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Post by NAF1138 on Jun 26, 2008 10:50:10 GMT -5
As far as I can tell town has come to a general consensus, (and had done so before I came out pfk) that lynching a pfk can be a bad idea, especially if we're heading towards lylo, which, with story gone we seem to be, but NAF is talking like we can afford to have demons running around as long as we kill independent pfk's. I don't like this logic even if it didn't apply directly to me. Ok I want to address something out of game for a second. This is BAD logic. Forget who it is coming from. Lynching PFK's is NECESSARY for the town to win. Saying that it isn't is like saying we should be letting SK's run free. We need to kill all anti town elements before they outnumber us and thinking that we don't is fucking idiotic. You want to know why town keeps losing these games? It is because of thinking like this. This is rigid non-flexible thinking that doesn't adapt to the changes in the game. Once non town elements outnumber town elements the game is over for the town regardless of wether the game ends or not. At that point it becomes mathmatically impossible for the town to win. Saying that this isn't true doesn't change anything. Also, back in game, Blocky is lying about how I got my results. I got a TDpats result.
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Post by NAF1138 on Jun 26, 2008 10:52:02 GMT -5
Of all the demons for a fellow demon to hound HM was the best choice..... Just sayin..... I have been thinking about that. I am looking at hockey's weird statement, and I think it was a call for help. I don't think that hockey had that specific power. The statement only makes sense if it is a call for help.
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Post by Rysto on Jun 26, 2008 10:56:35 GMT -5
I didn't see you asking for analysis of a claim you asked for analysis of my wording. The argument was so much clearer in my head: 1) You claim that Night Three you attempted to investigate HM and got back " tdpats is Town". 2) You claim that because of that result, you concluded that HM was more likely to be scum because : 3) So the question becomes, is the result " tdpats is Town" a reasonable result for you to get Night 3, or should you have gotten "Town" back instead? Because if it's the latter(and I see that blockey claims that it is), you are clearly lying. Your continued pursuit of HM would make no sense if you had gotten "Town" back. So I hope that this clarifies why this is such an important point to me. Not true. That is not true as long as I'm alive, because if I kill a demon and we lynch a horseman or a demon, then we come out ahead even if the demons kill a townie.
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Post by NAF1138 on Jun 26, 2008 10:57:59 GMT -5
Anyway, I think I am done for the Day. The case against me is being spun from whole cloth by 1 admited anti-town element and one player who has been playing in an extremly anti-town fashion.
Look at my posts, look at my votes and look at my actions. I think my past speaks for itself. If I stick around I am going to vortex out of control like I did in Recruitment and I think it is best for the town and everyone if I walk away for a few hours. I will keep an eye on things in case anyone has any specific questions they want to ask me.
I am happy with my vote and said all that I think there is to say in my defense.
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Post by Nanook on Jun 26, 2008 11:00:13 GMT -5
I have been thinking about that. I am looking at hockey's weird statement, and I think it was a call for help. I don't think that hockey had that specific power. The statement only makes sense if it is a call for help. Actually, what you're saying here makes sense. Not as a call for help, but a call for one of the demons to invoke a power. An ability to sacrifice another demon in order to day kill someone. I hope to god it's a one shot, or this could get ugly. In this scenario, demon knight would most likely be just a vanilla demon, and there's still at least one power role demon running around. What a depressing thought. And Rysto, some links to the posts you're using to draw that conclusion would be useful.
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Post by NAF1138 on Jun 26, 2008 11:03:38 GMT -5
Not true. That is not true as long as I'm alive, because if I kill a demon and we lynch a horseman or a demon, then we come out ahead even if the demons kill a townie. Ok, one last thing. Underlining mine. That was my point. We need to start lynching horsemen. Blocky was arguing that we shouldn't lynch horsemen and that horsemen lynching was a mislynch and me saying that we need to lynch horsemen was a point against me. My point was, if we don't lynch horsemen we will lose the game. Early in the game it might have been equivilent to a mislynch, but just because that was true at one point doesn't make it true now. Also, I understand your argument more clearly now re: asking blocky for clarification. I get what you were going for. It didn't occur to me that how the result came in would come into question. I got my result the way I got my result. unvote rysto vote blockyAfter your last post I am a whole hell of a lot less sure of my gut feeling. I think I may have just been getting a bit defensive. Ok, now I am out.
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Post by Mister Blockey on Jun 26, 2008 11:11:47 GMT -5
I just got a pm from the mod that clarified my question.
If NAF investigated that night he would've gotten the results that he said.
due to that Unvote NAF
and I'm going to go ahead and Vote Blam, since that's the only other lynch that makes sense to me today.
