Meeko
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Day 2
Sept 21, 2010 16:41:32 GMT -5
Post by Meeko on Sept 21, 2010 16:41:32 GMT -5
Great, we already have two Vigilantes...and now we have a serial killer too! Welcome Countess! Sorry we've run out of hot chocolate... :: Looks at Marsh Man, and literally runs circles around him :: Run this one by me again? We had an SK claim? ::: Makes the woosh gesture ::: Or are you calling Mod a SK ?
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Day 2
Sept 21, 2010 16:52:49 GMT -5
Post by Suburban Plankton on Sept 21, 2010 16:52:49 GMT -5
Great, we already have two Vigilantes...and now we have a serial killer too! Welcome Countess! Sorry we've run out of hot chocolate... :: Looks at Marsh Man, and literally runs circles around him :: Run this one by me again? We had an SK claim? ::: Makes the woosh gesture ::: Or are you calling Mod a SK ? I'm calling our new guest a serial killer...but in a good way en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_B%C3%A1thory
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Meeko
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Day 2
Sept 21, 2010 17:22:21 GMT -5
Post by Meeko on Sept 21, 2010 17:22:21 GMT -5
:: Looks at Marsh Man, and literally runs circles around him :: Run this one by me again? We had an SK claim? ::: Makes the woosh gesture ::: Or are you calling Mod a SK ? I'm calling our new guest a serial killer...but in a good way en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_B%C3%A1thory::Starts the woosh gesture slowly with one hand, but stops it before it covers his head, and then turbo wooshes himself with the other:: Ah. So it was a woosh, just not where I was expecting it.
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Day 2
Sept 21, 2010 17:29:17 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Sept 21, 2010 17:29:17 GMT -5
Do I know this Elizabeth person?
Thanks for subbing in, whoever you are.
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Day 2
Sept 21, 2010 17:50:25 GMT -5
Post by special on Sept 21, 2010 17:50:25 GMT -5
I'd say insta-lynch would be scum, SK, mad bomber - that kind of roles. You know the not-Town-roles. I'm a bit confused by your question? Are you actually now saying that not only would you like to kill a Town vig based on the role (and not caring about the alignment) but that you would also lynch other townies, if their "powers" didn't match what you'd consider pro-town??? :: Scratches his head, and in a moment, becomes just as confused as Galadriel ::: but that you would also lynch other townies, if their "powers" didn't match what you'd consider pro-town??? Up and until the point we can confirm* scum. Has a town-vig ever been known to take out two or more town in a single night? [To be clear, the vig him/herself is not included in this count nor is any "gotcha" abillity - that is a bomb or triggered role] * Which we both know would be a rare occurrence, outside of a Death Reveal or another Mod interaction. Hence, I am using confirm to approximate confirmation, as much as Town, or rather Town-aligned players can get it. That being said, we are at day 1 and a half, and we are down a townie for the game. Short of Scum slipping on PIS, or better**, I would add my vote to a killing role. Again, from the expediency angle, to say nothing of the time angle [duration of the game entire]. To be clear, my stance on voting a Vig, regardless of alignment does change the closer we get to endgame. But, as someone else else has said, the risk is too great to get there. ** Scum directly claiming scum. Hey, up-thread someone said it was done, right? So, in order to avoid any errors a Vig might make in the early game, and despite their value in endgame, you'ree willing to waste a Day killing a suspected town player, yielding no useful alignment information and bringing us closer to endgame? Did I get that right?
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Day 2
Sept 21, 2010 20:03:00 GMT -5
Post by severe delays on Sept 21, 2010 20:03:00 GMT -5
::Starts the woosh gesture slowly with one hand, but stops it before it covers his head, and then turbo wooshes himself with the other:: Ah. So it was a woosh, just not where I was expecting it. I'm totally misunderstood you know. I never got a fair trial. Actually I got no trial at all. I've been reading but you all type too much so I've only finished Day 1. Please bear with me as I'm in the UK and it's 2am here so I shall refrain from posting any further until I've had time to get fully up to date. Mod, could you just PM me a quick and dirty lesson in how to do multiple quotes please? I'm not familiar with ProBoards and can't fathom how to do it but I don't want to disrupt the game with that sort of thing. Which means none o' you lot need reply to that bit. ;D
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Day 2
Sept 21, 2010 20:17:14 GMT -5
Post by peekercpa on Sept 21, 2010 20:17:14 GMT -5
::Starts the woosh gesture slowly with one hand, but stops it before it covers his head, and then turbo wooshes himself with the other:: Ah. So it was a woosh, just not where I was expecting it. I'm totally misunderstood you know. I never got a fair trial. Actually I got no trial at all. I've been reading but you all type too much so I've only finished Day 1. Please bear with me as I'm in the UK and it's 2am here so I shall refrain from posting any further until I've had time to get fully up to date. Mod, could you just PM me a quick and dirty lesson in how to do multiple quotes please? I'm not familiar with ProBoards and can't fathom how to do it but I don't want to disrupt the game with that sort of thing. Which means none o' you lot need reply to that bit. ;D scum tell.
