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Post by CatInASuit on Mar 20, 2008 11:25:37 GMT -5
Your Confused!!
Easily the largest Scum tell today just happens to come from someone who looks to be townie and is probably confirmable.
Oh grief.
unvote Hockey Monkey
If you are townie, stop being so scummy. If you are scum, well everyone more or less believes you now anyway. So what does it matter.
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Hockey Monkey!
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Post by Hockey Monkey! on Mar 20, 2008 11:28:19 GMT -5
Alright, NAF1138 was right and I'm wrong Yes, Hockey Monkey was the first to mention the "definitely a Baddie" from the Role PM. This means she is more likely to be town than not. However, I haven't seen anything else as scummy as her vote and as we should vote for what we think is scummiest, my vote is going to stay. So you think I'm likely town, but are going to vote for me anyway? CAIS, that makes no bloody sense whatsoever! I'm going to hold my vote for the moment, because I fear it's more OMGUS than anything, but I need to marinate on this for a while. No, it still seems like you've been flinging poo and you are just trying to get this particular handful to stick. vote CAIS
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Mar 20, 2008 11:28:52 GMT -5
Just when I'm about to move my vote off of you, Cat...
The PPMRs (Primary PM Revealers) should not be getting votes, and we shouldn't devote time right now by putting them under the microscope. They are in the same category as the two claimed Mason's. We can't necessarily be 100% sure that any of them are town, but the Town can simply not afford to overlook the fact that they have all taken risks in the decisions to divulge what they have divulted (I think it is more likely for townies to take such public risks so early in the game), and the fact that we can't be 100% sure that any of them are scum either. All of that adds up by my calculations as: Leave them all alone for now.
So I hereby FOS all of you who are actively pursuing (or even thinking about pursuing) cases against Hockey, Dark Smurf, zuma, NAF, or Mole, and there are likely people missing from this list, so if you were the first to reveal a chunk of your PM, please yell. Hell, I'm not even putting myself on that list because no one else has come forward to confirm that their PM didn't include a twiki link either. So, ironically, I'd be more comfortable with people coming after me than coming after these others.
At this point I'm debating switching my vote from Cat to drain, mostly because drain has taken up interest in the cases against two people on my above list: Hockey and NAF.
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Hockey Monkey!
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Post by Hockey Monkey! on Mar 20, 2008 11:32:04 GMT -5
Your Confused!! Easily the largest Scum tell today just happens to come from someone who looks to be townie and is probably confirmable. Oh grief. unvote Hockey Monkey If you are townie, stop being so scummy. If you are scum, well everyone more or less believes you now anyway. So what does it matter. The good news is...I'm not scum! unvote CIASI really need to learn either patience or preview.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Mar 20, 2008 11:34:41 GMT -5
And with Cat's unvote, that settles it.
Unvote CatInASuit[/color] Vote drainbead[/color]
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Santo Rugger
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Post by Santo Rugger on Mar 20, 2008 11:39:24 GMT -5
<snip>If you are townie, stop being so scummy. If you are scum, well everyone more or less believes you now anyway. So what does it matter. Huh? And Cookies, why are you voting for DrainGead? And Hockey, you specifically said you didn't want to OMGUS Cat, but then removed your vote from him as soon as he removed his vote for you, even though him removing his vote didn't change the fact that he voted for you in the first place? I don't understand.
