|
Day One
Jan 28, 2008 21:28:20 GMT -5
Post by diggitcamara on Jan 28, 2008 21:28:20 GMT -5
And to add something a bit more substantial: Like more than one has said, Koldanar's presence, though more substantial since (s)he received a couple more votes, is still suspicious by the way (s)he has chosen not only to vote but also to justify his vote.
I'll keep my vote on him/her for now. Like someone upthread said: this Friday storyteller's plan should then put into effect. And I'll vote accordingly.
|
|
Death By Irony
FGM
The Former Mandate of Heaven/Current Gastard Night Mod
I'm my own mind-altering substance!
Posts: 109
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Day One
Jan 28, 2008 22:26:54 GMT -5
Post by Death By Irony on Jan 28, 2008 22:26:54 GMT -5
Wikipedia wrote:Sun Jian (155 – 191) was a military general and minor warlord during the late Eastern Han Dynasty and Three Kingdoms era in ancient China. He allied himself with Yuan Shu in 190 when warlords from eastern China formed a coalition to oust Dong Zhuo, a tyrannical warlord who held the puppet Emperor Xian in his power. Although he controlled neither many troops nor much land, Sun Jian's personal bravery and resourcefulness were feared by Dong Zhuo, who placed him among Yuan Shao, Yuan Shu and Liu Biao as the most influential men at that time. After the coalition disbanded in the next year, China fell into massive civil war. In 191, Sun Jian was killed in battle during an offensive campaign against Liu Biao. Top-of-the-page vote count:
6 - koldanar (Diomedes, diggitcamara, Roosh, drainbead, piratepete, atarus) 5 - Roosh (NAF1138, Pleonast, Pygmyrugger, CatInASuit, koldanar) 2 - Peasant Smurf (nesta, hawkeyeop) 1 - piratepete (hockeymonkey) 1 - NAF (ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)
|
|
|
Day One
Jan 29, 2008 1:26:24 GMT -5
Post by nesta on Jan 29, 2008 1:26:24 GMT -5
OK well, apologies for the slight delay, I wasn't in a position to post after getting home from Cricket. I understand real-life getting in the way of Mafia all to well, so I try to be forgiving of delayed posts. This reply is a good example of my failure to reply in a timely fashion. I did reread, and I didn't see anyone posting anything that screamed out "I'm Scum, lynch me" If you did see stuff like that, congratulations, you're a far better player at this game than me. My seeing everyone as scum doesn't make me a better player. I think it actually hinders my ability to find scum, since I tend to read every post looking for the scum angle, and I usually end up getting tunnel vision and going off in the wrong direction. I'm just overly paranoid. If you are town and don't play this way then maybe that makes you a better player then I am, but what bothers me about your posts so far is that surely something has stood out to you by now as somewhat scummy, and you might as well try to poke the scummy players and see what happens. If you really haven't seen anything that seems scummy I think you need to look harder. It doesn't have to be a sure sign that they are scum, this is Day 1 after all, but there are scumtells galore out there (many innocent I'm sure) so why not investigate them? And if you did see stuff like that, Apart from me apparently, why the hell aren't you sharing that? Since I'm the paranoid sort I tend to wait for the alarm bells to go off before making a case against someone. That happened with the post that prompted my voting for you. If I posted every scummy thing I saw about everyone in the game my strongest suspicions would be lost in the noise. It seems to me the main thing that twigged you, was the fact I mentioned twice that I wasn't voting yet. I was simply trying to be premeptive, before someone hauled me over the coals for not having voted yet, I was getting in first saying "yep, I know I haven't voted yet". Yes, that is the primary red flag that made me look more closely at you. I saw you explicitly saying that no one seemed scummy to you so you weren't voting yet, and I thought I'd seen a little too much of that sentiment lately since it is so opposed to my own gut reaction. After looking back through your posts I realized that you pointed this out in two out of three posts to the thread, and that there was very little content other than that. Why would you be worried about people hauling you over the coals for not voting? It was very early yet. Only around 50% of the players had voted at the time I voted for you. It seems defensive, and scum have a much better reason to be defensive than town this early. In relation to posting for the sake of it, The majority of the discussion between my posts was either from or about NAF & Roosh. And I thought, I would share my thoughts about them, especiailly given their position as the top two vote getters. I thought that was the idea here? It seems if I hadn't of restated my non-voting so far I would have been OK yes? Yes, the idea is to share our ideas, and I can accept that you didn't think either was scummy enough to vote for. You are correct, I probably wouldn't have voted for you if you hadn't again stated that you were holding off on voting. It is the lack of content combined with the explicit non-vote that seems strange to me. Also, if you had chimed in on the NAF / Roosh debate and taken a well reasoned stance against one of them or even another player I might have noted the non-vote but it wouldn't have been such a red flag. And as to needing to post, It was page 3 on Day 1 for christsakes and someone had already put up the lurkers post!!! I'm not the most chatty of people, in real life or here so yes I am accutely aware of not being seen as a lurker. I can relate to this, being a lurker myself, but that only goes so far. If you are scum I can see being hyper-sensitive to being on the lower end of the lurker count. If you are town it should be a prodding to provide more real discussion to the game. I admit that my vote was a little because your behavior seems scummy to me but also because whether you are town or scum I want to see more real discussion from you, and want to see you put yourself out on a limb to be judged. This early in the game I'm not above prodding people to gain more information. I look forward to you taking a firm stance on something soon. The rest of the post was addressed to NAF, but I would like to chime in: Anyway to sum up your point of attack NAF, yep I am a very agreeable person, & not confrontational by nature and unless I am very certain that someone is scum, I'm not going to stand up point the finger and start screaming my head off at them. Instead I will put my thoughts out there, in a balanced way. stating both reasons for and against what I'm thinking. The problem is that we are very rarely sure anyone is scum. If we all wait until we are sure before voting or accusing each other then the game will go nowhere and the scum would win every time. I can understand trying to weigh both sides of scumminess or not, and I try to do that, but I also realize I'm very bad at it. Once I get it in my head that someone is scum it's hard to shake it. At the same time, though, we are trying to find scum and once we think we have it's in the town's best interest to convince everyone else. I find that I'm a little aggressive and confrontational in this game, so if this just isn't your style perhaps we just play differently. Even if you don't want to be confrontational, though, if you are town you need to not be scared of being lynched and do your best to make a case against those you feel are scum. If that means I'm being agreeable or appeasing or (waffling) or (not being helpful by taking strong stances) so be it, that's the way I am and I'm not going to change, so if that means I get lynched early in the piece so be it. Lesson learned, I'm not cut out for mafia. Eh, we all have different play styles. If you enjoy these games then I would say you're cut out for mafia. If you don't then I guess not. I took a break after my poor showing as a sub in the Firefly game, so I think many of us feel put off by the game sometimes. It's a hard game not to take personally, but it is a game. Whether you are town or scum you can play whatever style you like as long as you enjoy it (I could cite examples, but I won't *cough* Mad*cough*) and you shouldn't let us tell you differently. If you aren't helping, though, it might get you lynched. For now I'm leaving my vote on you because I'm still trying to decide if you are a passive townie like you claim or scum trying to fly below the radar. I await your further participation.
