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Day 1
Jan 26, 2009 20:06:16 GMT -5
Post by tdpatriots12 on Jan 26, 2009 20:06:16 GMT -5
My motivation at the ____ was simply to keep playing, and that was wrong of me. Edit: time
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Day 1
Jan 26, 2009 20:11:35 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Jan 26, 2009 20:11:35 GMT -5
* So in hindsight in that particular game, I probably should have false claimed a power role. Which reminds me of Inara Roosh! In Firefly, Roosh thought he was vanilla, so he fake-claimed a power role (I think it was a 50% chance of any Nightkills targeting him would kill the killer). This kept him alive long enough for him to find out he was really the backup cop. Probably the reason this worked was because he didn't claim a standard powerrole, so he wasn't counterclaimed.
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Day 1
Jan 26, 2009 20:13:54 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Jan 26, 2009 20:13:54 GMT -5
The probably with a false claim like this is that the real power role might counter-claim you. Better a dead vanilla than a dead vanilla and an exposed power role.
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Trepa Mayfield
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Day 1
Jan 26, 2009 20:19:05 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Jan 26, 2009 20:19:05 GMT -5
._. I played one of those Jumpstart games when I was a wee one, and one of the mini games was called Math Blaster. That will probably make my cool points fall. Hey, I played that game too! It was fun.
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Day 1
Jan 26, 2009 20:29:03 GMT -5
Post by Pollux Oil on Jan 26, 2009 20:29:03 GMT -5
._. I played one of those Jumpstart games when I was a wee one, and one of the mini games was called Math Blaster. That will probably make my cool points fall. Well it was actually a reference to another player here (who hasn't played over here in a while...I think.) who liked to use math a lot to explain things. But his nickname came from those math games so you half-got it! ;D I think the reason claiming vanilla when you're on the chopping block doesn't change minds is that it actually makes it easier for the voters to rationalize their vote. They can then add "Well if I'm wrong, at least X is only a vanilla" as opposed to the internal debate of if you're sure enough about your scumdar that you'll risk lynching a claimed power role. Of course, I don't think there are many situations where a power role on the chopping block would refuse to make a claim, so vanillas are pretty much stuck to either claiming vanilla or making something up, which leads me to... Which reminds me of Inara Roosh! In Firefly, Roosh thought he was vanilla, so he fake-claimed a power role (I think it was a 50% chance of any Nightkills targeting him would kill the killer). This kept him alive long enough for him to find out he was really the backup cop. Probably the reason this worked was because he didn't claim a standard powerrole, so he wasn't counterclaimed. Roosh is kind of a special case though. He makes shit up on the fly like nobody's business. But I was going to bring this up too. A vanilla claiming that type of power role (a defensive one) will keep that vanilla out of trouble. But while the scum will WIFOM over targetting the claimer or not, chances are they're not going to risk killing themselves over a power role that can't hurt them if left alone. Which means it generally would have the same net effect of the vanilla person claiming vanilla: it lowers the pool the scum will target by one and gives them a better chance of hitting a real power role. It's a great move if you want to keep yourself in the game for playing purposes but I think it's not as good a team play. Especially since it could have backfired on Roosh. (Oh hey guys, I lied. I'm actually a backup cop.... )
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Day 1
Jan 26, 2009 20:29:07 GMT -5
Post by sinjin on Jan 26, 2009 20:29:07 GMT -5
Pede, I posted this awhile ago and you didn't answer. I assume you missed it because I didn't add color. While others have posted their opinions I would like an official ruling. Thx.Just to make sure I understand, you wrote this pede: Our imposter and the SCUM imposter are the same person? And we (town) win if the imposter is either dead or "trophyfied" too, right? I am slightly paranoid after the last game.
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Day 1
Jan 26, 2009 20:38:44 GMT -5
Post by sachertorte on Jan 26, 2009 20:38:44 GMT -5
Though, in hindsight, and with more experience now, I'd have to admit, I'd think twice about someone claiming Mason when I was one of 4 masons alive. Please No. False claiming Mason is not acceptable under any circumstances*. One of the immutable laws of mafia is that you don't lynch a Mason-claim without a counter claim. Just because someone was silly enough to false claim Mason is no reason to give credence to someone possibly doing it again. That's madness and would severely impede the Town. * I was tempted to false claim Mason in a game where I (vanilla town) was fairly certain there were no Masons (no power roles actually), but I didn't because it's the wrong thing to do. Just don't do it, and punish anyone who does. Really. So in hindsight in that particular game, I probably should have false claimed a power role. Please No. I'm not going to get all storyteller and tell you that Town must never lie, but I will say, if you are going to lie, you'd better have a damn good reason to do so.
