Night Two

[storyteller0910]

The Day hadn't nearly matched its predecessor in terms of contention or in terms of pure volume. Pleonast was again a central focus of discussion, but on the whole colonists shellshocked by the untimely death of so many loyal citizens stared at one another, with only an occassional comment breaking the still.

After a bit, the participant known as Diomedes decided to slip away from the Town Hall for a brisk walk. He circled Scott Glen, walked through the rose garden adjacent to the Town Hall, and paused to pet a fluffy cybernetic bunny near the fountain outside. His expression was one of peace.

When he arrived back at the Town Hall, he was surprised to find that the artificial daylight had all but slipped away, and that in his absence, he had become the colony's chief target. The reasons for this have faded into antiquity. After a brief attempt to answer the charges against him, Diomedes calmly accepted the inevitability of what was to come. He cooly ascended the platform of his own accord, sat in the chair, and waited for Governor Rugger to finish the task.

Governor Rugger was up to the job. When it was done, the Coroner took fairly little time to pronounce the regrettable verdict.

Diomedes, a Vanilla Colonist, is even silent-er than he was toDay.

--------------------------------------

Night Two begins now. Any unused Day actions are lost for Day Two. The Night will end, technically, on Saturday morning, November 31, at 5:00AM EST. Please submit all Night actions to me via PM by that time. You may change your action as many times as you wish; I'll use the last PM I receive before 5AM Saturday as your official action. The Night will end early if all Night actions are received prior that time, and if I'm still awake to get them.

Happy Night!

[Pollux Oil]

Aw, phoo.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

Great death scene, though, story!

[RoOsh]

Updated Vote Count:
Votes Day 1: FINAL COUNT
Pleonast (5) - kassia, Santo Rugger, diggitcamara, Roosh, Diomedes
zuma1.0 (6) - Cookies, Kat, Yattara, zeriel, Death by Irony, Sinjin
CatinaSuit (4) - NAF1138, drainbead, hockey monkey, episodeofblonde
zeriel (3) - CatinaSuit, Captain Klutz, mhaye
Kat (2) - Pleonast, Parzival
NAF1138 (1) - Hal Briston
mhaye (1) - atarus
kassia (1) - zuma
Non-Voters: BlasterMaster (Zuma2.0), HazelNutCoffee (Tragic)

Votes Day 2: 18 Votes of 21
Diomedes (9*) - drainbead, atarus, Parzival, CometotheDarkSideWeHaveCookies, kassia, Tragic, episodeofblonde, DeathbyIrony, *Dio self votes in final 5 mins
Pleonast (5) - Santo Rugger, diggitcamara, sinjin, Roosh, zuma 2.0, [Diomedes*]
kassia (2) - NAF1138, Pleonast
Death by Irony (1) - Captain Klutz
Zeriel (1) - mhaye
Non-Voters: (3): Hal Briston, Yattara, Zeriel

Once again with the Confirmed Townies bolded.
Any chance Hal's been keeping up with his Vote chart thing that he's made in the past?

:sigh: Here's hoping for better luck in the Morning.... And perhaps a chance for everyone to catch up, since this Day was only half as long as Day 1....

[Parzival]

Shoot. I realized a bit too late that lynching this lurker isn't going to reveal all that much information. At the end of the Day I didn't find him the most likely to be scum, either. By "end of the Day" I mean just that - about 3 minutes past 2. It was too late to change my vote, and it wouldn't have mattered, but zeriel keeps looking scummier.

Since the Day was so slow, maybe we could at least have some fruitful discussion in the Night? It ought to help us to have more time to talk, but somehow it hasn't happened. (Last Night being on a holiday probably explains that, but unless St. Grwst is a big deal to you, we should get some posting tonight.)

[episodeofblonde]

Damn it.

I understand the desire to have a fruitful night after an unfruitful day, Parzival, but it could be dangerous to try and do too much serious discussion. Of course, if you've got something to say, waiting is just as dangerous, in this bloodstained Colony!

[Tragic]

Well [censored]...

Sorry Dio! <3

[Drain Bead]

Balls.

Not sure what else to say right now.

[Idle Thoughts]

Oh, there's a November 31st now? Wow! My calendar has it all wrong.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Well hell.