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Post by Rysto on Jun 26, 2008 11:19:30 GMT -5
Ok I want to address something out of game for a second. This is BAD logic. Forget who it is coming from. Lynching PFK's is NECESSARY for the town to win. Saying that it isn't is like saying we should be letting SK's run free. We need to kill all anti town elements before they outnumber us and thinking that we don't is fucking idiotic. I find this post very interesting in light of this post from Batman: For those who don't know(or remember) the context, this came after it was revealed that there were 3 PFKs and "approximately" 5 Do-Gooders out of 17 remaining players. I find NAF's change in opinion on the matter troubling. However, in light of blockey's clarification, my vote on BLaM stands.
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Post by Mister Blockey on Jun 26, 2008 11:38:37 GMT -5
I would just like to remind folks that I can not win early, that I can not night kill, and that, in fact, there is no situation where killing me would be better than killing a demon. I know you can't always know if it's a demon you're aiming at, but still.
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Post by Hawkmod on Jun 26, 2008 12:14:43 GMT -5
I would just like to remind folks that I can not win early, that I can not night kill, and that, in fact, there is no situation where killing me would be better than killing a demon. I know you can't always know if it's a demon you're aiming at, but still. I would like to remind you that no matter how many times you say it, we don't have any reason to believe it true. However I'm going to go ahead and vote NAFI think he had a specific reason for not wanting Kison to be reanimated. The timing of his attack on Story was odd. Story would finally be able to prove whether or not he had the power he was claiming, and NAF then voted for him. I find it unlikely NAF believed that Story could win that day. I believe he went after Hockey, since he knew she would never be lynched. Also, I have changed my mind on revealing my identity, because I think it is important that the town knows it can trust what I say. I am a psychic, other wisely known as a mason. Buff was the only other mason. In addition to knowing that each other existed, we had a couple abilities that are now useless. We could communicate with each other during the day, 1 message 25 words or less each, and one response each, and we would know if anything ever happened to each other at night. My first message to Buff included "Make Assumptions Solely On Niceness", which she breadcrumbed back in form. She also said to me "you must be psychic" at one point. This was why she refused to give her character name, as to not reveal my identity.
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Post by Pollux Oil on Jun 26, 2008 13:00:55 GMT -5
Vote Count Blaster Master (6): Rysto, Nanook, Roosh, Survivor Smurf, Kat, misterblockey misterblockey (1): NAF1138 NAF1138 (1): hawkeyeop
Not Voting: 3
Six hours left in the Day.
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Post by Merestil Haye on Jun 26, 2008 13:08:21 GMT -5
I'm just starting a reread of Today, largely free of the distractions of Conspiracy because the sun has set over there. The key part that MHaye elided here is that the only reason that blockey gave for my post being scummy is that it looked like it was providing a distraction from the BLaM lynch. With that key piece of information, Kisons worries become a lot clearer. blockey apparently found BLaM not scummy, but my post was scummy because it looked like it was trying to provide cover for BLaM. I can fully understand why that would set off alarms for Kison. (Edited to remove erroneous linebreak). Actually, that's not the only reason MrB found your post scummy. The main reason (as can be seen here is that he felt you were really stretching to reach a conclusion you wanted. His increased suspicion of BlaM followed from his identifying what appeared to be a scummy post. Kison, by carefully snipping most of the post out, attempted to convey the impression that MrB was contradicvting himself in a single post, when he was not. Selective quotation in an attempt to make something appear other than it is is a technique I always view with suspicion. And, y'know, speakign hypothetically; if I was trying to make a diversion from a lynch of scum, I'd at least wait and see whether my first attempt succeeded before jumping on a second; and, viewed in the abstract, MrB makes a better target for diversions, because he admits to being a PFK with his own separate win condition, than Kison (of whom not much was known) did.
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Post by Rysto on Jun 26, 2008 13:25:18 GMT -5
And, y'know, speakign hypothetically; if I was trying to make a diversion from a lynch of scum, I'd at least wait and see whether my first attempt succeeded before jumping on a second; and, viewed in the abstract, MrB makes a better target for diversions, because he admits to being a PFK with his own separate win condition, than Kison (of whom not much was known) did. The blockey lynch had no legs; your vote for Kison put him in the lead over BLaM.
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Post by Rysto on Jun 26, 2008 13:31:31 GMT -5
Oh, and:
That's reason to vote for Kison over blockey for scum. Pushing a lynch of an admitted anti-Town element is not a difficult thing to do, so why do it then when there's a very nice, late-forming bandwagon against a total unknown who would have a very tough time talking his way off of the gallows in the last 3 hours. Given a full Day to defend himself, though, who knows whether the evidence will stand up?
