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Post by NAF1138 on Feb 18, 2009 11:59:10 GMT -5
Obviously, the latter half of this sentence is demonstrably not true. Hoopy was killed by Night attack. [n]Hoopy [/b] could not be killed by his own knife. Obviously he had no such protection against whoever our other killer was.[/quote] Whoops, this was a mistake. I was typing one thing and already ahead of where I was going in my mind. That Night should be knife. He can't be killed by knife attack. It leads me to believe that you aren't a redirector and that you aren't responsible for the death of Hoopy. I was explicitly told that the knife would be gone in the morning, and my feeling is that the additional kill would benefit the town with information which we are still sorely in need of. Because of BillMC. What inconsistancy? I see no reason for Bill to lie about that, but it doesn't make him town and not third party. He is next on my lynch list if you turn up PFK. But honestly, why lie? And here's a big question: you had said that you were convinced I was Town. And yet you targeted me to kill last Night. Why? [/quote] Re-read my last post. Again, re-read my last post. You're reaching. I'm voting for you because you said you thought I was Town, then tried to kill me. Trying to kill Town = anti-Town, no matter how you spin and slice it.[/quote] I changed my mind about you being town. Re-Read my last post.
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Post by NAF1138 on Feb 18, 2009 12:00:47 GMT -5
Crap, stupid coding. This is what that last post should have looked like: Obviously, the latter half of this sentence is demonstrably not true. Hoopy was killed by Night attack. [n]Hoopy [/b] could not be killed by his own knife. Obviously he had no such protection against whoever our other killer was.[/quote] Whoops, this was a mistake. I was typing one thing and already ahead of where I was going in my mind. That Night should be knife. He can't be killed by knife attack. It leads me to believe that you aren't a redirector and that you aren't responsible for the death of Hoopy. I was explicitly told that the knife would be gone in the morning, and my feeling is that the additional kill would benefit the town with information which we are still sorely in need of. Because of BillMC. What inconsistancy? I see no reason for Bill to lie about that, but it doesn't make him town and not third party. He is next on my lynch list if you turn up PFK. But honestly, why lie? And here's a big question: you had said that you were convinced I was Town. And yet you targeted me to kill last Night. Why? [/quote] Re-read my last post. Again, re-read my last post. You're reaching. I'm voting for you because you said you thought I was Town, then tried to kill me. Trying to kill Town = anti-Town, no matter how you spin and slice it.[/quote] I changed my mind about you being town. Re-Read my last post.
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Post by NAF1138 on Feb 18, 2009 12:01:26 GMT -5
oh well, close enough.
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Post by BillMc on Feb 18, 2009 13:00:05 GMT -5
Ouch, my head hurts reading that exchange between NAF and Storyteller.
If I believe what I saw: NAF did nothing night 1 and night 2 Chameleon couldn't be found on night 3
Storyteller claims Doc with some quirks, and knew that NAF had attacked him. Maybe it's a quirk of the role that he knew who the attacker was, or maybe is was through cause and effect - Hoopy's in pieces, so he quirk is the attack gets redirected (we know Hoopy couldn't be killed with the knife during the day...but at night?
Of course, nothing which I observed would rule out NAF being PFK with no night action (or not performing an obvious night action on night 1 & 2) - and Storyteller could be a PFK Doc; or I could be lying.
But for the sake of argument, if we believe that both NAF and Storyteller are town, then the remaining PFK/NK'ers need to be among: Total Lost, Roxis, or Chameleon - who are kinda quiet.