|
|
|
Day One
Jan 29, 2008 3:45:43 GMT -5
Post by CatInASuit on Jan 29, 2008 3:45:43 GMT -5
However, Cat doggedly hanging on to one of his reasonings for voting Roosh (the Night 0 Pleonast thing) strikes me as very scummy. It was very clear to me during the Night that Roosh's vote was a joke vote, just like Diomedes' joke vote for CatinaSuit himself during Night Zero. (Strangely, this is acceptable, but Roosh voting for Pleonast is not!) It's a silly reason to include for voting for somebody, and even sillier to try and defend it. To turn around what he said to storyteller, I think CatinaSuit is a much better player than to rely on this kind of hokey vote reasoning. Thank you for the vote of confidence atarus However, it does prove that you didn't understand the point of my posts. Allow me to state it clearly: It was not the vote that was scummy, but the sudden retraction straight after it.However, I am keeping an eye on the other activity going on and not just limiting myself to proving Roosh is scum.
|
|
|
Day One
Jan 29, 2008 3:48:46 GMT -5
Post by CatInASuit on Jan 29, 2008 3:48:46 GMT -5
I'll do this bit in two parts. First things first. As far as I am concerned this is not acceptable. If you are going to play the game, it should be done on this board and not as the result of IM chat elsewhere. I agree with you fully. But to clarify, we weren't playing Mafia anywhere else. I was simply punning alot, and talking about my courses. The chat had nothing to do with Mafia, other than Dopers and myself were involved (so I use the term Mafia people rather than just Dopers). You can ask Kat and Atarus as well, as both were there to validate my statements. The vote that Dio put on me, was a result of NON-MAFIA talk, and had nothing to do with the game itself. I was still not a fan of that, and am still quite disappointed to see that the vote's still there with a weaker reasoning. So i agree with you on the Voting someone for OUT of game reasonings sucks. But I wanted to clarify that the vote had nothing to do with MAFIA being played or discussed really out of the game. OOG stuff first. Glad to hear that this was non-mafia stuff and thanks for clarifying. I really would hate to see the game stuffed by an IM conversation.
|
|
|
Day One
Jan 29, 2008 4:19:09 GMT -5
Post by CatInASuit on Jan 29, 2008 4:19:09 GMT -5
And now for this bit. Umm, I was the last person to confirm in the game, you had confirmed your role and its understanding a couple of days earlier. ie. You knew your role, so this part of your defence is false. Fair enough. I knew my role at that time. I should have said "some of us", rather than use myself as the subject there. So regarding when you placed your joke vote for PleonastYour previous statement said that you were not aware of your role. This statement says you were aware of your role. One of these statements is a lie. This one just doesn't make sense to me. How can you slip up on Night 0? The whole thing doesn't matter to begin with. To me, retracting a night 0 vote is the only logical thing, because it doesn't COUNT. It's based on NOTHING, and I'm not a fan of random voting. So to keep a vote based on no reason at all is simply against the style of play that I prefer. My entire post in Night 0 was this: 0.49: Vote Pleonast
Liar!
It was 3 words for god's sake. I assumed the vote didn't count on Day 1, so I don't really see myself as "retracting" the vote, because hell the post I was referring to was pleo saying he was a peasant. (0.46): Jan 18, 2008, 6:34pm, Death by Irony wrote: Pre-game smack talk goes here. To avoid metagaming, please confirm your role in thread. "Yep, I'm a peasant. But won't it break the game to have everyone confirm their role here?"- PleonastI called him a liar with no evidence, why? Because that's the sort of thing that you do at Nights when you're joking around sitting by a proverbial bar. There is no evidence nothing really going around there, and the fact that you would take such a vote seriously is REALLY puzzling. If someone posted in Night 0, "Hi, scum buddy X, hows it going?", do you think they would survive Day 1? No, Roosh, as I pointed out to atarus. It was not the stupid vote that caught my eye, but the hurried retraction straight after it. And yes, 1 minute later is hurried in this game. So you're saying... that Me and Pleo are on the same Scum team? And that on Night Zero, I called him out on the fact that he's lying about being a townie in order to what? To give myself a handicap for starting the game? Come on, CAIS, give me a LITTLE bit of credit here as a Mafia Player. This idea is just silly. Why would I do that? It makes NO sense at ALL. Who the hell would try to get rid of their ally BEFORE the game STARTED?? Ok, Roosh, I will credit you with as much intelligence as Cookies. Oh wait, she posted scum stuff in the Firefly game to a Night thread. How about as much as intelligence as Santo Rugger. Umm, maybe not, he did the same in Mafia: Sekham. You see, Roosh, intelligence does not mean you will not make a slip. So, by this statement though, do you believe then that Pleonast is also equally implicated as my Scum buddy, CaiS? Actually, yes. The corollary to this argument is that Pleonast is your scum buddy. I'm curious as to what your whole take on this "calling out my fellow scum" deal is on Night 0, because the logic here is REALLY weak, and not something I'd expect of you normally, Cais. You're certainly a strong player, and I respect you from last game. But REALLY? Night Zero? I want to hear more of this, just because it amuses me that this is such a weak reasoning to vote for me. (and in that vein, I will say that I am preparing my defense post, so I'll prolly check it out tommorrow night, and If i'm close still to being lynched, I'll post it then sometime on Weds or Thursday to give people enough time to not lynch me hopefully.) Roosh, I do not think you were selling out your fellow scum on Night 0. I think you just slipped. That's all. No grand scheme, no master plan. Just a slip. I look forward to the defence post, should be interesting.