[Santo Rugger]

admin said:

Oh, there's a November 31st now? Wow! My calendar has it all wrong.

Didn't you hear? They changed that along with the shift in the start (end?) of daylight saving time this year. My computer has the patch, but my paper calender must have been printed and shipped before the decision was made on February 29 of this year.

[zuma]

Sorry to see you go, Diomedes.

[Zeriel]

We're in Night 2 now, and I'm not sure we have anything more to go on, necessarily, than we did at the beginning.

We know that we are, as a town, having average luck pulling scum out of the hat--namely, that we haven't had much luck so far.
We know that the scum are either lucky or they saw something in Kat that's too subtle for me to have seen.

Hopefully the number and people killed will give us some better idea of the closed structure of the game--and hopefully, it's not three townies again. =(

Sorry, Dio. I'm going to go back over that and see what I can see--I was GOING to vote for you, even if I didn't.

[Zeriel]

So I just remembered what was itching at the back of my head on Day Two about Dio--namely, the whole magic bag thing was a lot of inflation from a bunch of people. All he REALLY said was he had his mind made up for a vote, and then decided to think it over more when he saw the night kills. Then he disappeared.

I should've checked that before the Day was over, but this week in real life killed me.

ToMorrow, I think we might want to look at Roosh and drainbead--early yesterDay, they respectively started talking loudly about Dio's "magic bag" and started the voting on him.

I'm not saying I think they're both scum--I am saying that I feel really weird about the town's foci yesterday and I'm mulling over one of them. Someone else maybe want to look over how Pleo's votes accumulated and who the loudest voices were?

[RoOsh]

zeriel said:

ToMorrow, I think we might want to look at Roosh and drainbead--early yesterDay, they respectively started talking loudly about Dio's "magic bag" and started the voting on him.

Are you sure you mean Me? As this caught me off guard (Especially since I never cast a Vote for Dio, so I went back and checked my posts).

I mention Dio I'll quote myself in my entirety on him in italics:
Reply #22: Diomedes-You pulled out the "magic shiny bag" during the night. And you lived to tell about it. You said you have promised to share when you gather your thoughts, I await to hear your ideas.

And then I mention him again Post 79:
Dio- Still waiting for his Magic Bag reveal.

and then finally yesterday in Reply #124, Where I get really pissed off at the idea of Lurkers and I start bitching:
Dio's failure to appear, with the knowledge that's he's CHECKED the boards within 24 hours, but failed to post in 4 days... Makes me think he's a lurker. And I'm starting to think that we should get rid of the Lurkers, because people who aren't posting aren't contributing.
And then at the end of that post i mention: "If this keeps up, I may be in favor of just voting for the Lurking people... and Dio will be the first one on that List."

But then of course, Today he shows up. And dies. But he posted and voted during his time here, So that kinda ended the whole "Dio is a lurker" issue from me.

But that's about all i ever mention of Diomedes. Yesterday I was focused actually on Sinjin and Pleonast mostly. And I think I need to change my style. I think I have tunnel vision with You, Pleonast, and either it's biasing me, or I simply believe you're scummy, but at this stage I can't just focus in on one player. So starting on Saturday or whenever, if I'm still around I'm gonna have to restart from scratch, and start looking from the bottom up at who's suspicious, I think i've just tunneled into you, Pleo.... But I still don't trust you, and I still fear you're a Mad Bomber sort of Role. But i've gotta get a hold of my WIFOM....

But yeah, Zeriel, You sure you talking about Me when you're referring to the Dio thing?

I felt for the poor dude at first because I've been a victim of the Magic Bag many-a-times, and yeah, I got pissed at him, but that was last night when I found out he was possibly lurking (Checking in here, posting on the SD, but not posting in here). But the dude posted and at that point, I pretty much chalked him up as a goner. But i wasn't planning on voting for him after he posted, if you wanted my opinion on if i was planning on Voting for Dio.

[storyteller0910]

admin said:

Oh, there's a November 31st now? Wow! My calendar has it all wrong.

I am terribly, terribly stupid.

The Night will end, obviously, on December 1. Not November 31, which does not exist.

