|
Day One
Sept 2, 2009 14:37:31 GMT -5
Post by Pleonast on Sept 2, 2009 14:37:31 GMT -5
Beautiful, bright and fresh Day has dawned. Unfortunately, the ugly work of rooting out evil, corruption and malaise must begin.
It is Day One, which ends Tuesday, September 8.
|
|
|
Day One
Sept 2, 2009 14:53:30 GMT -5
Post by Sister Coyote on Sept 2, 2009 14:53:30 GMT -5
Awight, let's get this party started.
Speaking of Mafia, not necessarily Conspiracy: I am generally opposed to mass claims. I am generally opposed to lynching the non-participant because it doesn't necessarily give Town a lot of useful information, however, if the option is lynching the non-participant or lynching someone who's being helpful to Town, well, bye-bye lurker. I firmly believe in Lynch All Liars. Town has no reason to lie. Related to that previous point, I believe Scum Will Do Anything.
I don't know how well any of this will translate to Conspiracy, but.
|
|
|
Day One
Sept 2, 2009 15:26:25 GMT -5
Post by peekercpa on Sept 2, 2009 15:26:25 GMT -5
Awight, let's get this party started. I am generally opposed to lynching the non-participant because it doesn't necessarily give Town a lot of useful information, however, if the option is lynching the non-participant or lynching someone who's being helpful to Town, well, bye-bye lurker. <snipped> i'll only speak from recent experience. if town, in NSFW, had lynched the lurkers they would have taken out fourty percent of the scum team and won handily.
|
|
Natlaw
Snark
Natlaw is a Modron short and stout.
Posts: 740
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Day One
Sept 2, 2009 15:31:18 GMT -5
Post by Natlaw on Sept 2, 2009 15:31:18 GMT -5
but?
On the mass claim in generally I also don't think it's a good idea - because if the scum just claim vanilla the only real effect is painting targets on the power roles. But here we got no vanilla (not listed under the roles and the previous game hadn't any) and a larger than normal not-town population. That means probably double claims / fake claims that can be tested. The rules have that a mass claim is neutral, but why? Is it because the various factions will try to balance it out by targeting each other instead of just town?
|
|
|
Day One
Sept 2, 2009 15:31:50 GMT -5
Post by Mister Blockey on Sept 2, 2009 15:31:50 GMT -5
I am completely 100% against blanket uncompromising positions!
.... wait.....
Seriously though, the instant you lock into a solid position, others will find ways to exploit that position and use it to manipulate your reactions to their own advantage.
Keep even your moderation in moderation.
|
|
|
Day One
Sept 2, 2009 15:41:31 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Sept 2, 2009 15:41:31 GMT -5
but? On the mass claim in generally I also don't think it's a good idea - because if the scum just claim vanilla the only real effect is painting targets on the power roles. But here we got no vanilla (not listed under the roles and the previous game hadn't any) and a larger than normal not-town population. That means probably double claims / fake claims that can be tested. The rules have that a mass claim is neutral, but why? Is it because the various factions will try to balance it out by targeting each other instead of just town? The mass claim in Conspiracy has had a chance to be tested (I think) twice. The game is designed in such a way that a mass claim early on will almost certainly end up with town losing. Particularly if the scum all claim truthfully. I don't remember exactly how it works, but I remember it being discussed at length in C2. That said, I think C2 was won by something similar to a mass claim late in the game. I don't quite remember the details anymore though.
|
|
|
Day One
Sept 2, 2009 15:42:13 GMT -5
Post by Sister Coyote on Sept 2, 2009 15:42:13 GMT -5
Well, the only blanket uncompromising position up there is Lynch All Liars, and I've not seen that go wrong yet. The others are my general feelings but I can be swayed to change my mind by individual circumstance.
|
|
|
Day One
Sept 2, 2009 15:45:02 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Sept 2, 2009 15:45:02 GMT -5
but? On the mass claim in generally I also don't think it's a good idea - because if the scum just claim vanilla the only real effect is painting targets on the power roles. But here we got no vanilla (not listed under the roles and the previous game hadn't any) and a larger than normal not-town population. That means probably double claims / fake claims that can be tested. The rules have that a mass claim is neutral, but why? Is it because the various factions will try to balance it out by targeting each other instead of just town? The mass claim in Conspiracy has had a chance to be tested (I think) twice. The game is designed in such a way that a mass claim early on will almost certainly end up with town losing. Particularly if the scum all claim truthfully. I don't remember exactly how it works, but I remember it being discussed at length in C2. That said, I think C2 was won by something similar to a mass claim late in the game. I don't quite remember the details anymore though. Yeah, it looks like I am going to be lazy in this game doesn't it? I'm really not, but I really don't want to go digging through an old game for details I am sure someone who hasn't played in/modded/designed nearly a dozen games since the last conspiracy game, might remember.
|
|
|
Day One
Sept 2, 2009 15:47:32 GMT -5
Post by bufftabby on Sept 2, 2009 15:47:32 GMT -5
I tend to dislike mass claims. There's often no tangible benefit, at least til the latter part of the game, a point when I'm far more inclined to go for a mass claim.