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Total Ullz
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Post by Total Ullz on Feb 18, 2009 13:11:53 GMT -5
Ouch, my head hurts reading that exchange between NAF and Storyteller. If I believe what I saw: NAF did nothing night 1 and night 2 Chameleon couldn't be found on night 3 Storyteller claims Doc with some quirks, and knew that NAF had attacked him. Maybe it's a quirk of the role that he knew who the attacker was, or maybe is was through cause and effect - Hoopy's in pieces, so he quirk is the attack gets redirected (we know Hoopy couldn't be killed with the knife during the day...but at night? Of course, nothing which I observed would rule out NAF being PFK with no night action (or not performing an obvious night action on night 1 & 2) - and Storyteller could be a PFK Doc; or I could be lying. But for the sake of argument, if we believe that both NAF and Storyteller are town, then the remaining PFK/NK'ers need to be among: Total Lost, Roxis, or Chameleon - who are kinda quiet. And we still could have a PFK NAF with a Day action... I read and re-read - and I still don't get why NAF tried to kill Story! But with 2 deaths possible every Night - I believe the claim of Town doctor makes a lot of sense - scum or no scum!! Vote NAF[/b] until his attempt to kill Story is explained so I can understand it
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Post by BillMc on Feb 18, 2009 13:15:12 GMT -5
Of course, there is also the complete distrust between NAF and Storyteller to consider :-)
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Post by NAF1138 on Feb 18, 2009 13:50:25 GMT -5
Ouch, my head hurts reading that exchange between NAF and Storyteller. If I believe what I saw: NAF did nothing night 1 and night 2 Chameleon couldn't be found on night 3 Storyteller claims Doc with some quirks, and knew that NAF had attacked him. Maybe it's a quirk of the role that he knew who the attacker was, or maybe is was through cause and effect - Hoopy's in pieces, so he quirk is the attack gets redirected (we know Hoopy couldn't be killed with the knife during the day...but at night? Of course, nothing which I observed would rule out NAF being PFK with no night action (or not performing an obvious night action on night 1 & 2) - and Storyteller could be a PFK Doc; or I could be lying. But for the sake of argument, if we believe that both NAF and Storyteller are town, then the remaining PFK/NK'ers need to be among: Total Lost, Roxis, or Chameleon - who are kinda quiet. And we still could have a PFK NAF with a Day action... I read and re-read - and I still don't get why NAF tried to kill Story! But with 2 deaths possible every Night - I believe the claim of Town doctor makes a lot of sense - scum or no scum!! Vote NAF[/b] until his attempt to kill Story is explained so I can understand it [/quote] No? I think Story is PFK. What is hard about that?
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Post by storyteller0910 on Feb 18, 2009 14:25:55 GMT -5
No? I think Story is PFK. What is hard about that? Why? My vote currently hinges on the fact that you have made this claim with no explanation. You just magically went from complete trust to mistrust sufficient to warrant an attempt to kill. Such a huge turnaround must have some reasoning behind it, right? Well, what's yours? But I'm going to unvote you anyway, because I've been working through some scenarios in my head, and I don't think lynching you is the way to go toDay (I will very likely feel differently toMorrow, absent sufficient answer to the question above). Here's an outline of my confused thinking: Why was Chameleon invisible to BillMc? A bunch of circumstantial evidence is building against C - the word of a malicious fairy that he redirected Chameleon onto pedescribe Night One, and now the word of a supposed tracker that he was unable to find Chameleon at all last Night. Ultimately, it comes down to whether or not we believe BillMc is Town. If we do, we probably leave NAF alone for now, and look more closely at Chameleon (and, for me, roxis, whose sketchy response to the Hoopy Frood claim has never been adequately explained). If BillMc is both a tracker and Town, then NAF cannot be the player who killed pedescribe (whether or not NAF is an enemy of the Town). If NAF is not the Night-killer, then the question of his alignment can wait until we have killed the Night-killer. On the other hand, if we do not believe that BillMc is Town, we should probably lynch him straightaway. So in either case, my vote for NAF must go even though my suspicion of him remains. unvote NAF1138Closer look at Chameleon, forthcoming.
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Post by NAF1138 on Feb 18, 2009 14:32:06 GMT -5
No? I think Story is PFK. What is hard about that? Why? My vote currently hinges on the fact that you have made this claim with no explanation. You just magically went from complete trust to mistrust sufficient to warrant an attempt to kill. Such a huge turnaround must have some reasoning behind it, right? Well, what's yours? I will leave the rest of your post alone for now while I cogitate. But the above isn't true. You may disagree with my reasoning but, your knife worked differently than mine did and you claimed a non vanilla role. That was enough for the kill attempt because something strange was going on and I didn't think potentially losing you would outweigh the information gained. You then turned around and voted for me instead of thinking things through and coming to the conclusion you reached in the above post, which makes me think I was right. Maybe we have different perspectives on death in this game and that's where the communication breakdown is happening?