[Santo Rugger]

storyteller0910 said:

I am terribly, terribly stupid.
<snip>

I disagree.

But enough kissing the mods ass. I think I've got some pretty solid ideas about what's going on, so this post serves as a pledge to post them before I leave work tomorrow.

There's been some suspicious activity going on, especially concerning the end of the Days. I'm not sure what to make of it, though, because I've attacked people I've known were townies in the past, for "similar" activity. But in those cases, I was actively looking for reasons to call out posters. Now, I'm trying to figure out who's doing what, and why. To put out a short list right now:

Cookies
zerial
sinjin
mhaye

In no particular order, albeit slightly more ordered than my previous list. I'll expand on this and give reasons by the end of work tomorrow, this is no magic bag, it'll come before the end of the Night.

[Zeriel]

Roosh, you quoted the exact posts I was looking at when I cited you as being the first to draw attention during the day to his magic bag.

[RoOsh]

:shrug: alright... Your interpretation then vastly differs from mine then.

[RoOsh]

Now you've made me curious though...
How did YOU interpret my first two posts? (I'll admit my angry post was def. anti-Dio, but that was much later than what you're talking about).

Those first two posts though in my eyes seem quite innocous. Is it the fact that I said "Magic bag"?
What exactly are you reading into them, and can I try to clear up anything?

[Drain Bead]

Here's the thing. Had it just been the magic bag and the disappearance, without the stuff he did in Day One--namely creating the false dichotomy between the truthiness of Pleo and NAF's roleclaims where he seemed to assume that one had to be false if another was true, I don't think I ever would have pinged on him. I don't like it when people try to make (or break) connections between people--it seems scummy to me. I called him out on it during Day One as well, IIRC. As is, I came damn close to changing my vote when he came back, except I thought that I'd switch to Pleonast, and I figured if both of them were telling the truth that offing a claimed vanilla was the lesser of two evils.

Yesterday pretty much sucked. Way too much lurking. It limits our options as the Days go on.

[Zeriel]

I agree that YesterDay sucked hard in terms of information--we need more people to be PLAYING. Of course, I was flaked out this week due to new jobness.

Roosh, I'm just saying you were the first person on Day Two to make any big deal out of Dio, from my perspective. You and drainbead do realize that we don't have MUCH to go on here, so I'm staking out an area of analysis and looking at it.

Meta-strategy--night strategizing: good or bad for town?

[Drain Bead]

Fair enough, zeriel. If we can't call people out on their votes, what CAN we do? I just felt a little singled out there--there were like 10 votes on Diomedes and pretty much everyone was saying the same thing. I don't really feel as if I pushed something along or was particularly forceful in my indictment of him--ironically, I felt very much like I was waffling through most of Yesterday.

There are good arguments for and against night strategy. I tend to like it, because more information is always a good thing. It always seemed very artificial to me to have to put all discussion on hold right after we got a new piece of info. I see the argument that Night discussion might help the scum figure out who to eliminate, but who knows...it might help a Vig or other town power roles too. All in all, I think the info gained from Night talking balances out in favor of town.

[Death By Irony]

I can't promise any kind of Night analysis - projects due and stuff.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I am not going to be shy about speaking my mind at night. YMMV.

Santo: So I gather from your list that you're going to again come at me because I don't like your contributing to ties that you then get to break?

It is unfortunate that this particular topic was not put to bed prior to your election, but it wasn't. Perhaps I should have completely sanitized and anonymized my concerns regarding Govs and ties instead of using your name on Day 1, but I think it is quite clear if you read my posts that I have issues with the Gov role in general, and issues with you specifically. Yet you keep tying them together in ways that are misleading.

Gov issues:
1) The holder of the role can contribute to and/or cause a tie that s/he then gets to break, which allows the possibility of an anti-colonist Gov to tip the scales in a much more anti-town fashion, depending on what perfect knowledge s/he may or may not have on the tied lynch targets.
2) The election of the Gov carries a default level of WIFOM that changes as the game progresses. With each particular batch of WIFOM being unique to each election. Who voted for the winning Gov and why? Who didn't vote for the winning Gov and why?