|
|
Koldanar
Mome Rath
[on:I survived the apocralypse!][of:Into the void, go I]
Posts: 4
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Day One
Jan 29, 2008 8:28:57 GMT -5
Post by Koldanar on Jan 29, 2008 8:28:57 GMT -5
Sorry, two quick things : One, Monday is a class night, so I'm unable to check the boards. Two, I also have a client meeting today, and that means no boards at work either. Blah. I'll be back around some point tonight. And for general information, diggit, Koldanar is a he
|
|
RoOsh
FGM
Former BatMod
[on:Wanna see a magic trick?][of:See You, Space Cowboy....]
Posts: 284
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Day One
Jan 29, 2008 9:32:25 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Jan 29, 2008 9:32:25 GMT -5
And now for this bit. I should have said "some of us", rather than use myself as the subject there. So regarding when you placed your joke vote for PleonastYour previous statement said that you were not aware of your role. This statement says you were aware of your role. One of these statements is a lie. Yeah. Go look at the part of my quote up there that I've left in (i snipped it). That part is QUITE clarifying. I was aware of my role, and I pointed out, I should have used a better word in the first document. I was sloppy :shrug: If you wanna call that "lying", well I'd call it a poor choice of words. No, Roosh, as I pointed out to atarus. It was not the stupid vote that caught my eye, but the hurried retraction straight after it. And yes, 1 minute later is hurried in this game. -snip- Roosh, I do not think you were selling out your fellow scum on Night 0. I think you just slipped. That's all. No grand scheme, no master plan. Just a slip. I look forward to the defence post, should be interesting. Ah. Okay. NOW this makes sense as I had to go and look back to Night 0 (as I didn't recall a retraction). Yeah, I retracted the fact that I called him a liar, but i said I was voting for him anyways. :shrug: I don't really know how I can defend this any better. My sense of humor is my own, and i found it funny. I needed a superfluous reason to vote for him, so I called him a liar, and then voted for him. And then I read his post again, and saw I can't call him a liar because he didn't say anything, so it was amusing to me to retract the liar portion, and but yet still vote for him for no reason then instead. But yeah, that's all the defense I can give you, man. A joke is a joke, and retracting the fact that I called him a liar... if you wanna see that as a slip? Okay... but I think you've got tunnel-vision on my from that, as you've really been out to get me, and I KNOW that that post was just a joke, so your pursuing of me without giving me the benefit of the doubt... well I can't really do anything there. If you can't accept that it's a joke by me, and if you WANT to see it as a "slip" I can't really see how I can change your mind. ~~~Paranoid thought warning~~~~~~ Though why not the dogged chasing after Pleonast and not myself? -I admit I am an easier target but still this was my fav. tactic in BladeRunner- you know 1 of 2 is scummy, but you bring up the arguments vs. the non-scum one to lynch them and in essence try to make the scum person taking the heat less scummy. And it is something I'd expect of you, since this is the tactic I used most vs. YOU with Episode, so you are familiar with it [This of course would imply that you and pleo are scum together]. Which, I'm not sure of right now (either of your alignments), it's a paranoid thought, but not a very strong one. However, if one of you turns up scummy in the future I hope the others would strongly look at this post again.
|
|
RoOsh
FGM
Former BatMod
[on:Wanna see a magic trick?][of:See You, Space Cowboy....]
Posts: 284
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Day One
Jan 29, 2008 9:41:46 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Jan 29, 2008 9:41:46 GMT -5
Okay, Kat, to answer your question, Roosh[b/]'s post length is no longer the reason I'm voting for him. My reasons now include his OMGUS vote, paralleled with "Oh, poor me!" attitude which he successfully employed as scum in BladeRunner.Wait, which is the "OMGUS vote"? My vote towards Koldanar? Because against koldanar i have a VERY VERY good reason for voting. Yes he voted for me, but his reasoning was shit. If he had voted for ANYONE else with that SAME reasoning, I would have voted for him. There was no OMGUS there. Or are you still going back to my OMGUS vote towards you? (This one yes was an OMGUS, but well... I was pissed off and frustrated by your post). And the "Oh poor me?" - Most uncool, dude. As that was Dio's reasonings too, and it's something I cannot defend against. I've moved on from that post, What was out of game feelings were settled, and I don't see myself asking for sympathy anywhere else from that one moment of weakness. All I can ask is that you don't judge me on that little portion of the game and judge me on my actions elsewhere, since that was just an emotional few posts and not really well reasoned posts. If i could excise those few posts from here, but keep the good will in perhaps a separate thread it would have been nice, but since we have no forum out of the game to talk about these sorts of things they were in here. I wouldn't have wanted to bring it up in here, but I felt i had to, for my continued enjoyment of the game. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ RE: Absences ~~~~~ Okay, and I'll be busy tomorrow night and a bit of Thursday as well for my exams. So my participation may decrease. However, I have my defense posted up. So anyone else who is THINKING of even voting for me or such, can you guys lemme know by tonight? As this is a neck and neck race and in the last few days I'm sure votes could switch around and I don't want my final thoughts to be lost. So yeah, even if you're considering voting for me in the next few days, could you give me an indication by tonight maybe? I'd REALLY appreciate it.
|
|
Santo Rugger
Mome Rath
The Obviously Innocent Townie
The Rugger formerly known as Pygmy[on:BYAHH!][of:BYAHH?]
Posts: 3
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Day One
Jan 29, 2008 10:00:03 GMT -5
Post by Santo Rugger on Jan 29, 2008 10:00:03 GMT -5
That's pretty much the definition of OMGUS.