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Meeko
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Day 2
Sept 21, 2010 21:44:17 GMT -5
Post by Meeko on Sept 21, 2010 21:44:17 GMT -5
So, in order to avoid any errors a Vig might make in the early game, and despite their value in endgame, you'ree willing to waste a Day killing a suspected town player, yielding no useful alignment information and bringing us closer to endgame? Did I get that right? :: Nods with enthusiasm and holds up a finger. Then he runs and gets the thickest, dustiest dictionary he can find. A smaller one would suffice, but where would the drama and comedy be in that? :: In principle you got it absolutely correct. ::Opens the tome, and thumbs to the Es :: Definition of EXPEDIENT1 : suitable for achieving a particular end in a given circumstance 2 : characterized by concern with what is opportune; especially : governed by self-interest The immediate course of action, that I am not party to, calls for taking random, that is, uninformed, unwise and unknown "shots" [excuse the pun] at players. I am against this, as I think I have made it clear. If that's not clear, we have the rest of the post to go. ::Produces a calculator, and failing to get it to turn on, tosses it aside :: I suck at math. However, I know that the probability of taking out townies with night kills is roughly double with a vig in play. More than double, if you Ed,are as you claim. What information is the vig going to use tonight? How is the vig going to decide who to shoot? Will the vig roll dice? [Been there, done that, it didn't work*.] Will the vig fall on the knowledge he has gained henceforth in the game? Day 2, if we can call it that, is not a foundation. I would argue it is probably closer to quicksand. How many players are in this game? What is the likelihood that this Halloween themed game is not a normal game**? Who is vanilla in this game? :: Shrugs, over emphatically :: A lot of unknowns. To turn the phrase, it would appear the Vig is bringing a gun to an Advanced Mafia show. Town is faced with a subset of these problems. We each have what, 1/25 th or so of the weight that a Vig has? Yet, even at that, the weight is getting to us. We mislynched yesterday. Who can say what would have happened if the Vig(s) had shot last night? Some people have mentioned that today is Day 1 all over again, and they have lamented over " lack of information ". Yet, don't death reveals also help Scum? Especially death reveals that illuminate on powers yet to be used. It sure would suck if the vig went after someone who never got to use their power - not even once. Oh, and Ed, Death Reveals would be the Ultimate Handshake. Wouldn't you agree? [OMG, Does Meeko finally understand Smudge? There might be hope for him yet!] On the information we do have, and know for certain : A town hider seems to be somewhat self contained. A passive role that again seems to be muted compared to the engaging nature of a vig. Indeed, as I understand the role, hider is essentially 1/25 vig. Perhaps other roles and their abillities mess this number up. The Vig on the other hand, engages at will - or worse, unchecked. If only town can stop the Vigs. If only there was some way we can kill the Vig before night. If only we knew the results of our lynch before it happened***. I'm appalled at players saying there is no such thing as an insta-lynch. There is a LOT of Scum motivation in declaring there is not such thing as an insta lynch.