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Post by Merestil Haye on Jun 26, 2008 14:01:54 GMT -5
Oh, and: That's reason to vote for Kison over blockey for scum. Pushing a lynch of an admitted anti-Town element is not a difficult thing to do, so why do it then when there's a very nice, late-forming bandwagon against a total unknown who would have a very tough time talking his way off of the gallows in the last 3 hours. Given a full Day to defend himself, though, who knows whether the evidence will stand up? I don't think he'd have had much difficulty talking himself off the gallows. All he would have had to do was claim, and the majority of votes would have vanished like smoke. Unfortunately, he didn't come back. Right at this moment BlaM has an overall majority of the votes, so it looks like he's going to be lynched. I'm not sure what I think about that (and he's heading for a rap across the knuckles for insufficient postiness if he doesn't get lynched). I don't like the case, or at least my impression of it, so I'm not joining in. I still want to try rereading this Day before voting. Ultimately, it'll come down to who I think is scummy.
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Post by Rysto on Jun 26, 2008 14:14:38 GMT -5
I don't think he'd have had much difficulty talking himself off the gallows. All he would have had to do was claim, and the majority of votes would have vanished like smoke. Unfortunately, he didn't come back. That's post-hoc reasoning. At the time, you would have had no idea that he had a claim to make.
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Post by Merestil Haye on Jun 26, 2008 14:30:37 GMT -5
I don't think he'd have had much difficulty talking himself off the gallows. All he would have had to do was claim, and the majority of votes would have vanished like smoke. Unfortunately, he didn't come back. That's post-hoc reasoning. At the time, you would have had no idea that he had a claim to make. Hindsight is always 20/20. To be quite frank, I didn't care whether MrB's lynch had "no legs" - I voted him on the principle that we do need to eliminate PFKs at some point. Having established a vote I went and looked at something that I had already flagged up as a possible problem, and which had not been explained. I found a misrepresentation of a vote. Misrepresentation is scummy. So I changed my vote. As Kat later pointed out, he'd done it before. I think your suspicion of me has an element of hindsight as well. You know I was wrong because you know what Kison was, so you're assuming that my vote must be scum motivated. You are wrong. Now back to my reread of Day 5.
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Post by Rysto on Jun 26, 2008 14:41:45 GMT -5
I think your suspicion of me has an element of hindsight as well. You know I was wrong because you know what Kison was, so you're assuming that my vote must be scum motivated. Really? That's what I said? That you must be scum? I seem to recall voicing some suspicions of you, based on my suspicion of BLaM.
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Post by Merestil Haye on Jun 26, 2008 14:57:41 GMT -5
I think your suspicion of me has an element of hindsight as well. You know I was wrong because you know what Kison was, so you're assuming that my vote must be scum motivated. Really? That's what I said? That you must be scum? I seem to recall voicing some suspicions of you, based on my suspicion of BLaM. No, you didn't say it. What I think you have done is moved from "Kison was a cop" to "therefore his lynch was scum-driven." Then you examined the records, decided that my vote was the pivotal one (which I will not dispute) and decided that I must be scum because I drove the lynch, which was scum-driven. Either that or you are scum using my blunder to try and get me bussed Tomorrow; but somehow I doubt that. I don't want to discuss this much further Today. I'll be happy to come back to it Tomorrow. I think getting a handle on an impression I have nagging at me will be a better use of the rest of my time Today.
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Blaster Master
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Post by Blaster Master on Jun 26, 2008 15:40:20 GMT -5
Sorry guys, I stopped reading the board when it broke that Day... Anyway... THOSE WITH CLAIMS 1. Blaster Master - Soft claimed something, no elaboration I want to clarify this, obviously it was misunderstood. I specifically stated that I would not make a claim, not that I was necessarily a power role or that I was unable to make a claim. It was simply that I did not see a need to allude to my role. My intention was simply to be a denial to make any claim whatsoever. OK, starting with BLAM. I'm usually the first damn person to come after BLAM if I see a reason, frankly because the possibility that he's scum makes me nervous. But the sum total of the arguments against him have been that he's: 1. Been relatively inactive (with only 44 posts so far, he's among the lower-ranked posters still alive, but he's nowhere near the bottom - that would be pedescribe, near as I can tell). 2. Posted very little in the early part of most Days, then rolled around to post frequently at the end of the Day. BLAM is on record as saying his odd posting style in this game is consistent with some sort of strategy, related to his role. I want to clarify that this was the case until Today. I realized that my strategy was not having the desired effect. Unfortunately, it is probably too little too late. I do want to emphasize this point. Up until Today I did not make any posts prior to the last day of the Day. However, as you state, I believe representing my posting style as lurking is inaccurate. That is, I haven't gone unnoticed, I haven't made my views and opinions vague.