In other news, I really think the five people that haven't voted need to get their votes in. If we can get the votes in early, it'll become much more clear who the -actual- vote leaders are, and we can use a modified system where all votes are due within 48 hours of the deadline, and hours -48 to -24 can be used by those with one-off votes to change their votes to a vote leader. Then, at -24 hours, we can implement story's plan.
|
|
Merestil Haye
FGM
Grudge Keeper
[on:Slumming it in the Middle-Earth][of:In the halls of Manw
Posts: 1,077
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Day One
Jan 29, 2008 10:00:35 GMT -5
Post by Merestil Haye on Jan 29, 2008 10:00:35 GMT -5
Roosh, you have not addressed my problem withy you. To whit : Why did you state that NAF said something that he did not, and then attack him on the basis that he did say that?
Nowhere in your defences do I see that addressed. Saying "It's just context" does not suffice.
I apologise for not voting at the weekend; I got kneecapped by misreading a deadline.
|
|
|
Day One
Jan 29, 2008 10:09:32 GMT -5
Post by CatInASuit on Jan 29, 2008 10:09:32 GMT -5
Post 1The Pleo vote was a joke, as I don't even really think I had seen my role when I was doing that Post 2Fair enough. I knew my role at that time. One of these things is not like the other. Roosh, you say you have been sloppy. I would agree. I may have tunnel vision over this and may have mis-interpreted your sense of humour, but humour doesn't explain the above. Pleonast has not done anything scummy yet, in fact for him, he has been a low poster. Then again, he has been away. ~~~Paranoid thought warning~~~~~~ You are currently play-for-play on how you defended against me in Blade Runner when I caught your interesting voting pattern.
|
|
RoOsh
FGM
Former BatMod
[on:Wanna see a magic trick?][of:See You, Space Cowboy....]
Posts: 284
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Day One
Jan 29, 2008 10:10:03 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Jan 29, 2008 10:10:03 GMT -5
Roosh, you have not addressed my problem withy you. To whit : Why did you state that NAF said something that he did not, and then attack him on the basis that he did say that? Gah, i don't remember you asking me a question, it must have gotten lost, lemme go look this up and get to your question. Sorry
|
|
RoOsh
FGM
Former BatMod
[on:Wanna see a magic trick?][of:See You, Space Cowboy....]
Posts: 284
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Day One
Jan 29, 2008 10:41:44 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Jan 29, 2008 10:41:44 GMT -5
Roosh, you have not addressed my problem withy you. To whit : Why did you state that NAF said something that he did not, and then attack him on the basis that he did say that? Nowhere in your defences do I see that addressed. Saying "It's just context" does not suffice. I tried to explain this better in post 1.123 when I stated (apolgies, I don't know how to make quotes within a quote appear): : sigh : The Metagaming this at this point is just twisted out now. I NEVER had a problem Scum-wise against your metagaming. I disliked it from a personal viewpoint. However, I had brought it up simply to provide context with what I disliked LATER on. Now it seems I never should have brought it up, I should have just gone straight to what my problem with your actions were. As you continually seem to bring up the metagaming as if it were used against you. It hasn't been. That's the part where I talk about context, as you mentioned, then I go back and post his arguements again: This was the focus of that whole metagaming issue. It was the fact that you imply and claim that you're town. BEFORE YOU HAD ANY HEAT ON YOU. What townie does that? At the start of the game just go "I'm Town!" It's not needed. The fact that you were doing this at the start of the game BEFORE I had accused you or before you really had even gotten any heat is what really caused me to go "What the heck is he doing??" Here, to make it easier: Let me just show you the post that caused all these problems with the underlined parts that made me go... this is just really unneeded: Jan 23, 2008, 11:35am, NAF1138 wrote:Re: cookies and her vote for me
My argument may have not been compelling, but that isn't the same as it seeming scummy. Let me point out that meta gaming is almost always used by town. Scum has little need to meta game. In this game it might be different, what with competing factions, but if you are town your only objection to meta gaming should really be that it is rather unfair to the other players.
It is unfair in the same way that intentionally trying to break the game is unfair to the other players, it makes the game a little less fun. But frankly, I have been on the losing team 4 games in a row now. I want to win. It is a preliminary vote based on very little info, it isn't a final vote in any way, and I expect it to change several times toDay. But for toDay at least, I think vote early vote often is a good philosophy. People's reactions to votes help me figure them out. (Yes, I have adopted yet another voting strategy for this game. Hopefully this one will work out better then my last one)
I am far from being the only person to vote yet. I am just one of the only people to claim to have a reason, however slight.
Your vote strikes me as opportunistic. If you are town...knock it off. In this game more then in many others, town doing scummy shit like that is going to lose us the game. Town doing scummy shit lost us the game in Bladerunner, and almost lost the town the game in Firefly.
I am not going to vote for you right now, mostly because I have a hard time reading you. And think that your scummy vote is less scummy, for now, then hawk's tone. Which continues to strike me as off. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ My thoughts in that post: You had received one vote. But immediately you start going on with the how townie you are, and how your vote is a completely townie vote and the "if you are Town, you should". It just seemed really unnecessary and overdone to me, and set off warning flags. Combined with the end towards Cookies, where you semi-attack her and you kinda reassure her at the same time....
