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Post by LightFoot on Mar 8, 2012 20:25:54 GMT -5
and i guess i would ask the rest of the crowd, especially those that questioned hal in "powering" up pleo as being the worst ever idea of the world. how do you reconcile that with the events of this afternoon? just kind of curious. In the colour it states that there was only one honest man in the room ( Pleo/Ed/Hal) Pleo was telling the truth ( or was he entirely honest? we don't know) But if he was then the mod is telling us that Hal was not? I don't think that washes either but it is food for thought. I can back off Hal for now if he continues to seem more Town than earlier BUTT ( yep that's a big butt) he is no more cleared than any other
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Post by LightFoot on Mar 8, 2012 20:35:02 GMT -5
we now have what appears to be 2 sets of mason-like claims
If we started with 5 scum as was surmised by Ed's comment* ( that bucket has holes in it too) It could be a clever way for the remaing 4 to look good.
or I could just be barking at a willow ( I have done that before as well)
* I wouldn't put it past him to tell the truth , knowing we would think it was a lie when he flipped ( see..... tail chasing)
I ruffle feathers thinking out loud and I don't plan on stopping - you can't play the whole game in your head and if you wake up dead no one knows what you were thinking
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Post by peekercpa on Mar 8, 2012 20:41:40 GMT -5
I wanted to save Pleo. Which, in hindsight, was the correct decision, since he was not, in fact, a PFK. <snipped> long winded post coming up that involves some meta game aspects. i enjoy playing this game with you. your approach it a little more analytical than others. i enjoy this aspect of the game. but i am confused as to how you think a non-town killer is ultimately going to be helpful to town. do you have runs on past games that non aligned killers are more beneficial to town than scum? and if they are allowed to live what is their percentage of town to scum kills? or do you have knowledge specific to this run that makes history not compliant with this specific game? and i think killing pleo was absolutely the best play for this game. the fact that we got batty is just icing. to have done otherwise seems less than optimal. but that's where i need your help. i am kind of simple. show me mathematically or even just strategically where taking out a claimed not us is better than taking out potentilly the strongest town role available is more optimal.. and i know i come across as a smart ass and that i otay. but i'd really like to hear it in your words.
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Post by peekercpa on Mar 8, 2012 20:46:23 GMT -5
and before this devolves too much. i have a town role that can be confirmed by a town based on an action. that is merely all that has happened.
if you want to call it mason, that is fine (kind of quacks). i like to think of it as more of an ability of town to confirm town.
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Post by peekercpa on Mar 8, 2012 20:47:35 GMT -5
neta: and certainly i used the term. but what else would you call town that can cross confirm. suggestions are open.
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Post by texcat on Mar 8, 2012 20:52:58 GMT -5
Well done, Pleo!!!!!!!
I apologize for my absence today. It was a long workday.
I need to go back and re-read, but my initial thoughts....
Scum likely would have done anything to prevent losing Ed. I'm inclined to put all of the Pleo voters into the non-scum category. And I am thinking that there are probably quite a few scum among the voters for me.
And surprisingly, even though people argued that we wouldn't learn anything from lynching Pleo, I think we have learned a lot. Thanks to Pleo.
I plan on doing a re-read before I submit my night action, but I am thinking of looking at those who argued strongly against a Pleo lynch. I will certainly read and consider all suggestions for targets, if anyone has anything helpful to give me.
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Post by Dirx on Mar 8, 2012 20:58:41 GMT -5
Hey, I'll admit it. I voted Texcat long after Pleo stated he would kill Ed if he got lynched, and my vote stayed. But Pleo's actions were not a factor in my vote. I thought his reasoning for targetting Ed was stupid, and I disliked his (apparent, at the time) unwillingness to fully cooperate with town, but ultimately I still felt Texcat was scummy and thus a better lynch decision. After her claim, I was less sure, but lacking any other scum leads, I let my vote stand. so now that we have eliminated a 3rd party "killer" and batty does your opinio of tex change? i mean i assume that there are a limited number of killers and that town probably has at least one. or do you feel differently? I don't feel that Pleo's death reveal has any bearing on Texcat's alignment. She can be still be a SK, scum, or exactly what she claims to be.
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Post by Chronos on Mar 8, 2012 21:22:19 GMT -5
Lynching Pleonast was the wrong move because it's always the wrong move for Town to waste a lynch on someone they don't need to kill. We now know 100% for certain that we did not need to kill Pleonast, since Storyteller revealed him as being a Third Party, and he explained exactly what he meant by that term in the rules thread. This would be true regardless of Pleo's actual powers, but his powers mean that he was in effect an even greater loss: He had every incentive of his own to try to hunt Scum as well as possible, and so would have used his powers in the manner which (to his knowledge) would most help Town. That makes him functionally equivalent to a Town power role. Basically, we just lynched someone who had a close resemblance to a vigilante.