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Post by storyteller0910 on Feb 18, 2009 14:49:49 GMT -5
But the above isn't true. You may disagree with my reasoning but, your knife worked differently than mine did and you claimed a non vanilla role. That was enough for the kill attempt because something strange was going on and I didn't think potentially losing you would outweigh the information gained. Had you succeeded, you would have learned that everything I've said was true. You would have gained no information, and lost the Doctor. And you would have based this on the fact that I claimed a nonvanilla role, and the fact that in a misterblockey game, something weird happened? That's what turned you from "certain I was Town" to sure enough I wasn't to kill me? Particularly since I obviously didn't lie about not using the knife to kill the Night I received it, and obviously didn't lie about still having it, and using it, the following Day. You know what? That doesn't make sense to me. It apparently does to you, but it just does not to me. I think that, if you're Town, it's most likely that when you came into possession of the knife, you decided hat if you had a hammer, you were damn well going to find yourself a nail. If you're Town, you frankly didn't think things through very well. Yes, I voted for you. When I see someone do something suspicious, I frequently vote for them. I'm amazed that you're castigating me for voting for you - which is not, in fact, fatal - when you, on much flimsier reasoning, actually, tried to kill me. What, someone does something that seems Scummy, it's OK to kill them, but not to vote for them? How does that make sense to you?
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Post by NAF1138 on Feb 18, 2009 14:57:20 GMT -5
Story, you are picking and chosing your arguments. If you are nonvainilla then the only reason I had to believe that you were town went out the window.
Death is good for town when they are low on information, and your death seemed to have the biggest potential reward, even the failure of your death brought us a good bit of information.
You claim that I was planning on saying that I didn't have the knife. I do believe I mentioned that I was off to figure out who I planned to use my shiney new knife on when I first posted that I was back in town.
You may disagree with me, but don't accuse me of acting without thought.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Feb 18, 2009 15:08:04 GMT -5
Story, you are picking and chosing your arguments. If you are nonvainilla then the only reason I had to believe that you were town went out the window. I think... I do not understand you at all. The above sentence is gibberish to me. To the rest of the group: if you want to vote for me based on NAF's... uh... arguments... then go ahead, and I'll go the gibbet and y'all can work from there. Otherwise, though, I'm going to drop this until toMorrow, and try to figure out what's going on with all of the quiet people.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Feb 18, 2009 15:09:45 GMT -5
Story, you are picking and chosing your arguments. By the way, I hate it when people say things like that as a substitute for content. Show me where I have "picked and chosen" something, or retract the above statement. The above is true, and I retract that part of my theory.
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Post by NAF1138 on Feb 18, 2009 15:20:49 GMT -5
Sorry, that wasn't fair phrasing I suppose. Let me try again. You are now hinging your whole argument on the fact that I was once "certain that you were town" and then changed my mind. You ignore the reason why I changed my mind and the fact that the basis of my belief that you were town was undermined by your non claim. You also ignore the rest of your previous argument which doesn't jibe with this new one all that nicely and contains a fatal flaw which you have since retracted. You go on to then say that if I am town, then someone gave me a hammer and dammit I was going to find a nail, which frankly is a bit insulting and may have led to my unfair characterisation of the above. It doesn't mean that the above is a fair or logical argument though. Where is my motive for any of this as anything other than town? I also object to your use of scare quotes around "argument" as uneccesarily condecending. You don't get to call me out for being patranising at the start of the game and then turn around and patranize me! That's my gimick and I would like you to find your own.
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Post by Total Ullz on Feb 18, 2009 15:37:32 GMT -5
This gives me flashbacks to when my perents spilt up *runs and hides in a dark corner* Anyway - right now I don't really want to take sides in this debacle (oh, no did I use that word!!!) So right now I'll [color=Re Unvote NAFd][/color] Not really sure right now where my vote will go...
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Post by Total Ullz on Feb 18, 2009 15:38:49 GMT -5
I agree - stupid coding!
Unvote NAF
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Post by storyteller0910 on Feb 18, 2009 16:01:54 GMT -5
OK, NAF, truce for now. Sorry for being a dick.
Let's look at this rigorously.
Six players remain: myself, NAF, BillMc, Total Lost, Roxis, and Chameleon
Of those six, one is (almost certainly, though not completely certain) a "Killing Entity." I'm going to refer to this Killing Entity as KE for the remainder of the argument to follow, for brevity. There may be other folks who mean us harm, but near as I can tell there is only one kill remaining; if we find the person responsible for that kill, we simplify things tremendously. So I think finding the KE is my first priority.
I am not the KE. I know this, of course; let me see if I can convince you. If I were the KE, I would need to also have immunity to Hoopy's knife. Does a role like that: a killer, who cannot be killed at Night, seem reasonable or likely? In a game like this? Forget about it being unfair to the Town; it'd have been unfair to the other independent entities.
