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Post by severe delays on Oct 14, 2010 14:18:12 GMT -5
Don't not vote due to indecision. Make a decision and go with it! Even if it's not the right decision then it is helpful to town. We can look at who votes for whom and their reasons and ideally draw some information from it. Doing nothing doesn't help.
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Hockey Monkey!
Borogrove
This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker over who killed who.
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Post by Hockey Monkey! on Oct 14, 2010 14:18:55 GMT -5
He could be a scum Godfather. Or Zedd could be lying. Just because he was "investigated" and we were told he wasn't a threat to the town, doesn't mean we should blindly accept that he is.
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Post by Renata on Oct 14, 2010 14:27:23 GMT -5
(In a response to a question from Corinthian asking why Dexter didn't target Stay-Puft after giving him grief the whole of Day Two) What about the next day? Night three? Stay-Puft was still alive. He was either town and being redirected, SK and being redirected, SK and targeting Batman on his own, or scum and targeting Batman on his own (not laying odds here, just putting out the options, all of which are bad). You could have guaranteed that he would kill no one -- why did you choose otherwise? I can think of reasons, of course. None of them are definitive, of course, but there are reasons. But let's see what he says, shall we? I answered that on page 3. Are you not reading either? See below then: I don't know how I missed that. I thought I'd read everything for comprehension; apparently not. (As I had to explain recently in the other game I'm in, I had relatives visiting from this past weekend up until yesterday, was able to do nothing but skim during that time, and do not by a longshot feel like I have my feet under me yet.) I find your explanation plausible in the context of having had an actual misunderstanding of your role early on. It's pretty much what I thought you would say, but I wanted to see you say it.
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Post by Renata on Oct 14, 2010 14:30:02 GMT -5
That's two votes for Skellington. I'm surprised there are any at all. You know what I think of Zedd.
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Total Ullz
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Post by Total Ullz on Oct 14, 2010 14:38:27 GMT -5
I'm still not satisfied with the fallout from the party. Total Galadriel has claimed she is some sort of protector? But despite repeated requests won't give the details unless the masons agree. That's a sketchy-sounding role and hiding behind the masons giving their permission is an even sketchier-sounding tactic. There is no reason to believe that the masons have any useful information which will help them decide on whether Galadriel should be more open or not. If they have such a reason then I do wish they'd come out and say it - not what it is if that is harmful to town but at least to say whether there is a reason or not. Bolding is mine. That. Is. Simply. Not. Correct! My point for not claiming (unless asked by the Masons) is that I never claimed anything other then the ability to do something at Night. The Masons must agree with me that as long as my action is still unknown to Scum it's a nice big juicy bowl of Wine. Otherwise (and they have been here - all 3) I would assume one of them would have asked me to claim further. But they didn't. So why are you pushing this? It's not like I'm about to get lynched and should claim before the end of Day. And if I'm dead when we all wake up toMorrow then the case is closed and the problem solved, right?
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Post by septimus on Oct 14, 2010 14:40:47 GMT -5
He could be a scum Godfather. Or Zedd could be lying. Just because he was "investigated" and we were told he wasn't a threat to the town, doesn't mean we should blindly accept that he is. But but ... if Zedd is lying then Zedd is scum! That's all I was saying. Not that Skellington is Town; just that if he's not Town then neither is Zedd, so a vote on Zedd would seem more logical. (As to Godfather: he would investigate as Town but is it clear he would be "not a threat to Town"?) My indecision about voting isn't excessive concern that Dexter is innocent, but concern that there may be 1 or 2 even-more certain scums hiding in plain view. I keep thinking if only my drug dosages were adjusted I'd know who they are. But just to join in the happy Halloween spirit: Vote: Dexter Morgan
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Hockey Monkey!
Borogrove
This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker over who killed who.
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Post by Hockey Monkey! on Oct 14, 2010 14:56:10 GMT -5
I'm voting for Skellington because of his actions, not Zedd's. You seemed to be implying that no one should be voting for him because Zedd said he wasn't a threat. My reason for the vote was independent of Zedd and all I'm saying is that even though someone was investigated and deemed not a threat doesn't mean we should toss away our independent thought processes, because there could be forces at work that would negate the investigation. I wasn't saying that I thought Zedd was lying, but not voting for him. I was simply stating that he could be lying, not that I believe he is. He could be telling the truth and Skellington could still be scum if he's a Godfather.