Lynching lurkers is a decent fallback plan, as well as a tiebreaker, in a game such as this with no subs/modkills for non-participation.
I also believe in Lynch Most Liars.
|
|
Meeko
FGM
I raccoon it's time to play Mafia
Posts: 2,474
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Day One
Sept 2, 2009 16:07:15 GMT -5
Post by Meeko on Sept 2, 2009 16:07:15 GMT -5
I am completely 100% against blanket uncompromising positions! All Generalizations are false. [Including This one] Only the Sith deal in absolutes [Except for the fact that I just stated an absolute.] There are two groups of people in this world, those that classify people, and those that dont. I dislike people who are prejudiced, and those people born from <insert country here>. I could get carried away here. ---- FWIW : Yes MHaye, it is exactly my line [Holy old Tv gameshow batman!] and it is my first crack at a *real* job. Nervous is the word of the day, or week.
|
|
|
Day One
Sept 2, 2009 16:21:15 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Sept 2, 2009 16:21:15 GMT -5
I am completely 100% against blanket uncompromising positions! .... wait..... Seriously though, the instant you lock into a solid position, others will find ways to exploit that position and use it to manipulate your reactions to their own advantage. Keep even your moderation in moderation. QFT
|
|
|
Day One
Sept 2, 2009 16:24:43 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Sept 2, 2009 16:24:43 GMT -5
Well, the only blanket uncompromising position up there is Lynch All Liars, and I've not seen that go wrong yet. The others are my general feelings but I can be swayed to change my mind by individual circumstance. I've lied as Town. Roosh has done it. NAF has done it. I'm sure there are others. The trick is doing it well, when the potential risks do not outweigh the potential payoff. People should weigh the explanation if someone is caught doing it, not just lynch them on principle, imho.
|
|
Merestil Haye
FGM
Grudge Keeper
[on:Slumming it in the Middle-Earth][of:In the halls of Manw
Posts: 1,077
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Day One
Sept 2, 2009 16:30:57 GMT -5
Post by Merestil Haye on Sept 2, 2009 16:30:57 GMT -5
One of the risks the lying Townie takes is the risks that his lie will be caught by the Town role that can do something about it unilaterally; the Vig.
Regarding that lie by Roosh. It was less than 30 minutes before the end of Day 7 that I decided to kill Parzival, and not Roosh - a decision I now regret, for more than one reason.
The game would have been very different if I had offed Roosh, not least that at that point he hadn't claimed his true role.
|
|
Trepa Mayfield
FGM
Does Not Follow Directions
The only kind of panda worth preserving.
Posts: 989
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Day One
Sept 2, 2009 17:02:05 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Sept 2, 2009 17:02:05 GMT -5
Well, the only blanket uncompromising position up there is Lynch All Liars, and I've not seen that go wrong yet. The others are my general feelings but I can be swayed to change my mind by individual circumstance. I've lied as Town. Roosh has done it. NAF has done it. I'm sure there are others. The trick is doing it well, when the potential risks do not outweigh the potential payoff. People should weigh the explanation if someone is caught doing it, not just lynch them on principle, imho. I've done it a lot!
|
|
|
Day One
Sept 2, 2009 17:23:31 GMT -5
Post by special on Sept 2, 2009 17:23:31 GMT -5
I for one, am suspicious of people who talk about what, in general, makes them suspicious. I agree that it's often bad for town to lie, but that is not an absolute. There are times when lying has proved beneficial. But, in general, it should be avoided. I think we need to be aware that I've noticed a noticeable drop in participation in many games. (If it wasn't noticeable, I wouldn't have noticed it ) I think we need to encourage eeryone to participate and continue participating. We're allowing our scum to escape suspicion by escaping participation. I'm not advocating an all-out lynch the lurker, but I am advocating a prod the fuck out of the lurker and shun them socially after the game if they continue to lurk.
|
|
|
Day One
Sept 2, 2009 17:29:00 GMT -5
Post by Nanook on Sept 2, 2009 17:29:00 GMT -5
Define Lurker. 1 post a day? 2 posts a day? 5 posts a day? No fluff posts? Only a few fluff posts? All the fluff posts they want as long as there's content too? This is the main issue with lynch the lurker. No two people agree on the same definition of lurker.