Now, it did, in this case, have a very fortuitous side-effect. And trading a power role for a Scum is almost always a good trade, especially if it's a high-value Scum like Ed presumably was. I'm happy with that part of it. That doesn't change that I think that lynching Pleo was the wrong play, and that we just got lucky out of it.
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Post by Chronos on Mar 8, 2012 21:26:39 GMT -5
Oh, and for the benefit of Archangel trying to catch up, my notes: Day/Night 1: Inner Stickler votes Mahaloth, for traditionIdle under the impression that there are no vanillasChronos suggests people post acrostics of role PMsSpecial Ed edits, asks to be voted forChronos votes Special Ed for posting noise, not participating, trying to get lynchedMeeko votes Special Ed for noiseCookies votes Chronos for acting on proposal without discussion, baseless vote on Special EdSpecial Ed claims not to have a vote-activated power; is no longer drunkSpecial Ed edits againpeeker votes Chronos for convoluted reasoning re: votes on Edpizzaguy votes peeker for being full of golden crap nuggets; says that one of Ed or peeker is scumSpecial Ed says that peeker being clear can be a scum tellpeeker thinks pizzaguy is full of shitGadarene FoSes pizza for "peeker or ed" commentInner Stickler says that most of Ed's posts have been on-topicGuiri votes Drain Bead for noiseTexCat speculates that Batman might not be scumDrain Bead justifies noisy participation by only having iPad access on weekendsInner Stickler says he should probably remove his joke vote on Mahalothpizzaguy explains "peeker or ed" comment; further justifies vote on peeker; suggests that those who have yet to vote spread the votes outSilver Jan votes Inner Stickler for not taking his joke vote off MahalothBillMC quotes from his PM, speculating that Batman might not be Bruce WayneMahaloth votes Rysto for the vig-vote ideaInner Stickler wants to move his vote less and lessSBrOwn initially suspeced special ed and Chronos; doesn't think all the scum would stand up for Ed; FoSes Ed; thinks she should cast a voteSBrOwn votes Silver Jan for her Inner Stickler voteHal Briston says that he also wondered if the game was no-vanilla, but double-checked the opening rules; votes Idle ThoughtsSuburban votes Meeko for his interactions with Special EdPleonast confirms role, claims Joker, posts role PMHal Briston votes and unvotes everyone (and re-votes Idle) to activate Pleonast's killing joke powerpeeker was thinking of doing something like Hal's mass-votePleonast votes Meeko for accusing Chronos of talking; unvotes, votes Ed for editing (suspects a secret message); discusses other pointsMeeko unvotes Ed, votes Suburban for omitting a key post in summary of MeekoSpecial Ed suggests lynching Pleo, but doesn't votePollux Oil votes Pleo since he might be PFK; unvotes him and votes Hal for empowering himSuburban Plankton suspicious of people voting and unvoting in the same post, which might activate powersLightFoot votes Hal for empowering PleoSilver Jan unvotes; votes Hal for empowering PleoGadarene thinks Hal empowering Pleo was anti-TownMeeko unvotes Suburban; votes Hal for his mass vote-unvote (which might have sinister motivations)Cookies unvotes Chronos, votes Pleo, since he's at least not Town; eyeball of shame on HalNanook votes Pleo; thinks he's lying about his sideTexCat votes Pleo, thinks sooner is better than later, and lynching a PFK is better than lynching TownChronos muses about Pleonast; unvotes Ed and votes Gadarene for twice suspecting without voting; still suspects Ed; FoSes Inner Stickler for holding on to joke vote, defending EdAstral votes Pleonast, suspects he's PFK; suspects Meeko for talking about Chronos but voting for Ed; suspects Hal for for powering up Pleo, doing the same thing he voted Idle forTotal Ullz doesn't think a Pleo-lynch is a good idea since it yields no information; thinks TexCat might be Scum hiding on the bandwagon; attempts to vote himTotal Ullz accidentally votes for PleonastTotal Ullz unvotes Pleo, corrects to vote for Texcatscathach doesn't think Pleo is the best lynch, since others might take him out for us, agrees with Total UllzSBrOwn points out possibility that the Joker might have a partner Harley Quinn; unvotes; votes Pleonast for being scummiestscathach votes Meeko for noise, overreactionsgnarlycharlie votes Cookies for voting Pleo despite it producing no information, possibly suspects Texcat; FoSes SBrOwn for finding Pleo scummyGadarene votes Pleonast so as not to give him time to activate his mask, doesn't believe he