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Post by Renata on Oct 14, 2010 15:28:48 GMT -5
Much as it pains me to admit it, (PAINS ME, I TELL YOU), that view is easier to fit into an overall strategy than is Zedd being A MURDERER and covering fellow-scummy-scum Skellington with a bogus redirection and investigation. The perennial problem of the godfather role, getting yourself investigated. It's also conceivable that Zedd never investigated Skellington at all and simply got it wrong (Skellington being actually a threat to town). I don't honestly know that I'd be voting Skellington without my suspicion of Zedd, though -- is that case really strong enough for you that it outweighs anything on any player who doesn't have that issue attached?
Galadriel, dear Galadriel: I don't understand why you would fail to claim your night two target at this point. I know you've argued it would reveal the type of role you have, but what harm is that to town?
You're a protector: Ok, so you might be targeted instead of Batman or a Mason, but that is not necessarily a bad outcome for the rest of us. Scum are not in a good position with a cop and three watchers running around -- if they divert resources to deal with you, they will unquestionably lose out somewhere else.
You're an investigator: Well, you can hardly be a very strong one or you'd have long since counter-counter-claimed Zedd. So what's the negative here if you say you targeted an investigation-type target as opposed to anything else?
And so on. If you are not mafia, then they already know you're a target type power; you're one of only a few potential causes for Batman's night two survival -- you're already a target. How does telling us who *you* targeted make it any worse?
On the other hand, your telling us might allow us to evaluate the plausibility of your redirection, which if I have all the actions straight, has never been explained or repeated -- never any other time has there been more than one redirection claimed on any given night. Given the plethora of targets who could have been affected by such a thing (and given Gir's precedent, though that shouldn't be a factor really), how can you think that's not an issue? I still like your ears, though.
I just realized Homicidal Maniac hasn't turned up in days again. *headrock*
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Total Ullz
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Post by Total Ullz on Oct 14, 2010 16:00:12 GMT -5
I'm more than willing to share - but the masons seem to agree I should not.
I know fishing isn't a scum tell by it's own - but what will Town gain from me claiming my target unless I also claim my action and thereby my motivations?
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Post by Red Skeezix on Oct 14, 2010 17:13:31 GMT -5
I'm more than willing to share - but the masons seem to agree I should not. The mason's do not agree or disagree with your choice to claim or not claim. How could we, we don't know what you are? How could we possibly gauge the repercussions of your claim? Just because we're town, doesn't mean were omniscient or always right. The decision to claim must be yours, i'm afraid, aka don't pin it on us.
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Post by Mahaloth on Oct 14, 2010 17:58:37 GMT -5
1. But but ... if Zedd is lying then Zedd is scum! That's all I was saying. 2. Not that Skellington is Town; just that if he's not Town then neither is Zedd, so a vote on Zedd would seem more logical. (As to Godfather: he would investigate as Town but is it clear he would be "not a threat to Town"?) :snipped: and the numbering is mine. 1. I agree. If I'm lying, I'm scum. Lynch me if I've lied. 2. Well, I can't say for sure how a godfather would investigate for me. I was not told anything either way. I hope a godfather would investigate as a threat to Town, but who knows? I can investigate, remember, what their powers are as well. I would think if I did that kind of investigation on a godfather, I should at least be able to see that too. For now, though, I have felt that "threatiness" is more important.