Santos issues:
1) No one can trust you. (Arguably most if not all of us are also in this state right along with you)
2) People elected you, each for their own reasons which are not known to anyone but themselves, regardless of what they say their reasons were. Assuming that some of the actual reasons involve you specifically, and this is a list of issues I have about you specifically, I'm adding a line here that is obviously (imho) related to issue #2 above. Another thing that is obvious imho, is that whoever occupies the Gov role brings their own unique WIFOM contribution to the default WIFOM of the role.
3) You have so far demonstrated an unwillingness to acknowledge or try to compromise regarding the Gov role, and how you might behave while at the helm of the mechanics of that role in such a way as to try to eliminate some WIFOM for the rest of us.
4) You keep saying that I am advocating that you not get a vote, which is inaccurate and misleading.

I have suggested a possibility that the Gov (which happens to be you) could remove some WIFOM if they play through the Day such that they clearly communicate who they would vote for at any given moment, and not just vote unconditionally like every other player.

This is a hypothetical discussion that I think we should all contribute to sooner or later with respect to the Gov. Further, since the dynamics of the role change through the game, we should all probably keep talking about it as the game progresses.

Each Gov has the opportunity to self-impose conditions on their votes that would mitigate the tie-breaking power that comes with the role. Such vote conditions would not impact the ability of the Gov to speak their mind, strategize, or share their analysis or opinion.

So where exactly are the conflict between our perspectives here? Is it my perspectives on the general issue of the Gov that you don't like? My perspectives on you that you don't like? Both? Neither?

[RoOsh]

What about my Governor Tie Breaker suggestion I made on Day 2?
Would that help?

and Zeriel, I can understand the not much information to go on portion, and I guess our mileages actually DO vary. I used the term Magic Bag because i was (trying to) be witty. "Magic Bag" was the term that everyone gave my actions during Firefly (Where I'd post "I've got an idea! But I gotta go to class for 12 hours first!), and so it just felt nice to be able to throw that back at some of the people who've used that term against me. (Diomedes certainly being one of those players of FF).
I didn't give that that first line much thought, and just enjoyed using the term, but if you feel that's not the case, that's fine. I'll keep it in mind for future games (Perhaps I should have stuck a little smiley in there or something?).

But for the record, I like that term, and probably will continue to use that term: "Magic Bag"- for anytime where a post posts that they have something to share, but cannot share said info until a later time. The full term is Shiny Magic Bag, but still, I like the term, it amuses me. Sorry if it was a driving factor in turning people towards voting for Dio that certainly was not my intention when I made the post.

[Santo Rugger]

The following quotes are snipped heavily.

cometothedarkside said:

Santo: So I gather from your list that you're going to again come at me because I don't like your contributing to ties that you then get to break?

Yes. You've asked me to put myself in your shoes, which I've tried to do. I now ask you to put yourself in my shoes. If I think a certain player is the most scummy, darn right I'm going to vote for them. If it just so happens that that player is eventually involved in a tie, what the heck am I supposed to do. If I remove my vote, I didn't get a vote, and the town as a whole loses a vote. Statistics indicate that said vote is, at minimum, more than 50% likely to be a Colonist's. I feel I've got to vote for somebody. And it's going to be for the person I find most scummy. I feel this is something inherent in the role, and there is absolutely nothing I can do about, short of not voting for somebody who may end up in a tie. Look at Yesterday. I voted Pleo right out of the gate. How in the world could I have expected that a rush would form in the last 24 hours, leading to Dio becoming tied with Pleo. I'm going to address this specific point, irrespective of Guv discussion, before I leave work today.

It is unfortunate that this particular topic was not put to bed prior to your election, but it wasn't. Perhaps I should have completely sanitized and anonymized my concerns regarding Govs and ties instead of using your name on Day 1, but I think it is quite clear if you read my posts that I have issues with the Gov role in general, and issues with you specifically. Yet you keep tying them together in ways that are misleading.

Everybody else seems to consider it a dormant topic. You used my name on Day 1, and again on Day 2.

Santos issues:
1) No one can trust you. (Arguably most if not all of us are also in this state right along with you)
2) People elected you, each for their own reasons which are not known to anyone but themselves, regardless of what they say their reasons were. Assuming that some of the actual reasons involve you specifically, and this is a list of issues I have about you specifically, I'm adding a line here that is obviously (imho) related to issue #2 above. Another thing that is obvious imho, is that whoever occupies the Gov role brings their own unique WIFOM contribution to the default WIFOM of the role.