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Day 1
Jan 26, 2009 20:42:44 GMT -5
Post by special on Jan 26, 2009 20:42:44 GMT -5
Though, in hindsight, and with more experience now, I'd have to admit, I'd think twice about someone claiming Mason when I was one of 4 masons alive. Please No. False claiming Mason is not acceptable under any circumstances*. When one is dealing with a Scotsman/Investigator/Doctor the normal rules don't apply.
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Trepa Mayfield
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Day 1
Jan 26, 2009 20:44:28 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Jan 26, 2009 20:44:28 GMT -5
Pede, I posted this awhile ago and you didn't answer. I assume you missed it because I didn't add color. While others have posted their opinions I would like an official ruling. Thx. Ironically, I considered answering it, but decided against it, because you didn't color it, so it must not have been meant for me. Anyway, yes, the imposter mentioned in both public win conditions is the same figure. And the town has to kill both the SCUM and this mysterious figure.
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Day 1
Jan 26, 2009 21:14:39 GMT -5
Post by Høøpy Frøød on Jan 26, 2009 21:14:39 GMT -5
I can't think of a single situation where a vanilla claim would convince me to change my vote. Ditto. Doesn't mean one would never come up, but the purpose of a vanilla is to die in the service of your town. It's been awhile since my eyes have glazed over from a post with lots of math. I think I shall dub you MathBlaster V.2.0. (Mathy Frood just doesn't have as nice a ring to it.) And I've just realized half the people playing this game might not get that joke. Oh well, I'm gonna post it anyway. Heh, heh. That was nothing. That was basic probability. BlaM starts breaking out full-on statistical analysis when he gets going using conditional probabilities and such. I usually only understand a fraction of it.
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Day 1
Jan 26, 2009 21:18:54 GMT -5
Post by sinjin on Jan 26, 2009 21:18:54 GMT -5
Pede, I posted this awhile ago and you didn't answer. I assume you missed it because I didn't add color. While others have posted their opinions I would like an official ruling. Thx. Ironically, I considered answering it, but decided against it, because you didn't color it, so it must not have been meant for me. Anyway, yes, the imposter mentioned in both public win conditions is the same figure. And the town has to kill both the SCUM and this mysterious figure. I already understood that we town had to kill the mysterious figure. But the SCUM win if the imposter is killed or trophyfied. Will we (town) win if the imposter is merely trophyfied but not killed?
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Gir!
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Day 1
Jan 26, 2009 21:26:52 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Jan 26, 2009 21:26:52 GMT -5
To add to sinjin's question above:
If the imposter must be killed, can we kill a trophyfied player?
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Trepa Mayfield
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Day 1
Jan 26, 2009 21:27:11 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Jan 26, 2009 21:27:11 GMT -5
Ironically, I considered answering it, but decided against it, because you didn't color it, so it must not have been meant for me. Anyway, yes, the imposter mentioned in both public win conditions is the same figure. And the town has to kill both the SCUM and this mysterious figure. I already understood that we town had to kill the mysterious figure. But the SCUM win if the imposter is killed or trophyfied. Will we (town) win if the imposter is merely trophyfied but not killed?Yes, that would work for the town win con.
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Day 1
Jan 26, 2009 21:34:36 GMT -5
Post by MiteyMouse on Jan 26, 2009 21:34:36 GMT -5
I have to say that I really don't like Vanilla claims either and am almost always sceptical of Doctor claims as, they are hard to back up but, can allow a player to coast through the game.
I don't really like the mass claiming even if it is just names. Though I'm pretty lost on the colour, I think the bigger names might get offed first because it's possible that they are the power roles...or it would be assumed that they are. As for the full claim, I think that the people that hold the roles will know when it is time for them to come out and nobody else can really decide for them when that is.