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Post by Renata on Oct 14, 2010 19:26:10 GMT -5
I'm more than willing to share - but the masons seem to agree I should not. I know fishing isn't a scum tell by it's own - but what will Town gain from me claiming my target unless I also claim my action and thereby my motivations? The plausibility of redirection, which must logically be targeted at you, your target, or both (remember my logic against Gir, I was quite proud of that, it was good, don't you think?) Implications for your target. Accountability in the event that there may be someone out there who can contradict some aspect of your claimed action, either now or if/when a full claim is made.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Oct 14, 2010 23:28:14 GMT -5
I'm more than willing to share - but the masons seem to agree I should not. I know fishing isn't a scum tell by it's own - but what will Town gain from me claiming my target unless I also claim my action and thereby my motivations? The plausibility of redirection, which must logically be targeted at you, your target, or both (remember my logic against Gir, I was quite proud of that, it was good, don't you think?) Implications for your target. Accountability in the event that there may be someone out there who can contradict some aspect of your claimed action, either now or if/when a full claim is made. Right, which was my point in this post: Well, the Masons aren't really confirmed though I acknowledge that some people may feel more comfortable playing as if they are, and I'm also interested in their opinions so let's see what they say. There are a few other people (who are not masons) who also expressed a desire to know who your target was. With so many things not happening as expected, I'd like to know who you targeted because it will hopefully help make more sense of the chaos. For example, there is a working theory that only killing roles were redirected to the Bat which may or may not make you more inclined to provide testimony than not. It is not my theory, and I wouldn't blame you if you still chose not to testify, I'm just pointing it out. And as the masons have apparently decided to let you hang out to dry with your decision on your own, though I recall you making a few references towards not wanting to claim if the mason's didn't want you to. It could be people just not reading or seeing various posts, it could just be an unfortunate coincidence. But it seems to me quite ironic and potentially convenient that Total has been withholding her claim because the Mason's had not explicitly asked her for it, meanwhile the Mason's either didn't care or haven't been paying attention to know that Total was interpreting their silence on the matter as an opinion that she should not share. Something smells fishy in the whole exchange to me.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Oct 14, 2010 23:29:54 GMT -5
NETA: if Total and the Masons are all town, that's a pretty damn unfortunate mis-communication.
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Post by Red Skeezix on Oct 15, 2010 6:39:10 GMT -5
And as the masons have apparently decided to let you hang out to dry with your decision on your own, though I recall you making a few references towards not wanting to claim if the mason's didn't want you to. It could be people just not reading or seeing various posts, it could just be an unfortunate coincidence. But it seems to me quite ironic and potentially convenient that Total has been withholding her claim because the Mason's had not explicitly asked her for it, meanwhile the Mason's either didn't care or haven't been paying attention to know that Total was interpreting their silence on the matter as an opinion that she should not share. Something smells fishy in the whole exchange to me. I guess that's one way to read it? If you want to go out of your way to smudge as many people as possible. There might be something fishy: the fact that total has been "asking permission" (i don't know how else to describe it) all day. If she's town then she obviously feels that now is not the right time for her to claim, and she's using the masons as a means to avoid the issue. If she's scum then she's using masons to avoid making a claim for obvious reasons. At this point I feel the person most likely to provide a counterclaim to her is silenced for the day. Since she's not investigative in nature (or I think she would have learned that she was redirected, from the mod instead of the masons).
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Total Ullz
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Post by Total Ullz on Oct 15, 2010 7:44:08 GMT -5
I'm more than willing to share - but the masons seem to agree I should not. The mason's do not agree or disagree with your choice to claim or not claim. How could we, we don't know what you are? How could we possibly gauge the repercussions of your claim? Just because we're town, doesn't mean were omniscient or always right. The decision to claim must be yours, i'm afraid, aka don't pin it on us. You know what? I really feel that is very unfair. If the masons hadn't been all over me about claiming to have been in the Batcave I could have remained in the pool of unknown and been a nice little distraction for Scum to wonder about. To say I'm pinning this on you isn't at all fair. Night 1 (with the massblock) I tried to target Eleanor/Sinjin Night 2 (when I somehow showed up at BatMc) I visited Zeed Since then I have not been active at Night.
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Post by Renata on Oct 15, 2010 9:03:02 GMT -5
Zedd, really? My very favorite whipping boy and potential MURDERER? How very interesting. Must get my thoughts in order. MOGORA, where's my coffee? Ah, there's a good woman. Now go away.
Attend to good Iskaral Pust now, if you will.
Option 1: Redirect of Galadriel herself to Batman. Evaluation: implausible from any angle, since nobody at this point has any way to know her role.
Option 2: Redirect of any/all actions from Zedd to Batman. Evaluation: implausible from a town perspective even given Zedd's cop claim -- you redirect to someone random and vaguely scummy in such a situation, not to the other claimed cop. Scum don't do it either, if Zedd is not, because what's the point? To the extent that Zedd's claim attracts attention, it's almost as likely to attract a protector as a PFK killer or whatever, and you don't risk sending a protector at the guy you need dead unless there's a very good reason.
So this doesn't look very good for Galadriel. You have to get into the territory of random redirects or really bizarre powers or some such for her to be likely to have wound up where she did without having chosen to be there herself.