As far as I am concerned A town-vig has the mere possibility of helping Scum more than Town. As far as the information goes that we have on Day 2, I consider a lynch for a Town Vig to be pretty much a safe, conservative, lynch****.:: Thumbs the Dictionary to " Monkey " :: Which brings me to use 2 of Expedient. What is opportune for town? Winning. How does town win? Town most often wins when threats to town are dead. :: Holds up a watch :: It takes time to do this. A LOT of time to do this. To say nothing of the uphill battle that Mafia is at the start for most games. I don't think we should hit fast forward on our game. Vig(s) are our fast forward. A game without vigs means less townie deaths. You all know this so well, that I'm not even going to entertain further argument. Self-serving? Hell Yes. But then again, I am town, and in the interest of Town I argue expediency. [Which is good, as I opened this line with the actual definition.] Oh, but we still have the information issue. What game hasn't come to the crossroads of Claiming? Granted, Claims in this game will probably be for things other than name. But, at least it will be on Town's clock, not a Vig's. Waiting to play one of your last cards is perhaps the best thing to do. It won't be rushed into by someone acting in towns best interest, by going off and doing something ill thought out. :: Looks to Ed again. Yes, Ed, Not Raj.:: Again, the Vig robs us of the time to do even this. And Now that I have made my point, I need not rob you of anymore time myself. I don't want to think how much time I robbed myself in writing this. * Sawyer, LOST Mafia, Yours Truly. ** Not calling this game Gastard. I am simply falling back on what others have said, based on the previous Halloween game, and lack of vanilla roles. I don't think anyone could argue that this game is a normal Mafia game. They need only look to their posting name, or their avatar. *** Ok. So if not, we lynch a Liar. Lynching a Liar is more pro-town than lynching a lurker. One stays in neutral, the other is in reverse, pumping the pedal. --- As an aside, there is A LOT of Mafia that I personally find counter productive. Hindsight is 20/20, sure, but why did we lynch TwilightGirl again? When do we learn from past mistakes ? **** Again, Scum could shoot themselves in the foot, on accident or otherwise, and then all bets would be off lynching a Townie today. But I'm not too sure that's going to happen.
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Day 2
Sept 21, 2010 22:01:10 GMT -5
Post by Dirx on Sept 21, 2010 22:01:10 GMT -5
Fine. Ignore all arguments to the contrary. Whatthefuckever, this argument is obviously going nowhere, and it's taking time away from finding scum (you said lynching a vig is a good alternative when you can't find scum? How 'bout you start looking for some! Killing someone you think is town is not going to help).
The vote I intended to place Yesterday was for Dexter, because of a similar "the vig is dangerous and I think he should die" argument. I thought it was scummy as all hell to vote for a player you otherwise think is town, but apparently at least three players all share this view. Raj's vote I understand, to a degree. He thinks there can't be more than one vig. That scenario isn't any sort of stretch to me, as I've detailed earlier, but whatever, it holds more water than "compulsive vigs are too dangerous."
I'll find a place to lay down a vote sometime tonight. I'm determined to talk about something else already, goddammit.
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Day 2
Sept 21, 2010 22:03:41 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Sept 21, 2010 22:03:41 GMT -5
Why policy votes and insta-lynches tend to suck:
Diversity of roles makes the game more fun. Random distribution of roles make games more fun. Randomly distributing roles that are just going to get the recipient killed...not so much fun. I have to assume that the effect of such things over time will result in a narrower palette of roles in common circulation...not so much fun.
This is all made under the assumption that there is also a random distribution of Town players who end up with lynch/claiming pressure early in the game. I have no data to back myself up, but that is an anecdote I'm comfortable with floating.
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Day 2
Sept 21, 2010 22:10:06 GMT -5
Post by Red Skeezix on Sept 21, 2010 22:10:06 GMT -5
Hmm, so we have a sort of counterclaim on stay puft. I'm not willing to throw my hat in with Raj right now because Raj is Ed and Ed is fond of gambits. I wouldn't put it past Ed to claim vig and try to get stay puft lynched with the follow through of "I guess there was two vigs". Yeah, so color me skeptical on the whole.