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Day 1
Jan 26, 2009 21:41:31 GMT -5
Post by Høøpy Frøød on Jan 26, 2009 21:41:31 GMT -5
Thanks for that, Hoopy. I'll admit, I lurked and read SMB mafia while it was still going on - I was still in the middle of my first game (MMM), and you were the first person I'd ever seen who tried to confirm town rather than out scum. It made sense, since it was obviously working for you, but I wasn't sure why it made sense. Now that I have some numbers in front of me, it's clear, so thank you. It definitely changes my opinion on claiming somewhat too. Granted, I don't think it's wise to just reveal yourself as the doctor, since you'd pretty much be stuck self-protecting, but I'm not 100% against claiming either. I am, however, 100% against claiming vanilla town, since that raises the chances of scum NKing a power role, as they're more likely to go for another player at night (and this is, obviously, assuming that the vanilla claimer is just an ordinary player; not someone like AH, who gets NK'd just for being a gifted Mafia player). ANYWAY, thanks again for taking the time to write that post. It was extremely helpful. You're welcome. Remember, though, that there are very few, if any, paradigms in mafia that can't have situations arise that may justify going outside them. Everything is mutable depending on the situation. For example, in SMB there were two investigations I did that weren't necessarily to confirm town. The first was Night 1 when I investigated Special Ed. Because he was involved with the storyteller thing which turned into a debacle over the word debacle, he was a good data point to investigate. While the investigation itself was rather futile, since it turned out I couldn't get readings on third parties it serendipitously led to the outing of the Serial Killer, who we were able to tame for one night to take out scum, and got scum to spend a night kill on taking him out. The other time I investigated with not the express purpose of finding town was when DBI put in her fake slip. I investigated Kat to see what shook out. When Kat came up town, it confirmed that DBI was just WIFOMing. (Actually, it was rather nice of her to hand me a confirmed town investigation on a platter like that.)
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Day 1
Jan 26, 2009 21:44:22 GMT -5
Post by Høøpy Frøød on Jan 26, 2009 21:44:22 GMT -5
NETA: "Remember, though, that there are very few, if any, paradigms in mafia that can't have situations arise that may justify going outside them"
Uhhh, don't try to parse that. That is horribly worded. The gist is that almost every paradigm will encounter a situation that can justify choosing a different strategy. One should always be flexible. Just have a good reason for it.
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Parzival
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Day 1
Jan 26, 2009 22:14:17 GMT -5
Post by Parzival on Jan 26, 2009 22:14:17 GMT -5
It's a great move if you want to keep yourself in the game for playing purposes but I think it's not as good a team play. Especially since it could have backfired on Roosh. (Oh hey guys, I lied. I'm actually a backup cop.... ) And it was this close to doing just that. I was the vig in that game, and after he became cop Roosh checked me out but then sent a dog whistle to me revealing that he knew who I was. Given his previous claim I didn't trust him, and would have killed him that night - except the Crazy Townie killed me on that lynch. I think by tomorrow we should be getting some votes down - even if there isn't much behind them. With the Borda count it is a lot more useful on Day 1 if people vote early so we can see what the point count is like. My feeling is that there are a few types of Day 1 voters - the casual/random/frivolous who don't see much reason one way or the other and just pick names, the strategic types (who vote more against the player/past play than the role), or the analytic (who are desperate to have a reasoned vote, so will build even a thin case). With the Borda count the first group have a greater chance of affecting the vote (and scum can hide on any side but shift things subtly). So it's better to put your votes out early and change it later if you don't like the way it's affecting the point totals.
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Day 1
Jan 26, 2009 22:38:53 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on Jan 26, 2009 22:38:53 GMT -5
* So in hindsight in that particular game, I probably should have false claimed a power role. The town might lynch me later under 'lynch all liars' like Kat! mentioned earlier in this thread, but at least it would have put the pressure on the scum to test the veracity of my claim. It would have been, I think, a better team play, because it had the potential to waste a scum night action. The downside is it could result in an actual power role exposing themselves to counterclaim, thinking they had a scum cornered. Granted, it's just one example, but I think it shows the potential problems with a vanilla claim pretty well. I agreed with you 100% until you got to here. There are a very very specific circumstances under which Town should claim a power role, and they're rare. Had you claimed a power role, you A. ran the risk of outing the real power role if s/he decides to counter you, and B. ran the risk of getting another power role lynched if the train moves off you as a result of your claim. A vanilla facing the noose should almost always just go with it. Claim vanilla, fight the accusations, and be satisfied that Town will get valuable info upon your death. It seems counterintuitive, but in early and mid-game, being lynched as vanilla is a GOOD thing, because at 50% of the time, Scum pushed that lynch.
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Day 1
Jan 26, 2009 22:45:59 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on Jan 26, 2009 22:45:59 GMT -5
Ugh.
"There are very very few specific circumstances under which vanilla Town should claim a power role..."
I'm going to bed.
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Day 1
Jan 26, 2009 23:50:35 GMT -5
Post by sachertorte on Jan 26, 2009 23:50:35 GMT -5
When one is dealing with a Scotsman/Investigator/Doctor the normal rules don't apply. Why do you feel this way? You make the statement as if it is obvious (it isn't) or that we should believe you simply because you say it is so. What justification is there? A mason's job is to counter-claim a false mason. To do otherwise opens the door for scum to false claim mason, which is very very bad. Just because some random Town player thought it a good idea to false claim Mason, doesn't mean it is a good idea or that you should believe a future false claim.