can win with Townsinjin votes Pleo, to take him out sooner rather than laterBillMc votes Pleo, thinks he's lying because he can't see motivation for first postSuburban convinces himself, unvotes Meeko, votes PleoSpecial Ed doesn't thin we should even consider that Pleo might be honest, attempts to vote PleoHal Briston unvotes Idle Thoughts, votes TexCat for implication of knowing that Hal is not ScumSpecial Ed successfully votes for PleonastSpecial Ed claims to be a Jack of All Trades, day protection isn't one of his powersSpecial Ed claims to be TownDrain Bead votes Texcat for post-hoc justification, no other contributionChronos doesn't think Pleo can be PFK, since he can win while deadChronos claims to know one of the Scum's cover roles, reiterates request for acrosticsHal posts acrosticMeeko thinks Hal might have mass-voted to activate a power of his ownCookies posts acrosticInner Stickler posts acrosticBillMc posts acrosticMahaloth posts acrosticSpecial Ed posts acrosticssinjin posts acrosticNanook posts acrosticDirx posts acrosticTexcat suspects Chronos, but posts acrosticgnarlycharlie posts acrosticSBrOwn posts last letters of a couple of sentences of her PMGadarene posts acrosticPollux posts acrosticpizzaguy objects to acrostic idea as unsportingscathach posts acrosticscathach unvotes Meeko, votes Texcat for considering risk to herself rather than TownSilver Jan objects to acrostics as boringTotal Ullz posts acrosticDrain Bead FoSes sinjin for pointing out slip but not voting for it; posts acrosticPizzaguy unvotes Peeker, votes Astral for lurkingHal would vote for TexCat if not for Pleo, has a gut feeling that Silver Jan is scumGadarene would vote for TexCat or Hal if not for PleoSpecial Ed unwilling to lynch ChronosSuburban posts list of players who haven't voted; Dirx stands outHal Briston was actually thinking of Lightfoot, not Silver JanSuburban Plankton objects to acrostics on principle, and thinks Scum could easily circumvent itpizzaguy corrects vote formattingsinjin would vote for Texcat for PIS, or MHaye for starting vig debate then disappearing, or peeker just because, if not for PleoTexCat would vote for Sinjin, for being so sure of PIS, or Drain Bead, for not voting Sinjin for it, if not for PleoSpecial Ed would be willing to switch from Pleo to TexCatMahaloth attempts to unvote Rysto, since case is based on low-relevance early stuff; votes TexCat for post 589Special Ed unvotes Pleo; votes TexCatAstral Rejection checks in, approves of TexCat, but would prefer to see Pleo lynched firstMahaloth corrects formatting on voteSuburban points out that Pleo could use his Paranoia ability on himself right nowInner Stickler unvotes Mahaloth, votes TexCat, would rather she dieMerestil Haye checks in, posts acrosticMeeko is pinged by gnarlycharlieCookies most suspects Hal, after Pleo: Doesn't like button-pushing, too quick to assume Chronos telling the truthDirx thinks Meeko has been paranoid, thinks that's a Town sign for himastralrejection's second choice would be TexCatpeeker unvotes, votes Pleo, odd for Town to trust someone not on their sideChronos discusses acrostic-plan; argues against Pleo lynch; thinks that Pleo is Batman's problem, not Town's; unvotes Gadarene and votes TexCat for others' arguments and to prevent Pleo lynchMeeko declines to handshakeRysto posts acrostic, opposes Pleo lynch because it gives no informationRysto votes TexCat for cooperating with Chronos despite thinking he's lyingpizzaguy unvotes Astral since he explained his low activity, votes TexCat since he comes down in favor of Pleo and against TexCatAstral declines to post an acronymDirx votes Texcat for potential PiS and for protesting too much against acrostic ideaTexCat claims Ra's Al Ghul (vigilante)Drain Bead unvotes TexCat, votes sinjinscathach unvotes TexCatSpecial Ed claims killing is one of his powersPleonast states his kill order: Ed if he's lynched, otherwise the second placeHal Briston says that "gotham" does appear in his role PMSpecial Ed offers some information from his role, in case he diesTotal Ullz' PM says nothing about destroying Gotham; implies wanting the pre-Bat status quoSilver Jan's PM looks like the "good guys" want to destroy GothamSpecial Ed questions the lack of a numeral in TexCat's powersLightFoot posts acrosticSilver Jan posts acrosticSuburban Plankton's PM does not contain "destroying Gotham"gnarlycharlie hesitant to lynch Pleo or Texcat; unvotes Cookies and votes Suburban for using "mislynch" of Lightfootpeeker has a power that kind of blows, it says "powers" but has only one, with no numeralSilver