In that portion if you go back to post #1.123, I explain by underlining the sections that caused me to sit up and take notice. The fact that he had stated that only townies are the one's who Meta-game was suspicious but it was NOT the reason why I attacked him. I have not been trying to attack him on the merits of "Metagaming" or anything like that, I did put it down as #1 in my post vs. him, but it was not an accusatory post vs. him, it was as I have said context for the next point, my #2 one. Which was his harping on his Towniness. The line implies that only townie's Metagame, and THEN the fact that throughout his post he continually gives off line by line mentions to Townieness, and how "if you are town" you shouldn't find him really suspicious and that sorta thing is what really set off the alarm bells. I realize that my summary of metagaming was inaccurate sure, but it wasn't a point I was trying to bring up against him. The whole Metagaming is it REALLY Town or Anti-town was NOT my intent at all, and to ME felt like a huge strawman on my own arguments which was that NAF was really coming off as trying to push his Towniess to the rest of us, at a point when none of us had reason to doubt his towniness. THAT was my major point against NAF, and somehow it got twisted into the whole metagaming issue that I didn't really want to get into, as that wasn't the focus of my points with the man. So when I stated "Scum never Metagame" i wasn't really trying to deal with Metagaming or the issue of that, what I was dealing with was the part that he's basically saying (to me) "Look at me, I'm doing Townie things!" -My problem was never with WHAT the townie things were, but it was with him pointing OUT such things. But that whole argument got so convoluted and confusing, that's why I had to back down. Because at that point the whole Metagaming issue came up as a strawman and kinda blindsided me. I didn't want to talk about metagaming, I wanted to talk about harping about your own towniness as the issue. But i realized it was lost in the noise. So I had to back down and quit that argument, and so I'm just watching NAF as I'm still suspicious of him. But i think my points just got lost in the noise. Since he's accused me of creating strawmen (with the metagaming issue), and I've accused him of creating strawmen (By not talking about the odd harping of towniness so early in the game) , and I think it really wasn't doing either of us good to go in circles around each other like that. I hope that can better explain it, but it REALLY is a confusing matter. To sum up: I don't feel I attacked him on the issue of something i had said he said. For me, it wasn't about WHAT was said, but WHY had he said it. But that got lost in there, and I felt my points weren't clearly coming across, that's why I had to back down in post 123, which I felt better explained my positions on the matter. In my mind the argument was done as such: N- "Only Townies Do X" (After having done X) R- "Scum never X", WHY did you say that after doing X? N (and others)- "Wait. I didn't say Scum Never X!" R- Okay whatever, but WHY did you say that? N- That's a lie to accuse me of saying "Scum do X" Others- " Do scum do X?" :ensue penis: (Boy I hope that's the right reference or else there's gonna be egg on my face) R- But wait... WHY? Why did you say it? That Scum never X was just context. I don't care about X! Gah!:ensue alot of noise: R- fine. Forget this. This is just gonna create a clusterfuck. :concedes & Unvotes: That to me is how I saw the shit go down. Yes, I said it was context, and i suppose I paraphrased it, but I never felt i was attacking him due to what was SAID [metagaming issue], I felt that was raised by him, when I only had quoted it due to context of he had said something to imply he was town, and that just happened to be what he had said. I hope that makes sense. If not, i dunno, could you be more specific in what you're trying to ask of me? As i'm not sure what I can explain better, just I thought I had answered the Q in post 1.123.
|
|
RoOsh
FGM
Former BatMod
[on:Wanna see a magic trick?][of:See You, Space Cowboy....]
Posts: 284
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Day One
Jan 29, 2008 10:53:08 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Jan 29, 2008 10:53:08 GMT -5
RE: S.RuggerThat's pretty much the definition of OMGUS. So it was because I omgus'ed you, i presume? :sigh: Fine. I can't defend that one, only that I was upset by you, and wasn't thinking about the game, just very frustrated and upset. I wish you wouldn't hold it against me, but fine. I personally though think it's a weak reason to vote for me, as there are plenty of other people (and myself) who have plenty of suspicion and reasonings against them, so this vote against me I feel is very weak, and I'm not a fan of it with all the other things that have been said. I think yours is a cop out vote as there's bigger and more important evidence around here than just an OMGUS and a moment of weakness. RE: CATRoosh, you say you have been sloppy. I would agree. I may have tunnel vision over this and may have mis-interpreted your sense of humour, but humour doesn't explain the above. Pleonast has not done anything scummy yet, in fact for him, he has been a low poster. Then again, he has been away. Well, he has voted against me. Which means nothing in your theory as he could be angry scum trying to bus me for my slip then. But yeah. :shrug: It's an interesting theory but it's wrong. [And I'm vain enough to admit, I don't make scum slips like those. PERIOD. As in BR, I was the most ANAL scum players out there warning about slips, warning my fellow scum daily about it. To suddenly thing that I'd forget all my paranoia and slip up in here, is HIGHLY uncharacteristic of me. But that's a metagaming issue and frankly one i can't really use. "I'm too good as scum to make scum slips" Yeah, right, that'll help me out.] ~~~Paranoid thought warning~~~~~~ You are currently play-for-play on how you defended against me in Blade Runner when I caught your interesting voting pattern. Touche' :shrug: at this point, i suppose we have to agree to disagree, since it all comes down to what is interpreted as humor and what's not. I don't think I can convince you and you won't be convinced by me (:coughs: TunnelVision :coughs:) So uh. I guess, who's your 3rd choice for scum then? Might as well have some use outta you for the rest of the Day. (Since you've already settled I presume on me and Pleo as 1 and 2).
|
|
|
Day One
Jan 29, 2008 11:08:40 GMT -5
Post by CatInASuit on Jan 29, 2008 11:08:40 GMT -5
Well, he has voted against me. Which means nothing in your theory as he could be angry scum trying to bus me for my slip then. Well he was the third vote on you But yeah. :shrug: It's an interesting theory but it's wrong. [And I'm vain enough to admit, I don't make scum slips like those. PERIOD. As in BR, I was the most ANAL scum players out there warning about slips, warning my fellow scum daily about it. To suddenly thing that I'd forget all my paranoia and slip up in here, is HIGHLY uncharacteristic of me. But that's a metagaming issue and frankly one i can't really use. "I'm too good as scum to make scum slips" Yeah, right, that'll help me out.] ~~~Paranoid thought warning~~~~~~ You are currently play-for-play on how you defended against me in Blade Runner when I caught your interesting voting pattern. Touche' :shrug: at this point, i suppose we have to agree to disagree, since it all comes down to what is interpreted as humor and what's not. I don't think I can convince you and you won't be convinced by me (:coughs: TunnelVision :coughs:) Although you haven't commented on the difference in the two quotes in my post, I think this one has run as far as it can and it is likely to only be proved either way when you are no longer living. So uh. I guess, who's your 3rd choice for scum then? Might as well have some use outta you for the rest of the Day. (Since you've already settled I presume on me and Pleo as 1 and 2). Just you as #1 for the mo. Although knowing my life expectancy, I should put something else down for the end of the Day. storyteller is looking slightly shady. I am not totally convinced by the arguments against koldanar and Peasant Smurf. However, piratepete has done little to knock off the scummy feeling I got from denouement, so you can consider him scum suspect #2. I will have to see if I can put it into words with cites or whether it is just a bad feeling.
|
|
|
Day One
Jan 29, 2008 11:35:48 GMT -5
Post by CatInASuit on Jan 29, 2008 11:35:48 GMT -5
The tragic tale of denouement/piratepete
#38. Comment on the proposed voting plans and prefers the modified version. Says she has a Magic BagTM for finding scum in this kind of game
#51: Apologises for the Magic BagTM. Says she is still trying to learn to play.
