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Post by KidVermicious on Feb 7, 2011 18:25:45 GMT -5
What I do find strange and intriguing is that I've had at least two games on Giraffe with this rule and no one objected. So it really blew me by surprise when you spoke against it. Because I never had thought it could be viewed this way. As Ed said - I only offered to provide color. Players have to think up the claim and have to figure out how to use it. I wouldn't dream of adding anything or suggesting claims. No way. Ever. I think a mod should set up the game and run it - not play or interfere. See, and this is the part that I missed, and I wouldn't have objected nearly as strongly if I had understood.
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Post by special on Feb 7, 2011 18:45:07 GMT -5
The way I see it, even someone without any knowledge of the theme could look it up on Wikipedia and say, "I want to be Boba Fett and a Vigilante/Doctor who can kill or hide every Night." and then the mod could create the color part of the role PM in their own style.
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Post by Pleonast on Feb 8, 2011 10:09:27 GMT -5
I see where you are coming from - and I don't dismiss the point of view. However when that is said I hate the fact that I cannot fake a proper PM. I know I could in Danish and I know I fail in English. So my point of view is that when I'm the mod it's almost impossible for others to fake a role-PM. The very same way I have failed when ever I have tried. The real problem is the strange insistence of moderators/designers in having closed setups. I forget if you've played in my Conspiracy games, but all possible role PMs are quoted in the rules. The only things missing are the secret powers, but since most players don't have those, there's no need to try to write one.
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Post by special on Feb 8, 2011 11:55:19 GMT -5
I see where you are coming from - and I don't dismiss the point of view. However when that is said I hate the fact that I cannot fake a proper PM. I know I could in Danish and I know I fail in English. So my point of view is that when I'm the mod it's almost impossible for others to fake a role-PM. The very same way I have failed when ever I have tried. The real problem is the strange insistence of moderators/designers in having closed setups. I forget if you've played in my Conspiracy games, but all possible role PMs are quoted in the rules. The only things missing are the secret powers, but since most players don't have those, there's no need to try to write one. I think closed set-ups are more fun for the moderators. They get to enjoy seeing the players figure it all out. I hosted an open set-up on the Dope, and I think it was an enjoyable game. Though it was much simpler than Conspiracy. And we've had a couple of F11 games on Giraffe as well.
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Post by Pleonast on Feb 8, 2011 13:01:26 GMT -5
I think closed set-ups are more fun for the moderators. They get to enjoy seeing the players figure it all out. Huh. I think my fun comes from watching the game unfold. Maybe that's not so different. But I see figuring it out as a detriment to playing the game, since it forces the players to to guess what the mod was thinking, rather than looking at other players' alignments.
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Post by special on Feb 8, 2011 13:04:01 GMT -5
I think closed set-ups are more fun for the moderators. They get to enjoy seeing the players figure it all out. Huh. I think my fun comes from watching the game unfold. Maybe that's not so different. But I see figuring it out as a detriment to playing the game, since it forces the players to to guess what the mod was thinking, rather than looking at other players' alignments. Well, a game like the Conspiracy ones are complex even open and so are great to watch unfold. A simpler one has fewer pieces and becomes a different game. There's no guessing what the mod might have done or not done. I think some people really do enjoy that as much as playing the game.
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Post by Pleonast on Feb 8, 2011 13:40:29 GMT -5
There's no guessing what the mod might have done or not done. I'd say the problem is that there is guessing what the mod might have done or not.
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Post by Paranoia on Feb 9, 2011 17:15:59 GMT -5
Dammit why'd I get hit.
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Post by special on Feb 9, 2011 18:07:25 GMT -5
I guess they were out to get you
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Total Ullz
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Post by Total Ullz on Feb 10, 2011 6:13:58 GMT -5
I am starting to be a bit worried by all the players that seem to busy to play the game. I know it's to be expected - but it just seems a bit early in the game for so many not to get involved.
In the wiki I once read that to design a good game, the moderators should come up with some novel mechanism in the game for players to discuss Day 1.
But how do a moderator help people keeping interest in the game in the later Days?
Maybe I'm just being paranoid...