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Day 1
Jan 26, 2009 23:51:16 GMT -5
Post by Mister Blockey on Jan 26, 2009 23:51:16 GMT -5
Ok
This is my standard Day 1 post
I HATE DAY 1
with a passion
I detest it.
You have to either random vote, vote based on something stupid, or vote based on very very weak evidence.
I'm going to hate this day 1 even more because now I have to come up with three people to vote for.
I also hate day 1 because I don't like voting when I'm not even remotely sure, but if you don't vote, even day one, you're automatically on everyone's shit list.
I also hate talking about nothing. Seriously guys. Two pages about when to claim vanilla?
How about never bloody claim anything day one unless you absolutely have to and just bloody leave it at that. Simple, true, and brief.
I'm unlikely to post much more toDay. I don't like posting when I have nothing to say and there's never anything to say Day 1.
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Day 1
Jan 27, 2009 0:02:57 GMT -5
Post by special on Jan 27, 2009 0:02:57 GMT -5
When one is dealing with a Scotsman/Investigator/Doctor the normal rules don't apply. Why do you feel this way? You make the statement as if it is obvious (it isn't) or that we should believe you simply because you say it is so. What justification is there? A mason's job is to counter-claim a false mason. To do otherwise opens the door for scum to false claim mason, which is very very bad. Just because some random Town player thought it a good idea to false claim Mason, doesn't mean it is a good idea or that you should believe a future false claim. Sorry, I guess it's because I'm still a little bitter about it :-) I shan't speak of it again
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Gir!
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Day 1
Jan 27, 2009 0:03:28 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Jan 27, 2009 0:03:28 GMT -5
Well, it's a much more interesting discussion than, say, talking about hating Day 1. Or the more usual "random voting vs lurker voting vs whatever-other-criteria voting".
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Day 1
Jan 27, 2009 0:16:41 GMT -5
Post by sachertorte on Jan 27, 2009 0:16:41 GMT -5
I was tempted to vote for misterblockey, but my feeling is that misterblockey's statements, while remarkably "convenient," are more likely the words of a Townie than that of scum. Scum probably feel the way misterblockey states, but I doubt that scum would actually say it. (Yes, I know "scum wouldn't do that" and all that jazz, but that's how I roll). Yes, the Day One discussion is tedious... it always is. But we have to start somewhere. Everyone needs to comment on stuff, even seemingly innocuous statements can have clues. Finding scum isn't entirely about explicit statements or opinions; it is about piecing together tone and motivation. We need that happy medium between verbose and silent.
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Day 1
Jan 27, 2009 1:00:17 GMT -5
Post by Mister Blockey on Jan 27, 2009 1:00:17 GMT -5
I always say that day 1 sachertorte. You wouldn't know that yet, but I really do.
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Day 1
Jan 27, 2009 1:08:45 GMT -5
Post by harmless little bunny on Jan 27, 2009 1:08:45 GMT -5
I had no problems with Roy except that he was slow. I preferred to use Captain Falcon and Fox in Melee. Now I use Fox, Metaknight, and Olimar in Brawl. I used Ness and Mewtwo. Haven't played Brawl much, but I like R.O.B., Lucario (Mewtwo's spiritual successor), and Ness. to me Lucas is a little better than Ness, but I am not good with either of them. I used to be pretty good with young link and I still use Sheik sometimes just because she is awesome.
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Day 1
Jan 27, 2009 1:37:32 GMT -5
Post by Mister Blockey on Jan 27, 2009 1:37:32 GMT -5
I find that Lucas is a lot better than Ness.
I also like Lucario, and am thrilled to see someone else who likes Olimar.
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Day 1
Jan 27, 2009 2:30:58 GMT -5
Post by harmless little bunny on Jan 27, 2009 2:30:58 GMT -5
I was just looking through the player list. Correct me if I am wrong, but I have not seen or heard Aubby, Pollux Oil, or Nanook.
Senor Pantalones isn't on the player list so I am assuming that he is one of these, but where are the other ones?
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Day 1
Jan 27, 2009 2:44:26 GMT -5
Post by Mister Blockey on Jan 27, 2009 2:44:26 GMT -5
Senor Pantalones is Pollux Oil.
Under his avatar it does say aka Pollux Oil
but also I know him.
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Day 1
Jan 27, 2009 2:46:09 GMT -5
Post by harmless little bunny on Jan 27, 2009 2:46:09 GMT -5
Senor Pantalones is Pollux Oil. Under his avatar it does say aka Pollux Oil but also I know him. I didn't notice that, thanks. What about the other two?
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