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Blaster Master
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Post by Blaster Master on Jun 26, 2008 15:43:35 GMT -5
blockey, how many abilities to you expect us to believe that you have? You know what fine I'll just up and say it. Two, the one shot, and my main ability. I believe the standard name is bus driver. I can switch two people as far as night action targeting goes. I got roosh to rebound on himself because I targeted him and story that night, and he targeted story. I targeted Blam and one other person last night, and I'd really rather not say who the other person is until Blam elaborates. I hope this still makes sense. I meant to post this earlier but the thread was crazy. Okay, this is suffficient, now that you've stated this. I received no indication that any action was taken against me last Night.
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Post by Blaster Master on Jun 26, 2008 15:58:04 GMT -5
Well, OK, but lack of evidence does not constitute evidence, is the point I'm trying to make. And my point is that it does constitute evidence when the poster in question is specifically doing his best to deny the town evidence. This is patently false. I have not lacked in providing my opinions on any matter. I have only lacked in providing information that may, directly or indirectly, lead to any information about my specific role. FOA, you continue to refer to my posting style as lurking without justifying it. Even further, I specifically stated that it was consistent with my strategy; that is, it was deliberate. More importantly, the purpose of lurking is do stay under the radar; my posting style has been contrary to this objective because it has been drawing attention. So, I have to ask, what exactly would be my scummy motivation for my posting style? Again, I provided a plethora of possible pro-town motivations for my posting style, but you continue to regard the posting style as scummy without providing any reasons why scum would do it. I'm guessing this is as likely due to townie laziness and scummy misrepresentation, but either way it is not helpful. So, really, either put up or shut up.
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Post by Blaster Master on Jun 26, 2008 16:15:25 GMT -5
If blockey is being honest about Night 4, then my attack must have been blocked somehow, which lends a lot of credence to what NAF is saying. I was reluctant to claim before blockey clarified because the dawn colour seemed to indicate that BLaM has some kind of tough guy role, so I couldn't be sure whether NAF had anything to do with the attack failing. If blockey is telling the truth, though, then I couldn't have attacked BLaM last Night. Someone here is lying. As I said, I received no indication that any action was taken against me. If both you and blockey are telling the truth, then either the color attack on me should have happened to NAF, should have killed him, or shouldn't have happened at all. OTOH, it's possible that you did target me and it failed, that would be a reasonable explanation for the results. It may also make sense if the redirection somehow showed the action happening to me but occurred to someone else, in which case who ever targetted me wasn't a killer but did something else. Either way, considering that blockey IS a claimed anti-town agent, and the explanation for Rysto requires less assumptions, I'm more inclined to believe he's the one lying. Vote Mr. Blockey
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Post by Rysto on Jun 26, 2008 16:20:24 GMT -5
Someone here is lying. As I said, I received no indication that any action was taken against me. If both you and blockey are telling the truth, then either the color attack on me should have happened to NAF, should have killed him, or shouldn't have happened at all. You are assuming that the colour means something, BLaM. I honestly think that atarus was fucking with me; letting me think that the kill was successful for a moment(@ atarus: it worked).
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Blaster Master
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Post by Blaster Master on Jun 26, 2008 16:28:47 GMT -5
Not just the masons need to claim. We can't afford to keep having these crap "I have a power, but I'm not saying what" posts. I'm looking at you Blam. Your actions in this game up til now have been at best anti-town, and at worst pro-scum. We're within 1-3 lynches of game over, and cannot keep having magic bags waved around, nor can we afford to have people swooping in at the last moment with huge info dumps that we don't have time to properly digest. Taken all together, I feel fine with my new vote. For the love of God... really? Where did I claim to have a power? I made no such claim. I specifically said that I would not make a claim. And, much like Rysto, you claim that my actions have been anti-town, but you haven't given a good reason why.