There is nothing so scummy as trying to get a player that you admit that you think is town, lynched. Marcel, if you believe stay puft is what he claims to be, then you think him town. And you are trying to get a player who you think is town lynched. I can see no protown motivation in that, only pro-scum motivation. All your arguements about how much damage a vig can do sound a lot more like self preservation or scum preservation to me.
vote Marcel
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Meeko
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Day 2
Sept 21, 2010 22:10:57 GMT -5
Post by Meeko on Sept 21, 2010 22:10:57 GMT -5
Why policy votes and insta-lynches tend to suck: Diversity of roles makes the game more fun. Random distribution of roles make games more fun. Randomly distributing roles that are just going to get the recipient killed...not so much fun. I have to assume that the effect of such things over time will result in a narrower palette of roles in common circulation...not so much fun. This is all made under the assumption that there is also a random distribution of Town players who end up with lynch/claiming pressure early in the game. I have no data to back myself up, but that is an anecdote I'm comfortable with floating. :: Holds up a finger :: Is a Scum an Insta-lynch? Wouldn't that Insta-lynch " suck " for the same reason? Isn't scum, "vanilla" scum, a randomly assigned role, that most often just gets the player killed? Yet, vanilla scum remain on the pallette. Vigs are worse than scum. Scum have one collective kill for the entire team, right? Vigs get a complete kill to themselves. God help us if the Vigs can willingly join a third party, or otherwise because PFK incarnate.
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Meeko
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Day 2
Sept 21, 2010 22:14:38 GMT -5
Post by Meeko on Sept 21, 2010 22:14:38 GMT -5
Hmm, so we have a sort of counterclaim on stay puft. I'm not willing to throw my hat in with Raj right now because Raj is Ed and Ed is fond of gambits. I wouldn't put it past Ed to claim vig and try to get stay puft lynched with the follow through of "I guess there was two vigs". Yeah, so color me skeptical on the whole. There is nothing so scummy as trying to get a player that you admit that you think is town, lynched. Marcel, if you believe stay puft is what he claims to be, then you think him town. And you are trying to get a player who you think is town lynched. I can see no protown motivation in that, only pro-scum motivation. All your arguements about how much damage a vig can do sound a lot more like self preservation or scum preservation to me. :: Sets out two dozen Wine Glasses. :: Or you know, it could just be Town preservation. But, the game has turned now. We have crossed the rubicon. UnvoteVote Marcel Much to say, not any of it for now. Cheers. Enjoy the Wine.So long, and thanks for all the fish.
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Meeko
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Day 2
Sept 21, 2010 22:25:12 GMT -5
Post by Meeko on Sept 21, 2010 22:25:12 GMT -5
:: chugs his wine, searches for a cigarette, and looks around for a light. ::
Anyone got a light?
[[And the real thing is, I don't smoke IRL, just seemed like a good time, in game, for a cig.]]
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Day 2
Sept 21, 2010 22:28:12 GMT -5
Post by Suburban Plankton on Sept 21, 2010 22:28:12 GMT -5
Ummm....
I know that this board doesn't always to the nested quotes thing all that well, so I need a bit of clarification here...
Marcel, did you just vote for yourself?
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Meeko
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Day 2
Sept 21, 2010 22:31:12 GMT -5
Post by Meeko on Sept 21, 2010 22:31:12 GMT -5
Ummm.... I know that this board doesn't always to the nested quotes thing all that well, so I need a bit of clarification here... Marcel, did you just vote for yourself? :: Nods :: :: pours Plankton some wine ::That I did my friend, that I did. Nothing personal on my vote for you, is there?
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Meeko
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Day 2
Sept 21, 2010 22:41:15 GMT -5
Post by Meeko on Sept 21, 2010 22:41:15 GMT -5
::: Looks around and sees no one else coming to partake of the wine he poured :::
Talk about no one showing up at your funeral.
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Meeko
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Day 2
Sept 21, 2010 22:43:41 GMT -5
Post by Meeko on Sept 21, 2010 22:43:41 GMT -5
::: Offers some Wine to Columbo :::
I was of the impression that you liked Wine.
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Day 2
Sept 21, 2010 22:47:12 GMT -5
Post by Paulwhoisaghost on Sept 21, 2010 22:47:12 GMT -5
Chitter?
Little Indian Girl: I dunno Meeko.... what are the odds that Blockey would make the mime a Jester? It follows the logic I have seen from Blockey in the past....
Meeko: Chitter chitter
Little Indian Girl: Okay Meeko, I agree.... Marcel may not have done anything blatantly scummy, but all of his positions, and now his play is flat out anti-town.
Vote: MARCEL
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Day 2
Sept 21, 2010 22:48:41 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Sept 21, 2010 22:48:41 GMT -5
Add a "town" qualifier or two to my previous post and you should get my drift. And before you ask, I do think it is somewhat more fun to be a town player who is killed by a compulsory town vig than to be a compulsory town vig who is lynched in a compulsory fashion by his/her teammates. Ymmv.