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Post by Boozahol Squid, P.I. on Mar 20, 2008 11:46:06 GMT -5
County County County Votey Votey Votey
CatInASuit 1 (brewha) Molefan 1(kassia) kassia 1 (zuma) ryjae 3 (hawkmanop,sinjin,tdpatriots12) drainbead 1(Cookies)
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Post by tdpatriots12 on Mar 20, 2008 11:47:03 GMT -5
I'm not sure about "quality post theory It's not strictly relevant. The QP could be a complete waste of time, I only went over it in the interests of full disclosure and to help explain my reasons for voting. Basically it's why I was going over his posts to begin with. It wasn't what made me suspicious of ryjae because other people had similar "QP percentages" and didn't feel scummy to me. For example hockeymonkey had something like a 14% quality post rate. However in her case, I think that it's simply just a reflection of her style so if I voted for her based on my little study, attempts for me to back it up using the stats would be weak and pointless. Doesn't mean she can't possibly be scum, just that QP didn't reveal her as one to me. On a final QP note; I did get the feeling that if I had data covering an entire game and knowing what role everyone was then applying it to those stats, then I might actually learn something, but that's probably what it would take. There's just too many legitimate things that can count for a wide array of QP% among posters. That is, I will admit, a strong possibility. But I need to be convinced by ryjae himself. I'm not expecting any particular defense. What bothered me about ryjae's response in my replies was his tone, which I misread because I genuinely believed I was the first to vote for him, in which case such a strong response wouldn't have been warranted in my opinion. Even so, his posting behavior through my eyes looks scummy. Hence my vote. His defense basically states that I, not him, am opportunistic (which can't be true unless I'm making up this whole QP thing - given how many hours I wasted on it and the fact I posted the idea on Day 1 page 1), am jumping on a bandwagon (which is legitimate, I would find it hard to believe that someone didn't know that they were the third vote, but I will stand by my account), saying that he is new and needs explanations, throwing out a false dilemma, then calling me out over the wording of my accusations (which I believe I adequately explained). To answer your question, I would be satisfied with a defense that starts with, "I am not scum because." Or someone else strikes me as more scummy (not an impossibility), then I'll lay off.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Mar 20, 2008 11:59:42 GMT -5
Quoting drain:
She's looking at 2 people in my short list of people who I believe are more likely town than people not on the list. People who have taken risks to divulge information, and had that information at least somewhat confirmed by others, and not overtly countered by others.
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Post by ryjae on Mar 20, 2008 12:04:26 GMT -5
I would try that but it seems rather stupid for me to say "I am not scum because I'm well not" but I will say this my posts where so frequent because I was just throwing out any little thing on my mind because I had*1 nothing to fear. When something was odd to me I said so, even at risk of making myself a target. Was that a dumb play? Probably because it didn't result in anything but my posting a lot and my posts being over analyzed*2. tdpatriots I respect your vote on me more so now than I did last night, not because its valid but because at least you're defending it. 1. I thought wrong obviously 2. Posting a lot has its advantages and disadvantages, advantage that you're not lurking and possibly throwing something out to help the rest of town, disadvantage people see your name a lot and watch your posts and no matter what you say something someone clings onto as a scummie thing to say. That's why I am more watching now rather than posting.
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Post by Santo Rugger on Mar 20, 2008 12:14:06 GMT -5
<snip> She's looking at 2 people in my short list of people who I believe are more likely town than people not on the list. People who have taken risks to divulge information, and had that information at least somewhat confirmed by others, and not overtly countered by others. Looking at them? Just because somebody's on your probably town list doesn't mean they shouldn't be looked at anymore. Heck, I have half a mind that there's still something fishy going on with NAF and mole. Pointing out inconsistencies, which is what you're voting for Cat for doing, is not a bad thing, IMHO.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Mar 20, 2008 12:20:59 GMT -5
Voting for drain, you mean, I assume.
If you think sniffing around on that list is the best thing to be doing right now, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.