BillMc: Could he be the KE? If he is, he's being awfully brazen with that tracker claim, right? It wouldn't take much to catch him out if he has no tracking ability at all. On the other hand, his results have been conveniently unfalsifiable: he claimed to have seen NAF do nothing twice, when NAF had already claimed vanilla and thus would never counter, and then to have been unable to find Chameleon. On the other other hand, seattleguy claimed to have redirected BillMC in such a way as to make Bill's claim make sense; why would seattleguy back up BillMC like that if the latter was lying? I conclude: BillMC is likely to be a tracker (alignment indeterminate), and thus probably not the KE.
NAF: If BillMC is really a tracker, but is lying about NAF and NAF is the KE, the risk Bill would have been taking would have been enormous, and for what gain? Why not just out NAF as a killer? NAF is probably not the KE.
Chameleon: Now things get tricky. If BillMC is definitely a pro-Town tracker, than he findings on Chameleon are quite interesting. If Bill is lying about Chameleon for some reason... well, then that tells us something about Bill. If Chameleon is some sort of "hider," he's probably not the KE, but is almost certainly another third-party (perhaps one that cannot be targeted by any Night actions at all? That would make sense). But if he's that, he's not the KE.
roxis / total lost: Frankly, based on the above, one of these two seems most likely to be the KE just by process of elimination. But knowing whether BillMC is truly pro-Town or not seems important. I just don't want to waste a mislynch on it. I propose the following:
1. Today, we lynch either roxis or total lost. 2. ToNight, I offer the following to the real KE, if we don't catch him/her toDay: I will not protect BillMC. I will generate a random number, and protect myself 75% of the time, and a randomly selected other 25%, but not BillMc. Thus, if you wish to eliminate a tracker and ensure that your kill will not be blocked, target Bill toNight. 3. ToMorrow, if BillMC has been killed, we use his alignment to help us figure out our next step. If he has not been killed, we figure it out from there.
Thoughts?
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Post by storyteller0910 on Feb 18, 2009 16:02:47 GMT -5
Incidentally, I prefer a roxis lynch to a total lost lynch, if my plan above is adopted.
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Post by Total Ullz on Feb 18, 2009 16:11:14 GMT -5
As the good little vanilla I'm trying to be - I'll follow Storys plan if we all agree I'm not sure where it will take us... Why would the KE help ud like that? And what will happen if we mis-lynch toDay, have a town killed toNight (other then BillMC) and then mislynch BillMC tomorrow??? I'm affraid that could put us near LyLo...
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Post by NAF1138 on Feb 18, 2009 16:16:30 GMT -5
Incidentally, I prefer a roxis lynch to a total lost lynch, if my plan above is adopted. I am ok with the truce, since I agree that it is unlikely that you are the KE. Question, why do you prefer roxis to TL?
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Post by Total Ullz on Feb 18, 2009 16:19:53 GMT -5
Incidentally, I prefer a roxis lynch to a total lost lynch, if my plan above is adopted. I am ok with the truce, since I agree that it is unlikely that you are the KE. Question, why do you prefer roxis to TL? I think it's because I'm flirting more ;D
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Post by BillMc on Feb 18, 2009 16:32:29 GMT -5
BillMc: Could he be the KE? If he is, he's being awfully brazen with that tracker claim, right? It wouldn't take much to catch him out if he has no tracking ability at all. On the other hand, his results have been conveniently unfalsifiable: he claimed to have seen NAF do nothing twice, when NAF had already claimed vanilla and thus would never counter, and then to have been unable to find Chameleon. On the other other hand, seattleguy claimed to have redirected BillMC in such a way as to make Bill's claim make sense; why would seattleguy back up BillMC like that if the latter was lying? I conclude: BillMC is likely to be a tracker (alignment indeterminate), and thus probably not the KE. I could say I'm brazen by bitter experience - this is my 4th game (yes newbie in da house) and in the previous 3 I've been town, claimed, and got lynched the same day. I'm just laying out what I know - if you lynch me, so be it. That's the crux of the matter - if Chameleon cannot be targeted by a night action, then SeattleGuy's redirection to Pede would have had no effect. Now it is plausible that mhaye, seattleguy and the KE all targeted Pede on the first night, but doesn't feel right. I also telegraphed that I was going to track Chameleon - so it would be kinda dumb for Chameleon to go walkabout knowing that I was looking. So I'm thinking I may have been blocked...but of course, thats may be what I was supposed to think. WIFOM? I'm ok with (2) - I've made it to the day after I claimed - so a new record life span for me ;D As for who to lynch today - your reasoning for not going after Chameleon today is that you don't 100% trust me - fair enuff. But I'd like to hear from Chameleon and Roxis first.