Jan's PM says the same thing as peeker'sThe structure of Suburban's PM is consistent with TexCat'sPeeker posts acrosticDirx finds it odd that Jan and Plankton were against acrostic, but fine with similarly-metagamey PM informationMerestil Haye doesn't trust either of top two candidates, votes Texcat because her PM reads like a SKInner Stickler isn't moving his vote from TexCat, since her claim was so late and she left discussionPleonast unvotes, votes for TexCat, so as to be voting for the lynch leaderHal Briston unvotes TexCat, votes Pleonast, in self-defenseArchangel arrivesDirx is getting townie vibes from HalEnd of Day 1; Storyteller unsure of vote leadOfficial end of Day vote countDeath reveals: Pleonast 3rd party Joker, Special Ed Scum BatmanGadarene can clear peekerPollux Oil raises question of discussing what TexCat should dopeeker considers Tex and Hal semi-confirmed, wants to look at her voterspeeker knows Gadarene's alignment, thinks there might be another mason-type setuppeeker comments to gadarene about a number between 1 and 5Gadarene clarifies that he got a word of Mod message that peeker is definitely TownGadarene: "Blue diego hunts wisely"peeker doesn't mind dying at this pointTotal Ullz implies being a mason-typepeeker's messaging power only works on TownChronos thinks we should ignore everything Ed claimedTexCat also suspects her voters
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Post by Inner Stickler on Mar 8, 2012 21:32:29 GMT -5
What did we learn today? Proboards does not support the spoiler tag.
But my stomach supports beer. *hic*
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Post by peekercpa on Mar 8, 2012 21:38:51 GMT -5
fuck it. i have seen enough.
chronos[ gets a pass for that beast.
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Post by Mahaloth on Mar 8, 2012 21:40:52 GMT -5
Dude, Chronos, that is sweet.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Mar 8, 2012 22:03:34 GMT -5
Some of y'all have a very different definition of 'fun' and 'game' than I.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Mar 8, 2012 22:11:13 GMT -5
so now that we have eliminated a 3rd party "killer" and batty does your opinio of tex change? i mean i assume that there are a limited number of killers and that town probably has at least one. or do you feel differently? I don't feel that Pleo's death reveal has any bearing on Texcat's alignment. She can be still be a SK, scum, or exactly what she claims to be. Anything is possible, but I doubt that texcat is Scum unless Hal is also. At one point the vote was Pleo-11, and texcat and Hal tied at 4. After that the texcat wagon took off, and nobody else even looked sideways at Hal. If texcat were Scum, I think there would have been at least a token effort to get some votes on Hal...unless he was also Scum. I haven't looked back over the Day to see if there are any interactions which suggest this, but I didn't get a Scummy vibe from Hal. Then again, I didn't get a Scummy vibe from Ed, either :/
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Mar 8, 2012 22:13:47 GMT -5
Y'know, I quickly reviewed Chronos' summary post above, and found it to be remarkably objective, at least where I am concerned.
Well Done, Sir!
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Post by texcat on Mar 8, 2012 22:23:49 GMT -5
I don't feel that Pleo's death reveal has any bearing on Texcat's alignment. She can be still be a SK, scum, or exactly what she claims to be. I think you can assume that I am not scum. If I were scum, I would not have voted Pleo.
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Post by Inner Stickler on Mar 8, 2012 22:29:07 GMT -5
Why would a scum texcat have not voted for pleo?
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Mar 8, 2012 22:44:06 GMT -5
Why would a scum texcat have not voted for pleo? I assume because of Pleo's promise to kill Ed, which the Scum would have wanted to avoid, or at the very least not aid.
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Post by texcat on Mar 8, 2012 22:44:58 GMT -5
Chronos, that was an awesome post. You missed one critical post, however. #468 when Pleonast announced that if he were lynched that he would take out Ed. I point out that at that time, I had exactly one vote from Total. It was after that announcement that the wagon on me took off. Inner, do you think the rest of the scum team would let me vote Pleo, and take out Batman, in self-defense? When no one suspected Ed particularly? And when it looked like I might be a goner anyway? Do you think I would do that as scum?