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Post by Santo Rugger on Mar 20, 2008 12:36:28 GMT -5
Voting for drain, you mean, I assume. If you think sniffing around on that list is the best thing to be doing right now, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. Yes, I meant drain, sorry. I didn't say sniffing around on that list was the best thing to be doing, I said that inconsistencies in posts of those on that list shouldn't be disregarded.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Mar 20, 2008 13:21:59 GMT -5
She's looking at 2 people in my short list of people who I believe are more likely town than people not on the list. People who have taken risks to divulge information, and had that information at least somewhat confirmed by others, and not overtly countered by others. Interestingly enough, you, yourself, are looking at someone on my short list of people who I believe are more likely town than people not on the list. A person who has taken a risk to divulge information, and had that information at least somewhat confirmed by others. hockey monkey was the first player in the game to mention the "definitely a Baddie" construction that appears in my own PM and in that of others (if others are to be believed, which of course, they're not necessarily, but we go with what we have). So you are castigating hockey monkey for just looking at players who have revealed information and who can be considered partly cleared, but you yourself are voting for such a player? Hey, I'll go with a vote Cookies for that one. But this is a bit of a temp vote; more extensive analysis is required, and I'll get to it momentarily.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Mar 20, 2008 13:23:57 GMT -5
unvote Cookies
Or not. How the hell did I get that mixed up? I read "drainbead" and my mind said "hockey monkey."
Jesus, I'm an idiot today.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Mar 20, 2008 13:26:24 GMT -5
The way this game is going, I think the Bastard Mods have managed to slip us all mickeys. Roosh is in med school right?
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Post by NAF1138 on Mar 20, 2008 13:26:41 GMT -5
She's looking at 2 people in my short list of people who I believe are more likely town than people not on the list. People who have taken risks to divulge information, and had that information at least somewhat confirmed by others, and not overtly countered by others. Interestingly enough, you, yourself, are looking at someone on my short list of people who I believe are more likely town than people not on the list. A person who has taken a risk to divulge information, and had that information at least somewhat confirmed by others. hockey monkey was the first player in the game to mention the "definitely a Baddie" construction that appears in my own PM and in that of others (if others are to be believed, which of course, they're not necessarily, but we go with what we have). So you are castigating hockey monkey for just looking at players who have revealed information and who can be considered partly cleared, but you yourself are voting for such a player? Hey, I'll go with a vote Cookies for that one. But this is a bit of a temp vote; more extensive analysis is required, and I'll get to it momentarily. Story, not to talk for cookies or anything, but I think she was defending HM not smudging her. It was CIAS and DB she was going after.
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Post by NAF1138 on Mar 20, 2008 13:27:25 GMT -5
unvote CookiesOr not. How the hell did I get that mixed up? I read "drainbead" and my mind said "hockey monkey." Jesus, I'm an idiot today. Never mind. I hate the preiview function on these boards.
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Post by Holy Moley! on Mar 20, 2008 13:33:54 GMT -5
<snip>Put me in the newb crew right now<snip> No. There's no such thing as a newb crew! As I just finished saying, lumping players together is bad, bad, bad. If X is scum, then Y is town is a horrible way to think, because there's a chance they're both town. Or both scum. But only scum know that, so they can manipulate the groups two get two people lynched, or no people lynched. I'm not really articulating why it's bad right now, perhaps somebody can help me out, but I know it's already been mentioned at least once in this Game. OK... first, can you say ANYTHING in this game without it being taken out of context and used as a reason to find you suspicious? I'M A MASON. MASON = NOT SCUM. Santo, I don't think a half-joking reference to "newbs sticking together" needs several paragraphs' analysis to determine whether or not it's "scummy" or not. In your effort to analyze the exact phrasing of my posts, to strip them down into minituae and look for anything that could be considered suspicious, you appear to have completely missed the point I was trying to make. So here's a hint: before you jump on a "suspicious" sentence, which in this case when taken in context is A JOKE, read the damn post in its entirety and understand what it means! My point is that there's a lot of etiquette here, a lot of things which are "accepted", and a lot of "ways" of doing things. It seems to me that most people's complaints about Ryjae have more to do with this than with genuine "scumtells". I voted him myself because he pounced on the "role" and basically said he'd vote for me unless I revealed, to the entire cast, the details of this "role". Afterwards I backed off and so did he, because would a genuine scum be that aggressive that early? I think not. Ryjae seems to me to be an overenthusiastic, somewhat aggressive human who doesn't know the "etiquette" here and is being pulled up for it a lot. Is he a wolf? Probably not, although I can't be sure of that. Am I going to vote him? No. Does the evidence put up against him stand up? Not to me - the actions ascribed to him fit as well with a clumsy human as they do with a wolf, if you interprit them differently. I was watching him throughout Molegate and I couldn't find any reason to put him above anyone else as a suspect. He comes off as clumsy and aggressive - still. If he was a wolf, I would think his partners would have told him to tone it down a bit since Molegate. Well, he hadn't done so in that argument with TD. The conclusion I draw from that is that most likely he doesn't have partners. He's blundering about on his own, trying to find a foothold. Conclusion: he's PROBABLY not a wolf. I'm not ruling him out completely. But I'm doubtful enough to say for certain that I'm not voting him now.