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Day 2
Sept 21, 2010 22:53:58 GMT -5
Post by Suburban Plankton on Sept 21, 2010 22:53:58 GMT -5
<drinks>
Mmmm...cherry, plum, and is that a hint of chocolate there? Very nice...
And if nobody else is going to drink, I'll have another glass, thank you...
I don't suppose there's any Dry Jack in the pantry? If not, Parmeggiano Reggiano would do nicely too..
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timmy
Mome Rath
In the frozen land of Nador they were forced to eat Robin's minstrels. And there was much rejoicing
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Day 2
Sept 21, 2010 23:02:05 GMT -5
Post by timmy on Sept 21, 2010 23:02:05 GMT -5
What the hell?
Marcel just went and voted himself. That makes no sense. If he's Town, what is his motivation? To draw out Scum?
If he's Scum, is he trying to pull votes from a potential front-runner?
I have a feeling he's trying to back out of the game. Maybe it's not to his liking. He's exhibited erratic behavior but I was interpreting that as him trying to stay in character while dealing with a posting restriction.
It's a cruel world.
vote Marcel
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timmy
Mome Rath
In the frozen land of Nador they were forced to eat Robin's minstrels. And there was much rejoicing
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Day 2
Sept 21, 2010 23:05:47 GMT -5
Post by timmy on Sept 21, 2010 23:05:47 GMT -5
Chitter? Little Indian Girl: I dunno Meeko.... what are the odds that Blockey would make the mime a Jester? It follows the logic I have seen from Blockey in the past.... Hrm... It wouldn't be unrealistic to expect this. But I'm willing to take that chance that he's not a Jester.
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Meeko
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Day 2
Sept 21, 2010 23:06:04 GMT -5
Post by Meeko on Sept 21, 2010 23:06:04 GMT -5
Marcel may not have done anything blatantly scummy, but all of his positions, and now his play is flat out anti-town. Vote: MARCEL You think me to be scum, as indicated by your vote. Yet, I voted for myself as well. Is that play anti-town too ? Seems flat-out has a few bumps in it. Boy, you already drank half your glass there Paul. Not to worry, plenty more where that came from. Wine for everyone, on me. No Charge, not even a single copper. Oh, wait, Digger isn't playing in this game. Drat.
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Meeko
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Day 2
Sept 21, 2010 23:07:38 GMT -5
Post by Meeko on Sept 21, 2010 23:07:38 GMT -5
And I forgot my Post Restriction yet again.
::: Takes a few of the glasses of wine and chugs them like no tommorow :::
Did I find a light for my last cig yet?
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Day 2
Sept 21, 2010 23:09:51 GMT -5
Post by Inner Stickler on Sept 21, 2010 23:09:51 GMT -5
Ok, either you don't understand basic mafia strategy or you are really inept scum.
Vote: Marcel/meeko
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Meeko
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Day 2
Sept 21, 2010 23:14:03 GMT -5
Post by Meeko on Sept 21, 2010 23:14:03 GMT -5
Ok, either you don't understand basic mafia strategy or you are really inept scum. Vote: Marcel/meeko [/color][/quote] ::Pours Wine for Jack :: Like I said, tons of Wine for everyone.
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Meeko
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Day 2
Sept 21, 2010 23:18:03 GMT -5
Post by Meeko on Sept 21, 2010 23:18:03 GMT -5
Ok, either you don't understand basic mafia strategy :: ponders over this :: You mean I'm playing like you guys think I always play like. Noted.
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Meeko
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Day 2
Sept 21, 2010 23:38:34 GMT -5
Post by Meeko on Sept 21, 2010 23:38:34 GMT -5
::: Pours some more Wine for all those that want some. :::
You guys just might want to take note of the people voting me.
::: Passes out crayons and loose leaf notebook paper :::
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Day 2
Sept 22, 2010 0:42:22 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Sept 22, 2010 0:42:22 GMT -5
Eventually there will be a string of games for which Town Vigs will be instrumental to Town wins and who hit 2 scum for every innocent they kill. If that were to happen, Mr. Mime would you reconsider your policy? It just seems like you're clinging to anecdotes in a gambler's fallacy sort of way.
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