|
|
|
Day One
Sept 2, 2009 17:44:36 GMT -5
Post by Paulwhoisaghost on Sept 2, 2009 17:44:36 GMT -5
Put me on the list of supporters of Lynch ALL Liars.
|
|
|
Day One
Sept 2, 2009 18:05:25 GMT -5
Post by Mister Blockey on Sept 2, 2009 18:05:25 GMT -5
Put me on the list of supporters of Lynch ALL Liars. congratulations, you've killed an investigator
|
|
|
Day One
Sept 2, 2009 18:47:01 GMT -5
Post by Sister Coyote on Sept 2, 2009 18:47:01 GMT -5
Define Lurker. 1 post a day? 2 posts a day? 5 posts a day? No fluff posts? Only a few fluff posts? All the fluff posts they want as long as there's content too? This is the main issue with lynch the lurker. No two people agree on the same definition of lurker. Lurker: one who posts zero posts. Persistently. Not a low post-count poster. Someone who posts nothing but fluff is a "fluffer" (minds out of the gutter, deves), and will also probably be high on my "hang 'em high" list. congratulations, you've killed an investigator To clarify something, I (personally, can't speak for paul) am not speaking of a lie of omission as a lie, nor, say, a partial claim (as opposed to a soft claim, which is something else that annoys me). Not giving all the pertinent facts is not a lie. A lie of commission rarely helps town (saying that you know X because you're Y, when you're really Z, is -- so long as X is true -- not a lie of the sort to which I am opposed. I have nothing against investigators or other informative roles trying to protect themselves.)
|
|
Gir!
FGM
EVIL Demon Goddess Mod
What? Kat is sweet and innocent!
Posts: 691
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Day One
Sept 2, 2009 18:59:52 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Sept 2, 2009 18:59:52 GMT -5
In general or in this particular game, Blockey?
In general, I believe that an investigator has a good chance of getting by without lying until s/he's ready to claim (although, I tend to die early when I'm an investigator, so I could be wrong).
In this game, I have no idea since the lack of Vanilla Town takes away the possibility that a power role could imply that they're Vanilla, but if there's a mass claim, I wouldn't be surprised if investigators and even more so protective roles, felt the need to lie and I really wouldn't blame them either.
|
|
|
Day One
Sept 2, 2009 19:01:30 GMT -5
Post by special on Sept 2, 2009 19:01:30 GMT -5
To clarify something, I (personally, can't speak for paul) am not speaking of a lie of omission as a lie, nor, say, a partial claim (as opposed to a soft claim, which is something else that annoys me). Not giving all the pertinent facts is not a lie. A lie of commission rarely helps town (saying that you know X because you're Y, when you're really Z, is -- so long as X is true -- not a lie of the sort to which I am opposed. I have nothing against investigators or other informative roles trying to protect themselves.) So, if it rarely helps Town, it does sometimes help, but you're still against that 100%? So, it's better to make absolutes so you can avoid thinking rather than playing the game to Town's best advantage? I'm not even going to get into your definitions of lurker and how you're actually defining non-participator rather than a lurker.
|
|
|
Day One
Sept 2, 2009 19:49:36 GMT -5
Post by Sister Coyote on Sept 2, 2009 19:49:36 GMT -5
Actually, I used to define "lurker" as <5 posts per Day, but FCOD (I think it was) dinged me on that in the AT game. And since there's no mod-kill in this game for non-participation, well, it works out to the same thing.
I said it "rarely" helps town because I don't know if cookies is talking about lies of commission or of omission or something else. Personally, I have never seen a lie help Town (I've only ever seen Scum lie, to begin with), but I'm not willing to rule out the possibility that I could be wrong.
And no, Ed. I definitely plan to think.
|
|
|
Day One
Sept 2, 2009 20:21:34 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Sept 2, 2009 20:21:34 GMT -5
I'm not talking about lies of omission. I'll try and remember and/or dig up some examples.
|
|
|
Day One
Sept 2, 2009 20:48:36 GMT -5
Post by Mister Blockey on Sept 2, 2009 20:48:36 GMT -5
In general or in this particular game, Blockey? In general, I believe that an investigator has a good chance of getting by without lying until s/he's ready to claim (although, I tend to die early when I'm an investigator, so I could be wrong). In this game, I have no idea since the lack of Vanilla Town takes away the possibility that a power role could imply that they're Vanilla, but if there's a mass claim, I wouldn't be surprised if investigators and even more so protective roles, felt the need to lie and I really wouldn't blame them either. I was talking in general. I'm not saying an investigator has to lie, merely that there are circumstances for that kind of role where it would be better to lie and that we shouldn't yell out and remove that tool from a pro-town arsenal, while still leaving it in the hands of the anti-town groups. I'm not saying lie lie lie. Certainly think things through carefully before lying if your town. But don't get yourself killed over some misguided notion that you must be honest always, even when a well placed lie can achieve the same result AND keep a pro-town power role safe.
|
|
Death By Irony
FGM
The Former Mandate of Heaven/Current Gastard Night Mod
I'm my own mind-altering substance!