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Post by Blaster Master on Jun 26, 2008 16:41:32 GMT -5
I cannot stay on much longer-= so I m going to have to vote the same way I did yesterDay, as not muhc has really changed: Vote BlaM for being evasive still with his replies and all. I still don't like your activity especially since you've stated it's been a deliberate ploy. It's something that I think is a bad trend for this game and for future games (because I NEVER wanna see another player in the future try to justify this sort of playstyle again, it's just unhl\lepful to the town. The ONLY way I can see such a play being justified is if you were a confirmable Mason or something, and even then- you should have said SOMETHING by this point. So I feel a bitt better about my vote, asince there's been nothing yet from you on the matter of Masonhood. If you are a mason or a confirmable role, \then I'm sorry for the vote, and I wish I could unvote, but I sincerly doubt I'll be online anytime before Friday again. \( , but right now, it's the best I've got, andso I'd like to continue my vote from yesterDay. as nothings really changed from you on the matter. I'm sorry guys, I thought I'd be able to play, and that i'd have access to the 'net, but this just caught me off gaurd, as I thought hotels would provide free internet or at least a decent one too. 5 bucks is WAY too much, and so I'm sorry= hopefully this will NOT be happeneing ever again. Eh, so you probably won't be back Today. I want to address this anyway. You at least provide reasons why you think my behavior is anti-town. However, I DID provide a list of pro-town reasons for acting as I have. No one has disputed any of those points, so I really don't understand why people are continuing to insist my behavior is anti-town. So, fine, you provided your thoughts, but your position that it's scummy is not justified until you've made a point of addressing why my list of possibilities are invalid. Otherwise, my posting pattern is simply a null-tell. Quite frankly, the reason my strategy failed is because there are too many people here who are missing the forest for the trees. You're insisting that certain behavior is scummy because it appears that way, but you're not actually putting any sort of reasoning behind it. This is the same sort of reasoning that got many of us saying storyteller's claim looks scummy because I don't like zombies but then didn't bother to go through and see that it was, as it appeared, a debate over color and something else nonsensical (the potential no-lynch and his possibly being a horseman near his win condition).
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Post by Merestil Haye on Jun 26, 2008 16:48:27 GMT -5
Having just reread pages six and seven of Today, I have reached a conclusion. I don't trust NAF1138 on the evidence of Today. He roleclaimed back in D5.50, but since that appears to have been The Post That Borked Day Five, it got disappeared. Fortunately. Rysto preserved a copy of it. There's one thing I noted about it. He never claimed to be a Survivor. Now that's the sort of thing that would amuse me if I were a Demon; carefully avoid making untruths and let the Town assume things to their own detriment. But, if I was a Demon and felt that explicitly claiming to be a Survivor would enhance my claim, I'd have no compunction doing so. Then we come to the drama. Hockey Monkey makes her post unvoting Story. If (as Storyteller seems to have caught on to) this was asking the Demon leader's permission to kill Story, one of the next 12 posts must have been the "go ahead" response. Of those posts, NAF's post D5.153 is the obvious candidate. Secondly, as Rysto points out, Kison (aka the Specialist Cop) went from voting for HM to ignoring her and voting for NAF instead. What changed his mind? The hypothesis advanced is that he investigated one of those two, and his actions are consistend with finding HM a Survivor or NAF a Demon. For now I'm going to Vote NAF1138.
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Blaster Master
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Post by Blaster Master on Jun 26, 2008 17:12:19 GMT -5
I just got a pm from the mod that clarified my question. If NAF investigated that night he would've gotten the results that he said. due to that Unvote NAFand I'm going to go ahead and Vote Blam, since that's the only other lynch that makes sense to me today. Care to elaborate why? AFAICT, all of the votes have been "His posting style looks scummy" or "It's not helpful to town." If it's the first, it's continued to go unjustified; no one has explained why it is scummy, just that it looks scummy. Particularly as someone who seems to always look scummy to people, it's extraordinarily frustrating when people make blanket statements like that and fail to elaborate. As for it not being helpful, again this is how it played out, but the intentions of my initial strategy were very pro-town, it simply failed to have the expected results.
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Post by Mister Blockey on Jun 26, 2008 17:12:21 GMT -5
I'm wavering between NAF and Blam (more towards Blam), but at the moment there's not much room for others to decide and I have to leave, so in the interest of letting the town make decisions:
Unvote Blam
Vote NAF
That should make a switch up viable if the town so chooses.
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Post by Nanook on Jun 26, 2008 17:44:50 GMT -5
For the love of God... really? Where did I claim to have a power? I made no such claim. I specifically said that I would not make a claim. And, much like Rysto, you claim that my actions have been anti-town, but you haven't given a good reason why. That sure feels like a hint at a role claim. Further, in that same post, you give your reasons why your actions haven't been anti town. Those reasons all relate to a power role of various types. If you're a vanilla survivor, and this is some sort of strategy, you need to get rid of it. All it does is make it next to impossible to interact with you in any meaningful sense of the word, since any back and forth will be restricted to the last hour or so and/or the following Day. This makes it impossible to get a read on you either way, which is a negative for the town and a positive for scum.
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