These two would have applied to any player elected to Guv when there was literally zero information to go on.

3) You have so far demonstrated an unwillingness to acknowledge or try to compromise regarding the Gov role, and how you might behave while at the helm of the mechanics of that role in such a way as to try to eliminate some WIFOM for the rest of us.

I have certainly acknowledged the Guv role, several times, in fact. I'm not sure what a fair compromise would be. I think your ideas and points may have more validity after I'm gone, and are points to be seriously considered by the masses in the next election. While I'm glad that you're encouraging the subject, you're not doing it in a manner conducive to finding scum, which is what we should be focusing our efforts on. I'm not sure how to eliminate WiFoM, as it will, by definition, always be present.

4) You keep saying that I am advocating that you not get a vote, which is inaccurate and misleading.

I have suggested a possibility that the Gov (which happens to be you) could remove some WIFOM if they play through the Day such that they clearly communicate who they would vote for at any given moment, and not just vote unconditionally like every other player.

How is that different than actually placing a vote, which shows up in vote counts, that players don't have to dedicate a mental check mark to throughout the game.

This is a hypothetical discussion that I think we should all contribute to sooner or later with respect to the Gov. Further, since the dynamics of the role change through the game, we should all probably keep talking about it as the game progresses.

How is it hypothetically. Twice you've slammed me, quite unhypothetically, for being involved in a tie. A tie that, according to you, "circumstantially" has you on the other side of. And "circumstantially" your vote heavily contributed to Pleo being saved. Pleo, the guy who's claimed to have a bomb with a trigger. Playing devil's advocate here, with Pleo as scum, it could require one day to plant, one day to trigger, and he simply fudged those details. Now, since you've effectively saved him two days in a row, the town is screwed in that respect if this speculation holds water.
[/quote]

Each Gov has the opportunity to self-impose conditions on their votes that would mitigate the tie-breaking power that comes with the role. Such vote conditions would not impact the ability of the Gov to speak their mind, strategize, or share their analysis or opinion.

I fail to understand how your proposed self-imposed conditions would do anything, except from possibly keeping me from voting for the person I find most scummy. Perhaps a third party could weigh in on this issue? Night is as good of a time to discuss it as any, and it wouldn't pollute the Day threads.

So where exactly are the conflict between our perspectives here? Is it my perspectives on the general issue of the Gov that you don't like? My perspectives on you that you don't like? Both? Neither?

I think I've summed up quite nicely in this post the sentiments I've been expressing (or trying to express) on this issue. However, in summary, I extremely dislike getting slammed, twice in a row for voting for who I think is most scummy. I didn't ask for this role. I didn't campaign for it. To be frank, I kind of expected to be the first to get the role because of my past allegiances. However, now that it's been bestowed, it's not going to change until I die.

I am willing to compromise, but I'm not willing to do it by not voting. Remember, every single player has a vote, and therefore, the ability to break a tie (admittedly, those involved in said tie cannot break it preferentially). Mine only If you can think of a mitigating scenario where I still get to vote, I will genuinely consider it's implementation. But remember, as per Roosh, "mechanical action plans = bad".

[Santo Rugger]

Roosh, can you remind me what your idea was, for the record?

[Santo Rugger]

[oog]If any of you have any interest in my sex life, go check out what happened to me last night: boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=446051 [/oog

[Pleonast]

pygmyrugger said:

I fail to understand how your proposed self-imposed conditions would do anything, except from possibly keeping me from voting for the person I find most scummy. Perhaps a third party could weigh in on this issue? Night is as good of a time to discuss it as any, and it wouldn't pollute the Day threads.

Even though it'll probably be mine own execution, I agree with Rugger on this. The Governor needs to be able to vote just like any other player. The Governor's tie-breaking mechanism is a separate mechanism. And he'll be accountable for both his regular vote and his tie breaker. If you don't like who the Governor is voting/tie-breaking for, criticize him for that, not the fact that he is voting/tie-breaking.

If I have time later today, I'll start my analyses for a Day Three vote.