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Post by Boozahol Squid, P.I. on Mar 20, 2008 13:34:09 GMT -5
The way this game is going, I think the Bastard Mods have managed to slip us all mickeys. Roosh is in med school right? The only drugs we've given you are ones that deluded you guys into thinking that we'd let grammatical consistency between Role PMs break our game. Those ones sure worked, though.
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Post by NAF1138 on Mar 20, 2008 13:36:26 GMT -5
The way this game is going, I think the Bastard Mods have managed to slip us all mickeys. Roosh is in med school right? The only drugs we've given you are ones that deluded you guys into thinking that we'd let grammatical consistency between Role PMs break our game. Those ones sure worked, though. Well that tears it. vote Dio for drugging us. . . . . . unvote dio (I am afraid of the mods...a little)
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Post by Santo Rugger on Mar 20, 2008 13:44:32 GMT -5
<snip> I'M A MASON. MASON = NOT SCUM. Santo, I don't think a half-joking reference to "newbs sticking together" needs several paragraphs' analysis to determine whether or not it's "scummy" or not.<snip> MASON = How the hell do I know your win condition is exactly the same as mine? But maybe you're right. Instead of being suspicious of everybody, I should just laugh at everything they say. That oughta help us root out some scum!
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Post by Rysto on Mar 20, 2008 13:44:55 GMT -5
He comes off as clumsy and aggressive - still. If he was a wolf, I would think his partners would have told him to tone it down a bit since Molegate. Well, he hadn't done so in that argument with TD. The conclusion I draw from that is that most likely he doesn't have partners. Typically in the games here, the scum aren't allowed to communicate off-board during the Day. That isn't necessarily the case in this game, but keep in mind that Ryjae could be scum and his fellow scum haven't been able to tell him to back off some. There's also the possibility that he's on his own and Playing For Keeps. Personally, I think that the scum Playing For Keeps are on a team(I'm guessing a small one with extra powers, but that's a total guess), but we shouldn't be discounting possibilities with a reason to do so. Personally, I haven't got all that scummy a read off of Ryjae but I feel that it's important to make sure that the town doesn't get caught making invalid assumptions.
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Post by Holy Moley! on Mar 20, 2008 14:03:11 GMT -5
<snip> I'M A MASON. MASON = NOT SCUM. Santo, I don't think a half-joking reference to "newbs sticking together" needs several paragraphs' analysis to determine whether or not it's "scummy" or not.<snip> MASON = How the hell do I know your win condition is exactly the same as mine? But maybe you're right. Instead of being suspicious of everybody, I should just laugh at everything they say. That oughta help us root out some scum! First question: My win condition is the same as the six or seven others that were posted in this thread. I can't remember whether yours was one of them, but it does seem to confirm that a lot of the humans have the same one. Second point: At least start by recognizing when someone is JOKING. Or not pointing out a single part of a single sentence and saying it's "scummy". There's pagefuls of evidence here - so much, in fact, that it's almost intimidating to have to go through it. How a person's attitude has changed, how willing they've been to jump on bandwagons, how obsessive they've been about human-related ideas (to use an example of that one, Story is on my "probable human" list for exactly that reason), have they been willing to defend humans who've later ended up as confirmed, etc. That's the kind of evidence I'm looking for. It's not as easy as pointing out one sentence from a single post, taken out of context, because it sounds like it might be written by "scum"; but I'd wager it'll end up being a lot more reliable in the end.