Except -- if Zedd and the redirector are both scum, then it does make tactical sense. Consider the situation. Zedd's status as the counter-claimant had gotten him some townie cred, but at least three players (Corinthian, Rajesh and I that I remember) were questioning his claim to some extent. Of the two, Batman was clearly the more generally accepted as town by the end of the day -- of the two, he was the more likely to draw any protective powers that might be active. Of the two, Zedd was the more likely to draw investigative attention, including potentially from Batman himself. Either might draw a third party killer. And remember that Batman had not yet claimed role investigation; he'd left it at the assumption of alignment cop only. If, hypothetically, he had targeted Zedd and been redirected to himself, there was no reason at that point to believe he'd get anything else as a response than "your target is town".
So if Zedd is valued scum, might be a PFK target, might be investigated by the other claimed cop, and isn't all *that* likely to be protected compared to other options -- might be worth the risk, right?
Hood's breath, I know I have confirmation bias here worst than a T'lan Imass has moths, but it doesn't make sense, doesn't it?
So three options: 1. Zedd is scum and was the beneficiary of a scum-motivated redirect aimed at sending Batman's own investigation and potentially any opportunistic third party killers at Batman instead. 2. Galadriel is lying. 3. Something random (and REALLY coincidental) or beyond the scope of my imagination.
I'll add that I remember at least one (ok, tiny, but still) indicator that Galadriel is not mafia -- Drain Bead gave her a rough post or two following Galadriel's vote on Gir back on day two. It's not out of the question it could be bussing, but it would be rather on the more harsh and pointed end of the bussing range if that's what it was.
Regardless, somebody tell me where I'm losing my mind, if I am, because from where I stand, "either one or the other" is looking pretty good right now. I'm not losing my mind of course. Just convenient for them to think so, heehee.
unvote[/color] vote: Zedd[/color]
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Post by Mahaloth on Oct 15, 2010 9:44:45 GMT -5
Really what, Normalphase(Iskarai)?
I'm trying to understand your case to respond, but first tell me what you mean by "really, Zedd?"
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Post by Sister Coyote on Oct 15, 2010 10:06:46 GMT -5
<font style="font-size: 12px;">Really what, Normalphase(Iskarai)? I'm trying to understand your case to respond, but first tell me what you mean by "really, Zedd? SQUEEK! (I'm pretty sure that "Really, Zedd" was directed not at you but at Galadriel, trying to confirm that she had been redirected from you to BillMcBats.)
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Post by severe delays on Oct 15, 2010 10:10:42 GMT -5
I'm away this weekend. Back Monday!
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Post by peekercpa on Oct 15, 2010 10:29:19 GMT -5
i've got to agree with my brethren on this issue. i don't think it is the masons' place to tell anyone how to play their part or what information they choose to share or not share. and to suggest otherwise is spurious, imho.
matter of fact i seem to recall that someone (i think total, btw) gritched about a game they played in where the masons got all high and mighty and were acting like they were running the joint. we have been sharing the information that we receive. but i don't think that we have ever even come close to suggesting that we know what is best and that if our opinions were not universally shared that implied some sort of non town motivation. certainly we also make conclusions about said information but to suggest we are infallible in our conclusions or suggestions is ludicrous. and to be totally honest, dangerous as well.
matter of fact we have had some "spirited" discussions about the individual conclusions that we have reached.
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Total Ullz
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Post by Total Ullz on Oct 15, 2010 12:26:23 GMT -5
i've got to agree with my brethren on this issue. i don't think it is the masons' place to tell anyone how to play their part or what information they choose to share or not share. and to suggest otherwise is spurious, imho. matter of fact i seem to recall that someone (i think total, btw) gritched about a game they played in where the masons got all high and mighty and were acting like they were running the joint. we have been sharing the information that we receive. but i don't think that we have ever even come close to suggesting that we know what is best and that if our opinions were not universally shared that implied some sort of non town motivation. certainly we also make conclusions about said information but to suggest we are infallible in our conclusions or suggestions is ludicrous. and to be totally honest, dangerous as well. matter of fact we have had some "spirited" discussions about the individual conclusions that we have reached. I'm not saying you're playing perfect. But I think it's unfair to say this late in the Day that I have to decide on my own what to share and what not-to. Since all of this started with you insisting that I shared the information you "needed" in Day 2. @ Iskaral: I think you're jumping to conclusions here. If you go back and re-read my view on Zeed it has been that I don't believe him to be Scum based on the timing of his claim. I even remember BatMc agreeing with me very clearly in that point of view. The only explanation I see right now (and there could be others) is that some sort of manipulation of results is going on... Might be a mechanism in the game (not very likely) or the result of a power action.