#147: Still considers herself a newbie even though she has played in a couple of games and still does not know what she is doing.
#175: PP subs in for denouement
#176: Immediately votes Peasant Smurf citing nesta and the lack of a defence.
#180: Says that Peasant Smurf had not much dirt on him but wanted to put a vote down citing that Peasant Smurf had the most information against him so far
#190: Goes over Pleonast's voting numbers wrt no-lynch. Says he will not back voting plan, will have vote in, but not necessarily as part of the majority.
#194: Considers no-lynch a neutral tactic
#213: votes koldanar citing drainbead and Roosh.
So lets summarise:
1 Magic BagTM and 2 votes citing other people No personal analysis of other players just looking at the no-lynch possiblities.
Yup, I would consider this scummy and so definitely makes my #2 scum spot after Roosh and I would be happy to vote for either of these two for lynching.
|
|
|
Day One
Jan 29, 2008 11:43:46 GMT -5
Post by Hawkmod on Jan 29, 2008 11:43:46 GMT -5
The tragic tale of denouement/piratepete#38. Comment on the proposed voting plans and prefers the modified version. Says she has a Magic Bag TM for finding scum in this kind of game #51: Apologises for the Magic Bag TM. Says she is still trying to learn to play. I would also like to point out that after apologizing for the Magic Bag TM, she still didn't reveal what it was. I also have Denouncement/Pirate is my current number #2. My main problem is that most of my issues were with things Tragic did, so I can't exactly ask Piratepete to explain them.
|
|
RoOsh
FGM
Former BatMod
[on:Wanna see a magic trick?][of:See You, Space Cowboy....]
Posts: 284
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Day One
Jan 29, 2008 16:04:57 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Jan 29, 2008 16:04:57 GMT -5
Well he was the third vote on you Again, well played, good sir. I'm enjoying your posts and they're making me laugh quite a bit. There's the good natured Cat I know. Just you as #1 for the mo. Hey Hey. It takes TWO to implicate. Me and Pleonast should be EQUALLY tied for #1. The fact that you seem to imply that I'm scummier than someone who I made a "scum slip" on (which is pretty much the majority of your vote vs. me) makes me think of your vote against me as just opportunistic. If you actually DO NOT feel that Pleonast is JUST as Guilty as me, then your vote vs. me is a Garbage vote with shitty justifications. Just an FYI. -So i am growing suspicious that you keep implying MY Suspiciousness but NOT Pleonast's EQUAL suspicions, when your argument for voting vs. me is that I made a Scum slip with my "scumbuddy" Pleo- if you think pleo is less scummy or innocent, then I should be JUST as innocent since then there is no scum slip to be made. *Note: My stance is still that I'm not Scum, and that I have no clue what Pleonast's alignment actually is ( Pleo may actually be scum, but i certainly did NOT make a "scum slip" on Night 0 implicating him). But I am just working with CAIS here on his ideas, since his difference in the two of us is making me suspicious.
|
|
RoOsh
FGM
Former BatMod
[on:Wanna see a magic trick?][of:See You, Space Cowboy....]
Posts: 284
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Day One
Jan 29, 2008 16:33:58 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Jan 29, 2008 16:33:58 GMT -5
RE: Who has NOT voted
I got bored, so I figured I'd check it out:
6 - koldanar (Diomedes, diggitcamara, Roosh, drainbead, piratepete, atarus) 5 - Roosh (NAF1138, Pleonast, Pygmyrugger, CatInASuit, koldanar) 2 - Peasant Smurf (nesta, hawkeyeop) 1 - piratepete (hockeymonkey) 1 - NAF (ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)
People who've not voted & their post counts so far: 6. Greedy Smurf -6 7. Hal Briston - 3 11. Kat - 5 13. mhaye -8 19. storyteller0910-22 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ My thoughts: Is Hal alive? Does he need prodding? Kat- she's not said too much, she's been here and there. I expect a vote from her though. I think she's active, but not sure. ~ ~ ~ Mhaye- Standard MO is waiting to vote. I expect his vote will come in late and this is consistent with his style. ~ ~ ~ Story- always an active player. Though the non-vote yet is surprising, but I expect he should vote soon enough. I'm curious to know how he votes though.
Greedy/peasant Smurf- he's got votes against him, but no votes of his own. I'd like to hear more from him the most.
|
|
|
Day One
Jan 29, 2008 18:51:23 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Jan 29, 2008 18:51:23 GMT -5
Hey I just wanted to post to apologize for being absent the last few days. I am really sick and have spent a good portion of the last 48 hours asleep. I will post again after I feel well enough that I can make sense of what has been happening.
|
|
Gir!
FGM
EVIL Demon Goddess Mod
What? Kat is sweet and innocent!
Posts: 691
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Day One
Jan 29, 2008 19:05:55 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Jan 29, 2008 19:05:55 GMT -5
Vote Roosh
And yes, it's a somewhat metagaming reason. Roosh has a history of long and complex posts, so that's a null tell for him. However, in this game, the number of times that he has re-interpreted someone's post to apparently mean something other than what was said, or responded to someone without quite answering the question(s) asked has gone up noticeably.
|
|
|
Day One
Jan 29, 2008 20:16:32 GMT -5
Post by piratepete v2 on Jan 29, 2008 20:16:32 GMT -5
@CiaS and hawkeyeop:
re. Magic Bag:
Sorry, if tragic had some clever strategy, she certainly didn't let me know what it was. Which could be interpreted as a weakness of substitution in general, I suppose, since one rôle doesn't have access to constant information, but I'm not protesting my chance to play!