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Post by Santo Rugger on Mar 20, 2008 14:09:07 GMT -5
First answer: HOW DO I KNOW YOU DON'T HAVE ADDITIONAL WIN CONDITIONS? I don't. Just because you're most likely town right now, doesn't mean that you get a free pass to say and do whatever you'd like without any scrutiny.
Rebuttle to second point: How is joking about forming a bond joking. I still don't think it's funny, even now that I know you didn't really mean it. Saying stuff you don't mean isn't going to help us in identifying all the scummy things you list.
Are you saying somebody defending town who end up being confirmed is a scum tell or a town tell? Why or why not?
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Post by Koldanar on Mar 20, 2008 14:09:48 GMT -5
I hate to ask this, but my brain has been odd today, and It just came to mind : Can the mods be bastards enough that there's only ONE faction, and we're just all going nuts, fighting amongst ourselves for naught?
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Post by Santo Rugger on Mar 20, 2008 14:10:18 GMT -5
I meant: How is joking about forming a bond funny?
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Post by storyteller0910 on Mar 20, 2008 14:10:56 GMT -5
Well, this is all getting increasingly confusing. I agree with zuma: we need to start getting serious in our voting and try to avoid a last-minute lynch if we can.
With apologies to NAF, I do believe it is time to summarize what we know (actually, we know nothing. I believe it is time to summarize what we suspect). Below is a list of people that I, based on what I have seen and read so far, am willing to provisionally accept as pro-Town for toDay. This amnesty, such as it is, expires at Dusk, to be renewed, if appropriate, toMorrow. So, for toDay, the people who I do not believe should receive votes are:
NAF: Almost certainly a Mason, very likely pro-Town. If the Masons in this game are actually playing both sides against the middle, evidence of this will surely surface in time.
molefan: Ditto.
Dark Smurf: As the first person to state the pro-Town win condition, he gets a pass from me toDay. It is not impossible that the scum win condition is identically phrased but in reverse, and that he took a calculated risk. It is not even beyond the realm of possibility that the Mods provided the scum with our win condition, as a guard against exactly this sort of thing. But we'll figure that out over time.
hockey monkey: Gets a pass for her mention of the phrase "definitely a Baddie."
Now, before we move on, I would like to make a request of NAF:
Will you post your complete list of players that you consider cleared on the basis of their statements so far, and briefly outline why? Please do not include anyone that you consider cleared for reasons apart from their actual contributions (ie, don't out the other Masons), but if you can add to the above list with folks about whom we can generally agree, it will help tremendously.
In the meanwhile, we also have (essentially) three name claims:
zuma (Joe Chill) drainbead (The Ventriloquist) Hoopy Frood (Dr. Freeze)
My next post will address those three.
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Post by Santo Rugger on Mar 20, 2008 14:11:07 GMT -5
I hate to ask this, but my brain has been odd today, and It just came to mind : Can the mods be bastards enough that there's only ONE faction, and we're just all going nuts, fighting amongst ourselves for naught? You're saying there's no Batman?
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Post by storyteller0910 on Mar 20, 2008 14:12:43 GMT -5
I hate to ask this, but my brain has been odd today, and It just came to mind : Can the mods be bastards enough that there's only ONE faction, and we're just all going nuts, fighting amongst ourselves for naught? Oh, man, that would be funny. Right up until Roosh and Diomedes were murdered by a snarling multicultural mob from across the globe, it would be funny.
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