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Post by Pleonast on Feb 10, 2011 9:59:08 GMT -5
As I mentioned in a spoiled thread on the SDMB, I think the problem is our group's penchant to lynch the active players. A player who contributes little is unlikely to be lynched. So low participation becomes a self-reinforcing survival strategy. I wish I knew how to fix it.
My multi-vote system is one attempt. I'm thinking of adding more. Maybe make it easier for the Vig to kill players with low participation.
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Post by Total Ullz on Feb 10, 2011 10:13:25 GMT -5
I agree. It's a HUGE part of the problem - that we lynch the talkers. And I do know we can't go by the numbers of posts alone.
I'm been playing with different idea to get people to post more actively in the games they are in. The final vote-system was one of those ideas - it seems to just accomplish that people will post once a Day why they are no posting. But maybe it will have some effect later in the game...
I've also been thinking about having a Day 1 without handing out the powers and then simply to assign the "highest" power to the player with most posts. So that scum re-director would be the scum with the most votes and have the most outspoken townie become cop.
I guess we have to give it some time and when different mods start to reward activity then it will - over time - have some effect.
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Post by Pleonast on Feb 10, 2011 11:27:14 GMT -5
I've also been thinking about having a Day 1 without handing out the powers and then simply to assign the "highest" power to the player with most posts. So that scum re-director would be the scum with the most votes and have the most outspoken townie become cop. That's an interesting idea, but it might be difficult to balance. Scum could then preferentially target the active players who are not scum. But of course town knows they'll do that, so maybe the scum won't. Worth trying, perhaps, but expect a lot of swing, I think.
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Post by BillMc on Feb 10, 2011 11:58:45 GMT -5
I've also been thinking about having a Day 1 without handing out the powers and then simply to assign the "highest" power to the player with most posts. So that scum re-director would be the scum with the most votes and have the most outspoken townie become cop. That's an interesting idea, but it might be difficult to balance. Scum could then preferentially target the active players who are not scum. But of course town knows they'll do that, so maybe the scum won't. Worth trying, perhaps, but expect a lot of swing, I think. or play day 1 blind..... reveal half the roles at the start of n1, and half at the start of n2. might take a little work on the balance but it could be motivational to see what powers you may get as the game progresses
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Post by Total Ullz on Feb 11, 2011 7:29:05 GMT -5
The balance would be tricky. But I have a theory that the more players can affect their own role in a game - the more fun. And with more fun will follow more participation.
I've also been playing with the idea of making some sort of "reward" for posting/participation. Maybe every player with a vote every Day gets some sort of bonus. Or players with a lot of post can "remove" a vote the following Day.
Stuff that makes it more fun to post - because you gain from it inside the game.
I know it's not that easy to compare posts with participation. Last game as scum I just posted an awful lot to pretend to be active and "pro-town". To hide my lack of scum-hunting.
And I'm not trying to get the amount of fluff up in games. Just have people more active from the start.
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Post by Pleonast on Feb 11, 2011 9:50:14 GMT -5
Hmm, that reminds me of the SS Insipid game I ran. Power roles were public and attached to the players' positions along a ranking list. If a player was killed or lynched, all the players below advance up, filling any empty power roles.
I'll have to run it again.
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Post by Total Ullz on Feb 11, 2011 13:20:33 GMT -5
Hmm, that reminds me of the SS Insipid game I ran. Power roles were public and attached to the players' positions along a ranking list. If a player was killed or lynched, all the players below advance up, filling any empty power roles. I'll have to run it again. That sounds fun - what did you do with the scum powers? Did they also get reassigned?
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Post by Høøpy Frøød on Feb 11, 2011 15:06:33 GMT -5
Hmm, that reminds me of the SS Insipid game I ran. Power roles were public and attached to the players' positions along a ranking list. If a player was killed or lynched, all the players below advance up, filling any empty power roles. I'll have to run it again. That sounds fun - what did you do with the scum powers? Did they also get reassigned? There were no powers reserved for scum or town. All powers were open, initial distribution was determined randomly, and all who had them were known to have them. The alignments were the unknown part. There might have been a secret power on each side or so, though, I don't recall for certain. It was an interesting one to follow spoiled. IIRC, It was also apparent over time that as it was designed scum had a bit of an advantage. I vaguely recall discussions we all had on how to better balance it.