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Post by Chameleon on Feb 18, 2009 17:21:33 GMT -5
I'm fine with Storyteller's plan and agree with his suspicion of Total Lost and Roxis (I guess mainly because they are relatively quiet - perhaps as not to arouse suspicion). Although I am (naturally) susupicious of Bill as well since he seems to be trying to point suspicion at me in a not *too* obvious way. I have no idea what's going on with why I was missing, but I didn't, and don't have, a night action that I know of that would cause that.
The one thing I wanted to say is that Bill makes an important point - he did very openly state (telegraph? - is that a British thing? - LOL) that he was going to track me last night. If I was a killer, it would have been in my own best interest for me to have killed him last night to prevent him from finding me out. As long as he's suspicios of me the killer can be comfortable that he won't track them. Unless the killer can block his investigation, or he's not a tracker.
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Post by BillMc on Feb 19, 2009 6:51:31 GMT -5
The one thing I wanted to say is that Bill makes an important point - he did very openly state (telegraph? - is that a British thing? - LOL) telegraphed transitive verb. To make known in advance :-)
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Post by BillMc on Feb 19, 2009 7:04:01 GMT -5
The one thing I wanted to say is that Bill makes an important point - he did very openly state (telegraph? - is that a British thing? - LOL) that he was going to track me last night. If I was a killer, it would have been in my own best interest for me to have killed him last night to prevent him from finding me out. As long as he's suspicios of me the killer can be comfortable that he won't track them. Unless the killer can block his investigation, or he's not a tracker. But enough of the joys of the English language. Had the KE taken me out, it would have cast further suspicion on you. By tracking you, and not finding you, it also casts suspicion on you. So if you are the KE, you've chosen the lesser of two suspicious acts (maybe you must act at night, so staying put wasn't an option). However, Total Lost is waving the vanilla townie flag a bit too vigorously, and both of you seem quite happy to lynch Roxis. I must admit, Roxis is unusually quiet. In other games where the beady eye of suspicion has fallen upon her she has been pretty vocal in defending herself - but no here. The prosecution calls Roxis to the stand. Do you promise to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? or lie through your teeth if you are scummy? ;D
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Post by roxis on Feb 19, 2009 8:58:09 GMT -5
The prosecution calls Roxis to the stand. Do you promise to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? or lie through your teeth if you are scummy? ;D So help me God. Yeah, I believe the suspicion on me was based on a post I made assuming Hoopy was telling the truth? I did that in response to a post made by seattleguy, who voted Hoopy, believing he was telling the truth. Obviously, in response to that post, I would be operating under the same assumption. I did the same thing in the current big game. Could I have said "Or Hoopy could be lying"? Yes, but I'm under the impression that trusting someone is ALWAYS ASSUMED, just like "IMO" is redundant, because of course it's your opinion. That's a convoluted mess, I apologize. But the reason I'm not in here defending myself wildly is because I am vanilla town, and because I serve no purpose other than to speculate and provide opinions/whatever little information I know, I'm not opposed to being lynched. It'll provide information for town, and if that's the best I can do, well then, I'm more than happy to be a martyr.
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Post by Total Ullz on Feb 19, 2009 9:55:32 GMT -5
However, Total Lost is waving the vanilla townie flag a bit too vigorously, and both of you seem quite happy to lynch Roxis. I'm waving any flag I'm trying to understand this game - but I find it very confusing. And there could be SO many reasons for you not getting a result from watching Chameleon: 1. His (right? he?) role can selfprotect against you 2. You were blocked in some way 3. He has a Night action - but it did go through because he was blocked 4. The house can protect chosen-ons at Night I don't really see us getting much info from that until one of you are killed/lynched.
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Post by Total Ullz on Feb 19, 2009 9:56:23 GMT -5
Can't edit - but meant: I'm NOT waving any flag
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Post by roxis on Feb 19, 2009 10:06:45 GMT -5
Chameleon = Leslie, TL. So she.
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Post by Total Ullz on Feb 19, 2009 10:09:45 GMT -5
Chameleon = Leslie, TL. So she. SO SORRY!!! Leslie - please forgive me
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