Even if you found it suspicious, though (and I can see why), I don't see how it can still have much bearing on your analysis, unless one of the rôles has some kind of information-gathering power, which none seem to do.
re. citing others' analysis:
Unlike tragic, I in fact am new to this game. That doesn't excuse incongruous behaviour, but possibly the fact that I haven't noticed any scum-tells independently. I hardly think it's necessarily scummy to primarily assess other people's arguments and judge based on them.
@RoOsh:
Whereas you are correct in asserting (p.247 &c.) that there is no direct contradiction in what you said and that it is quite possible to forget when exactly someone receives a rôle, your tone is suspiciously nervous, and was probably the thing CiaS was picking up from night 0, rather than the retraction per se. Likewise, your point about Pleonast's being implicated is valid, but again you sound rather nervous and perhaps too keen to add the footnote.
However, @CiaS (again):
"Tunnel vision" doesn't seem to cut it. If RoOsh has been misquoting or evading questions, why not rely on that more than you have been?
Speaking of which, @Kat:
When in particular?
|
|
Gir!
FGM
EVIL Demon Goddess Mod
What? Kat is sweet and innocent!
Posts: 691
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Day One
Jan 29, 2008 23:12:48 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Jan 29, 2008 23:12:48 GMT -5
To keep this from being too long, Pete, I am only posting a few. I took the most recent ones (since I remembered them) and then started from the beginning of the Day and added them to the list until I hit 2 pages in Word. They should be in chronological order, except for the one regarding mhaye.
*** NAF says: Let me point out that meta gaming is almost always used by town. Scum has little need to meta game. In this game it might be different, what with competing factions, but if you are town your only objection to meta gaming should really be that it is rather unfair to the other players.
Roosh paraphrases as: The meta-gaming always been by Town. "Scum never Meta-game."
(Kay says: The use of quotes here is very very misleading. Plus, his paraphrase is more extreme than NAF’s actual comment.)
*** NAF says to hawkeye: But it is your tone. I either think it is too similar to the way you are playing the other game or too different...I don't really want to say which. Can you blame me?
Hawkeye replies: Well I have no problem saying I'm town in the other game, so you are finding my tone different. I don't know that you are wrong on that, but I think your conclusion is flawed.
Roosh paraphrases as: -So you seem to agree that it [the tone] IS different. And then state in that game you're town.
Are you implying that you're NOT town in this game?
(Kat says: By itself, this one isn’t that bad, because I can see how it could be parsed that way. My impression, though, was that hawkeye is just clarifying NAF’s comment to be “If I’m Town elsewhere, and you’re interpreting my tone here as scum, you must be saying my tone is different here.”)
*** NAF says: You have the quote RIGHT THERE and you get it wrong! Almost always is not the same as always.
Roosh replies: Yeah, I didn't quote you there. That was MY summing up of your thoughts. If i quoted you there, I'd use italics or cite you.
(Kat says: But Roosh did quote NAF’s actual words right above the paraphrase, which is what NAF is trying to point out. He had NAF's words right in front of him when he wrote the paraphrase, and got the meaning wrong. Also, as said, the use of quotation marks implies quoting.)
*** Pleo says: I don't like your omnibus posts of accusations. And I don't like the way you misinterpret others' posts. These are unhelpful things for Town* to do and very useful things for the Factions to do. Not much, but enough for Day One.
Roosh later says: I gave Pleonast a sad face, so he's voting for me.
*** Roosh says: The Pleo vote was a joke, as I don't even really think I had seen my role when I was doing that, I assumed Night 0 was before the game started. The retraction should be obvious... what evidence did I have BEFORE the game even started on Pleo?
CiaS points out: Umm, I was the last person to confirm in the game, you had confirmed your role and its understanding a couple of days earlier. ie. You knew your role, so this part of your defence is false. And then: The only way that you could know Pleonast's role before we started. Let's just check the roles again shall we, oh yes, the only people who know another's role is one of the scum factions.
Roosh replies: So you're saying... that Me and Pleo are on the same Scum team? And that on Night Zero, I called him out on the fact that he's lying about being a townie in order to what? To give myself a handicap for starting the game?
(Kat says: Because we all know scum never toss random votes to each other at game’s start?)
**** mhaye says: You paraphrased NAF's statement, and in doing so changed what he said. You then proceeded to attack as scummy the thing you claimed NAF had said.. That;s a classical definition of a "straw man" argument - something you set up so you could demolish.
And then asks 4 days later (since Roosh never made any kind of response): Why did you state that NAF said something that he did not, and then attack him on the basis that he did say that?
Part of Roosh’s reply admits: I realize that my summary of metagaming was inaccurate sure, but it wasn't a point I was trying to bring up against him. (Kat says: See #253 for the entire reply, which is all over the place. Including a little dialogue which includes “In my mind the argument was done as such: N- "Only Townies Do X" (After having done X)”, which again, is not what NAF said.)
|
|
RoOsh
FGM
Former BatMod
[on:Wanna see a magic trick?][of:See You, Space Cowboy....]