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Post by Renata on Oct 15, 2010 12:53:43 GMT -5
So you're going for option 3? You must have had a good long time to think about it, and come up with something that makes sense, then. Care to share?
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Post by peekercpa on Oct 15, 2010 12:54:28 GMT -5
i think you are mischaracterizing that request total. we merely wanted to know if people at been at the bat party or not. i think the only one we really pressured was puffy.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Oct 15, 2010 14:36:51 GMT -5
I'll add that I remember at least one (ok, tiny, but still) indicator that Galadriel is not mafia -- Drain Bead gave her a rough post or two following Galadriel's vote on Gir back on day two. It's not out of the question it could be bussing, but it would be rather on the more harsh and pointed end of the bussing range if that's what it was. Can you elaborate on this part? I don't follow you.
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Merestil Haye
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Post by Merestil Haye on Oct 15, 2010 14:46:22 GMT -5
How's about a vote count? Nine votes Two votes One vote In the event of a tie, the Mods will randomly choose between no lynch and lynching everyone in a tie for the lynch lead.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Oct 15, 2010 14:49:33 GMT -5
And as the masons have apparently decided to let you hang out to dry with your decision on your own, though I recall you making a few references towards not wanting to claim if the mason's didn't want you to. It could be people just not reading or seeing various posts, it could just be an unfortunate coincidence. But it seems to me quite ironic and potentially convenient that Total has been withholding her claim because the Mason's had not explicitly asked her for it, meanwhile the Mason's either didn't care or haven't been paying attention to know that Total was interpreting their silence on the matter as an opinion that she should not share. Something smells fishy in the whole exchange to me. I guess that's one way to read it? If you want to go out of your way to smudge as many people as possible. There might be something fishy: the fact that total has been "asking permission" (i don't know how else to describe it) all day. If she's town then she obviously feels that now is not the right time for her to claim, and she's using the masons as a means to avoid the issue. If she's scum then she's using masons to avoid making a claim for obvious reasons. At this point I feel the person most likely to provide a counterclaim to her is silenced for the day. Since she's not investigative in nature (or I think she would have learned that she was redirected, from the mod instead of the masons). Yes, I continue to be frustrated with the Mason's play, but I don't have any evidence to go after any of you so you're stuck with me pointing out all of the ways that I don't like your play. Yes, Total has been asking for the Mason's permission all Day, and none of you chose to make any comments to that effect until quite recently. That is not very consistent with the micro-managing that the three of you had been doing previously. Perhaps more consistent pressure would have been applied to a scummy Total if you had responded to her requests with something more than silence. Perhaps a Townie Total would have decided to make her own decisions a bit earlier. Regardless of anyone's alignment, I'm not seeing the Town benefit much from the whole exchange, which was part of the reason I posted it. At this point I'm inclined to vote for Total, as I think it is time for a full claim from her and so for it is still not forthcoming.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Oct 15, 2010 14:58:40 GMT -5
I was going to wait longer, but fuck it:
Vote: TotalG
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Total Ullz
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Post by Total Ullz on Oct 15, 2010 15:14:10 GMT -5
I'm okay with claiming at this point.
However - I still feel the timing is off.
I was hoping I could go in to the Night with this huge "might be a protector"-sign on my back and that it would serve as a WiFoM for Scum or PFK's.
However I'm off to bed and as posted earlier today I'm might not be online for a couple of days starting next week.
So here's the deal: I can hide people. Or more accurate I can hide them while they preform their actions. I can target someone and if a tracker/watcher (these are my words and not the Mods) is looking at that player, then I can "conceal" them.
The power is not very useful - but when the Masons claimed they could track I stopped using it. Because I didn't want to mess anything up for them.
So there you have it. When reading my role I thought the best play was to hide Town Powers that was likely to be watched by then Scum.
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Post by Renata on Oct 15, 2010 15:16:03 GMT -5
I'll add that I remember at least one (ok, tiny, but still) indicator that Galadriel is not mafia -- Drain Bead gave her a rough post or two following Galadriel's vote on Gir back on day two. It's not out of the question it could be bussing, but it would be rather on the more harsh and pointed end of the bussing range if that's what it was. Can you elaborate on this part? I don't follow you. Would be easiest for me just to find the post probably. Although I am lazy, this I will do for you, monkish person.
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