Posts: 109
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Day One
Sept 2, 2009 20:50:40 GMT -5
Post by Death By Irony on Sept 2, 2009 20:50:40 GMT -5
But it takes a special kind of Town-aligned bastard to (actively) lie to the Town. ;D
I tend to play by my gut when rooting out Scum. If a statement (or string of statements) seem off, I'll go back and look through a person's posting history to see if my hunch plays off. (Unfortunately, that does have a bit of confirmation bias if I'm paranoid.)
This often ends with me second-guessing myself to hell and back.
|
|
|
Day One
Sept 2, 2009 20:55:36 GMT -5
Post by bufftabby on Sept 2, 2009 20:55:36 GMT -5
But it takes a special kind of Town-aligned bastard to (actively) lie to the Town. ;D I agree very much with this. Lying is generally a bad thing to do in this game, but not to the point that literally lynching ALL liars is a sound strategy.
|
|
|
Day One
Sept 2, 2009 20:57:13 GMT -5
Post by Idle Thoughts on Sept 2, 2009 20:57:13 GMT -5
I firmly believe in Lynch All Liars. Town has no reason to lie. I disagree. Speaking as someone who has lied (and been tempted to lie) as town in past games and playing with other players who have lied as Town, I think there can be, at times, good reason/circumstances in which lying might be useful. Put me on the list of supporters of Lynch ALL Liars. That's retarded. I also see Cookies and (to an extent by the usage of the word "MOST" instead of "ALL") bufftabby are of the same mindset as I am. A lie of commission rarely helps town (saying that you know X because you're Y, when you're really Z, is -- so long as X is true -- not a lie of the sort to which I am opposed. I have nothing against investigators or other informative roles trying to protect themselves.) Again, speaking as someone who has done just this in past games as Town, I disagree..and obviously (since I'm telling you it happened), you'd have lynched a Town. Sometimes there is good reason to lie.
|
|
Gir!
FGM
EVIL Demon Goddess Mod
What? Kat is sweet and innocent!
Posts: 691
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Day One
Sept 2, 2009 21:03:43 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Sept 2, 2009 21:03:43 GMT -5
The example I like to use is Roosh's fake claim in Firefly, which kept him alive long enough to activate his backup investigator status. And we mods got a kick out of it.
|
|
|
Day One
Sept 2, 2009 21:19:37 GMT -5
Post by julie on Sept 2, 2009 21:19:37 GMT -5
Every time I form a solid opinion about something in mafia, something comes along to shatter it.
So... um... vote! Unless you're scum! And when you fail to vote as scum, be sure to drop a note to the whole game so that we can know that's why you're not voting and lynch...
Wait, this isn't going to work, is it?
|
|
Meeko
FGM
I raccoon it's time to play Mafia
Posts: 2,474
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Day One
Sept 2, 2009 21:30:31 GMT -5
Post by Meeko on Sept 2, 2009 21:30:31 GMT -5
How do we define lurker, once we throw " Meeko " into the mix?
But to not be seen as lurker [You guys can only hope for the day.] let me tell you where I am with this game, already, and it is something I have been mulling over. That is, I read the thread earlier, and tried to post it, but I feel I can post it now.
Why are we talking about claiming already? Did I miss something?
Further, the rules state that Recruitment might could be in the mix here. If we have recruitment in this game, a claim on Day 1 would be useless. A mass claim is best held for later, when the math works better for town. At this point, we have a VERY early game, and the possible threat of recruitment. Would Conspiracy be as classic as I hear that it is, if a claim would work? [Come to think of it, didn't Pleon even state that a mass claim would not help anyone?]
Not sure why we are talking about claiming so early. In hindsight, for LOST it would have worked perfectly. But, hey, If I could re-do lost, well, I wouldn't have shot Hurley.
Not that you care about that, just, Sawyer would not have shot Hurley.
To anticipate : It is a Geocaching Raccoon. The Avatar is from my Account over on Geocaching.com
To anticipate : A GPS sport in which you use co-ordinates to seek out and find caches and log books in which you sign your name and take and leave trade Items. My User name over there is Magic Meeko, and I leave Magic Cards in the caches I find.
Related to the hobby of Letterboxing, but I hear that activity is a LOT harder to do.
|
|