Posts: 284
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Day One
Jan 30, 2008 0:39:03 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Jan 30, 2008 0:39:03 GMT -5
Well done, Kat. Your vote against me is probably the BEST researched next to NAF's. I was going to wonder if you were just voting for me, giving one of the popular reasons for doing so w/o backing it up. However, that most recent post of yours was QUITE Comprehensive, and it did a very nice job. I only wonder why the other 4 people voting for me for various reasons never really brought it up.... But allow me a few clarifications (though most of it I can't really touch- it's pretty solid). *** NAF says: You have the quote RIGHT THERE and you get it wrong! Almost always is not the same as always. Roosh replies: Yeah, I didn't quote you there. That was MY summing up of your thoughts. If i quoted you there, I'd use italics or cite you. (Kat says: But Roosh did quote NAF’s actual words right above the paraphrase, which is what NAF is trying to point out. 1 He had NAF's words right in front of him when he wrote the paraphrase, and got the meaning wrong. Also, as said, the use of quotation marks implies quoting.) *** Pleo says: I don't like your omnibus posts of accusations. And I don't like the way you misinterpret others' posts. These are unhelpful things for Town* to do and very useful things for the Factions to do. Not much, but enough for Day One. Roosh later says: I gave Pleonast a sad face, so he's voting for me 2. *** (Kat says: Because we all know scum never toss random votes to each other at game’s start?) 3**** And then asks 4 days later (since Roosh never made any kind of response) 4: ~Snip~ N- "Only Townies Do X" (After having done X)”, which again, is not what NAF said. 5) 1. I thought he was referring to the "Scum never Metagame" sorta paraphrasing comments that I had said. The fact that he was referring to the quote threw me, as I never considered that (How can I get a quote wrong, if I quoted it right there?? Your pointing this out kinda opened my eyes, as I had been thinking NAF was having issues with my paraphrasing, not with my actual QUOTE of the guy). And quote marks to me usually mean paraphrasing, or sarcasm. I tend to use them whenever I'd make little quote mark gestures in real life (think Office space or Dilbert hand gestures). So it's easier just to go with the MLA style of italics and such. 2. How was I supposed to take his vote seriously? He said at the end of his post: Oh, it occurs to me your frownie face is because you'll miss me. If that's the case, I'll forgive you and vote for someone else. I assumed that was it, and I figured he'd ACTUALLY forgive me and not vote for me since his initial points against me (where he wondered if I had a problem with him and his Math, or at least why did i mention it) made me feel like his vote was an early OMGUS vote, and he was going to just move it. I didn't realize he actually had issues, especially since the "mischaracterizes other's posts" felt really vague to me to be any sort of reasoning. Unlike this one, which points it out quite clearly, and is MUCH more useful to see than just a statement, a vote, and then nothing for the rest of the game really. 3. But before the game even STARTS? ( ) 4. I figured post 1.123 had answered all the questions about the whole issue. I didn't realize that Mhaye wasn't satisfied with the answer there. It helps to speak up if you feel you haven't been answered, otherwise I'm the type to assume that I answered all the questions, especially since a lot of people have been asking me questions. 5. :Sigh: Again this. It's NOT WHAT he said. It's the fact that He SAID it. He could have said ANYTHING in that sort of fashion and it would be suspicious. This was part of the whole problem with the argument, people keep getting hung up on the "misquoting part' when it has NOTHING to do with my arguments really other than it provided the gerund for the argument. One more time for you: 1.NAF did X. 2. He then proclaims, "Only townies so far have done X. Not scum." this was one point among 3-4 other references in a very heavy handed post on Towniness and it was done VERY early in the game. 3. I misquote NAF on "X" (sure, let's call it a misquote, I wanna say paraphrase, but enough people have called it a misquote, so I guess I'm out voted there). 4. How does that change in ANYWAY what NAF did? -No. Not at all. Yet no one seems to want to address THAT issue, because they're all hung up on the fact that I misquoted what he SAID. It still doesn't change the OTHER things he's said, OR the fact that he just said that after having done it. It was a post that I feel still is very heavy handed and very defensive in waving the townie-flag at a point where it wasn't necessary. Yet, all the commotion is over my "misinterpretation" (yes, use your hands to make the gesture please) rather than the ISSUE which was his ACTIONS, and not what he said for X. Hell, he could have just quoted the Gettysburg Address, but then immediately going out and saying "hey, only Town say that speech, and then going on about how if you were Town, you shouldn't find him really suspicious, because come on what towny doesn't love Lincoln?" Is STILL just as suspicious to me, even if I misquote the man and said, "hey, you just said you're not scum" because that IS an implication of what he's just said and done. Even if it's not what he said, and I may have made it more extreme, it IS STILL what he has implied by coming out and stating the things he's said. It may be subtle, but then again, if you're scum you're not trying to go for the direct approach to convince everyone you're town, are you? Anyways, yeah. Good post. You did your research, and I don't mind having your vote against me. Well i do. But it's not the Worst vote against me at all. Even though it IS the one that ties me back up with Koldanar... Uncool. Most Uncool.
|
|
|
Day One
Jan 30, 2008 0:42:54 GMT -5
Post by Hal Briston on Jan 30, 2008 0:42:54 GMT -5
Is Hal alive? Does he need prodding? Sorry all...yes, I'm here. Well, I'm here now, anyway. SDMB folks might be aware that it's been a busy couple of days around the Briston household. But, my wife comes home from the hospital tomorrow, and things will start to regain a slight semblance of normalcy. Just to get it out now -- I do most of my Mafia playing while on work time, and I'm off work until next Tuesday. So while I'll toss in votes and what analysis I can, it'll still be on the light side until next week. Thanks!
|
|
RoOsh
FGM
Former BatMod
[on:Wanna see a magic trick?][of:See You, Space Cowboy....]
Posts: 284
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Day One
Jan 30, 2008 1:02:23 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Jan 30, 2008 1:02:23 GMT -5
Okay. Good to hear from you, Hal, and hope everything works out for you, and the best wishes to your family /back into game: I guess I should make a defense post now, since I'm back into being tied with Koldanar for lynchability, AND I know there's a hovering threat of a mhaye vote hanging over my head AND since I know i'm gonna be less active till friday or so. So i'm gonna make my last post. Just gimmie some time with it, don't like speech lynch me or anything in the next 2 hours or so. Gracias. ~Roosh.
|
|
RoOsh
FGM
Former BatMod
[on:Wanna see a magic trick?][of:See You, Space Cowboy....]
Posts: 284
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Day One
Jan 30, 2008 1:56:53 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Jan 30, 2008 1:56:53 GMT -5
Wheee! Magic Bag!
|
|
RoOsh
FGM
Former BatMod
[on:Wanna see a magic trick?][of:See You, Space Cowboy....]
Posts: 284
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Day One
Jan 30, 2008 1:58:17 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Jan 30, 2008 1:58:17 GMT -5
Just kidding, I was only trying to bump the board to the next page before posting my defense, to spare the page a little, but I'm off by 2. If only someone else out there was to post.... :cough: CAIS?
|
|
|
Day One
Jan 30, 2008 2:00:16 GMT -5
Post by CatInASuit on Jan 30, 2008 2:00:16 GMT -5
Go on then Roosh,
PS: You have started using the "But the Scum wouldn't do that" defence again.
|
|