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Post by Total Ullz on Feb 12, 2011 9:34:44 GMT -5
So it would be sort of a role-the-dice and see what power you have for a circle (one Day and one Night). I like that - it will make it very difficult to "claim" to avoid a lynch (one of my main concerns when designing a game).
Where was the game played? I'd love to see the spoilers to that one!!!
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Post by special on Feb 12, 2011 10:58:48 GMT -5
That reminds me of a game I was thinking of playing. I was going to have maybe 4 roles available. Protector, Watcher, Vigilante, and Vanilla. Everyone gets to pick their role, and then is randomly assigned an alignment.
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Post by Total Ullz on Feb 12, 2011 11:07:23 GMT -5
Sounds like fun - but how would you balance the game if 3 picked vig and all were assigned "scum"? But I bet you're not going to tell me, are you? I bet you'd rather I played and figured it out
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Post by special on Feb 12, 2011 11:17:47 GMT -5
Sounds like fun - but how would you balance the game if 3 picked vig and all were assigned "scum"? But I bet you're not going to tell me, are you? I bet you'd rather I played and figured it out I actually did think about that. I might run it as a mini at some point.
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Post by Rysto on Feb 12, 2011 12:51:13 GMT -5
The real problem is the strange insistence of moderators/designers in having closed setups. I can't speak for all moderators, but the Terminator game on the SDMB really soured me on open setups. I think that they're a lot harder to balance than many people realize. I realize that Conspiracy has its ways of balancing the huge information benefits of an open setup, but it's not an easy problem.
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Post by Høøpy Frøød on Feb 12, 2011 15:01:45 GMT -5
Where was the game played? I'd love to see the spoilers to that one!!! The game was on the Dope. A search on "Insipid" will probably bring it up. (I'm too lazy to do it.) Pleo would have to give you the link to the spoilers (assuming they're still around somewhere).
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Post by Total Ullz on Feb 13, 2011 7:08:13 GMT -5
The game was on the Dope. A search on "Insipid" will probably bring it up. (I'm too lazy to do it.) Pleo would have to give you the link to the spoilers (assuming they're still around somewhere). I don't think it's listed on our wiki - so I should see if I can fix that as well. If the spoilers still exist I'd love a link to them as well.
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Post by Pleonast on Feb 14, 2011 11:28:41 GMT -5
I've updated the game wiki page to include the spoiled links. I'll go through my notes and refine the rules. If I don't win the upcoming full-game slot, I'll run it as a mini. The real problem is the strange insistence of moderators/designers in having closed setups. I can't speak for all moderators, but the Terminator game on the SDMB really soured me on open setups. I think that they're a lot harder to balance than many people realize. I realize that Conspiracy has its ways of balancing the huge information benefits of an open setup, but it's not an easy problem. Interesting. I'm not familiar with that game, so I can't comment on it. I consider open setups easier to balance. Players have more information and can thus make better decisions about what to do. And that means it's easier to for designer to estimate what the players will do. It seems to me that in closed setups, players spend a lot of time trying to understand the rules and second-guessing the game design. And that means they have a harder time finding the optimal actions.
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Post by Mahaloth on Feb 14, 2011 14:03:50 GMT -5
What a terrible game I played. I am ashamed.
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Post by KidVermicious on Feb 16, 2011 8:23:13 GMT -5
CIAS smells scummy.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Feb 16, 2011 10:51:40 GMT -5
Well, I was hoping I'd last a little longer, but I hope I was able to help in the short time I was in the game.
KidV, I can't speak for anyone else, but the reason I voted for you was largely influenced by the fact that you made a late claim and didn't put vote on the table. If you had cast a vote for anyone, I probably would have unvoted you.
But I think it wouldn't have made much difference, because I think most of the people who lynched you weren't around after you claimed anyway.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Feb 16, 2011 10:53:07 GMT -5
What a terrible game I played. I am ashamed. Well, if it helps you feel any better, I knew you were Scum as soon as you opened your mouth on Day 2.
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