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Post by Inner Stickler on Mar 8, 2012 22:47:15 GMT -5
I assume because of Pleo's promise to kill Ed, which the Scum would have wanted to avoid, or at the very least not aid. At least one poster in this thread has already exonerated the entirety of the voters for Pleonast of scumminess. Are you going to look me right in the avatar and say a scum wouldn't want a piece of that delicious Townie Cred pie?
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Post by Inner Stickler on Mar 8, 2012 22:53:28 GMT -5
What do you mean, do I think the scum team would let you? Teammates can give advice and coaching but unless it's related to a role function, in the Day threads, every scum is an independent agent. A scum team that's on the ball and thinking longterm is absolutely going to want to stack the pleo voters with at least one or two teammates for two reasons. It was a tossup until literally minutes before the day ended who was going to be lynched. Even if you had been lynched, on whatever Day down the line where Ed's alignment is revealed, everyone voting for pleo would have received townie cred ex post facto.
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Post by Inner Stickler on Mar 8, 2012 22:54:37 GMT -5
Stupid rephrasing of thoughts. The two reasons are: it's a tossup and Ed's reveal creates townie cred for pleo voters regardless of when it happens.
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Post by texcat on Mar 8, 2012 22:55:56 GMT -5
At least one poster in this thread has already exonerated the entirety of the voters for Pleonast of scumminess. Are you going to look me right in the avatar and say a scum wouldn't want a piece of that delicious Townie Cred pie? That one person was me. I think we will find no scum among the Pleo voters. Which is not to say we shouldn't keep looking at them; there may be any number of PFKs among them. While I think that they would want a piece of the town cred, I think they would rather have their precious superhero alive. And with the vote as close as it was, any scum who was around to change their vote, I think would have changed it.
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Post by Inner Stickler on Mar 8, 2012 22:59:49 GMT -5
Perhaps. On the other hand, Pleo was riding Ed hard. There was no guarantee that as long as he was alive, he'd lead ed alone. Sometimes you sacrifice the queen so no one notices your bishops.
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Post by Inner Stickler on Mar 8, 2012 23:00:28 GMT -5
FUCK
leave ed alone
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Post by Pollux Oil on Mar 8, 2012 23:12:03 GMT -5
That one person was me. I think we will find no scum among the Pleo voters. Which is not to say we shouldn't keep looking at them; there may be any number of PFKs among them. I think that's a sweeping generalization that shouldn't be made. There may have been scum stuck on the Pleo train that didn't want to out themselves. Last game when I was playing as a wolf, I had votes for you and mahaloth and was pretty much stuck into them once the trains took off because I didn't want to out myself (not that it mattered, dumb Witches). People that voted for Pleo before he said he was going to take out Ed could be scum. I still stand by my statement that scum would have wanted to take out Pleo using a lynch and not their own Nightkill, so I'd guess there are some votes there. It wouldn't surprise me if there was at least one scum that was playing chicken with everyone else and/or Pleonast, hoping to stick to the Pleo wagon while at the same time hoping enough townies voted you to save Ed. OR hoping that Pleo would mess up his kill order and spare Ed. OR Pleo would get selfish and use a different power than the Killing Joke.
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Post by texcat on Mar 8, 2012 23:24:26 GMT -5
You are correct. Sweeping generalizations are not good. And you have brought up some good reasons why scum might have voted Pleo, but I'd be willing to bet a beer that they didn't.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Mar 8, 2012 23:24:29 GMT -5
I assume because of Pleo's promise to kill Ed, which the Scum would have wanted to avoid, or at the very least not aid. At least one poster in this thread has already exonerated the entirety of the voters for Pleonast of scumminess. Are you going to look me right in the avatar and say a scum wouldn't want a piece of that delicious Townie Cred pie? I wasn't planning to. Why would you ask that question, when that isn't even remotely close to what I actually said?
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Post by Inner Stickler on Mar 8, 2012 23:31:00 GMT -5
Clearly I was misled by your saying the scum wouldn't do anything that would endanger Ed.
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Post by Pollux Oil on Mar 8, 2012 23:42:32 GMT -5
Just as general musings, it's kind of funny how the symmetry of the two games worked out. In the first Arkham, Batman was the last scum to die, watching all his compatriots fall around him, finally succumbing after ten Days of hard fighting and ducking and weaving. And in this game, Batman is the very first casualty, leaving the rest of his team by their lonesome to take up the mantle of the Bat.
Kind of weird how it worked out like that.
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