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Post by Paulwhoisaghost on Oct 12, 2010 18:30:16 GMT -5
Gir! was a serial killer yet we don't appear to be up to our eyes in bodies. So clearly there was a roleblocker around who was not Lt Columbo. Depending on who is lying there may be a scum roleblocker around in addition to this other roleblocker. SQUEEK! (Night One, we were EMPed and no one had an action. Night Two, we had no deaths and Gir was -- apparently -- redirected to Bats, who was apparently protected in some fashion. Night Three, we had two deaths, one of whom -- Columbo -- we don't know the source of. Night Four, we had one death. All things considered, the number of bodies seems proportional to the events of the Nights as we know them, and doesn't imply another roleblocker so much as the redirector.) **Underlining Mine** Chitter.... Little Indian Girl: I don't follow your math for Night 3. We had 2 deaths. One was Columbo (unknown cause)... the second was claimed by Raj... So if Gir was an SK... and the scum have a NK... then we are still one body short of the numbers adding up.
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Post by Sister Coyote on Oct 12, 2010 18:45:07 GMT -5
Little Indian Girl: I don't follow your math for Night 3. We had 2 deaths. One was Columbo (unknown cause)... the second was claimed by Raj... So if Gir was an SK... and the scum have a NK... then we are still one body short of the numbers adding up. SQUEEK (Forgive me. I tend to assume one fewer death than assumed total number of killing roles is still in the range of probability given the likelihood of redirections, two hits on the same person, and other possible confluences of power interactions that could result in a numeric mismatch.)
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Post by Sister Coyote on Oct 13, 2010 10:04:11 GMT -5
SQUEEK? (Where is everybody?)
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Post by peekercpa on Oct 13, 2010 10:48:16 GMT -5
SQUEEK? (Where is everybody?) i'm here. but the fracking connection to this site has gotten wonky.
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Natlaw
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Post by Natlaw on Oct 13, 2010 13:00:57 GMT -5
We have one known redirect: N2 Puft from Dexter to Batman We have two other claimed redirects N2: Galadriel from ? to Batman, Gir! from Corinthian to Batman. We have (probably) not redirected powers N2: Columbo wasn't redirected to Batman nor was Dexter.
We have Zedd claim being redirected from Corinthian to Skellington N3. We have Dexter claim being redirected from Storyteller to Batman N4.
Gir! claimed the redirect N2 was random. In what? Not the target as that would be big co-incindence. Random in which powers were redirected? I don't buy it. A chance to redirect all powers in use a specific target? Possible but how would Gir now that and the number of PFK? Since some no-killing powers weren't redirected the kills-only redirect seems still the most plausible. I can see it in that case a scum or third party as both want investigators dead.
If Dexter as jailer is scum than I suspect the Interrogator of Rorschach would be town. But why interrogate him now? I does suggest some sort of investigation (but besides Bat and Zedd?) and it does silence him Today.
Unvote Dexter If I believe him that he just used his power poorly than the interrogators action seems more scummy and I don't see scum have both power. It also then seems likely scum have a tracker or watcher who found out him targetting someone jailed (most likely N3).
I'm thinking of voting Galadriel as possible redirected killer. In my opinion she should claim Today because those from the bat cave tend to get silenced so speak while you can. Same for Rorschach Tomorrow.
Summary: I expect one of Galadriel/Rorschach to have protected Batman N2. If it's not Galadriel then I'm leaning to beleive Dexter as Town Jailer and the interrogater scummy.
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Post by Sister Coyote on Oct 13, 2010 13:06:08 GMT -5
Summary: I expect one of Galadriel/Rorschach to have protected Batman N2. If it's not Galadriel then I'm leaning to beleive Dexter as Town Jailer and the interrogater scummy. SQUEEK! (Generally speaking I agree with your logic, however, there is a third possibility for why Bats survived the party on Night Two: Maniac claimed his device guaranteed success. And one cannot succeed in an action if one is dead. Therefore, Maniac could have served as a one-shot protector. I don't know how likely that is, but it's not out of the realm of probability.)
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Natlaw
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Post by Natlaw on Oct 13, 2010 13:45:20 GMT -5
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Post by Renata on Oct 13, 2010 13:54:30 GMT -5
(I brought up that possibility on day three and never really got a response from anybody except Raj saying it only made sense if Maniac is telling the truth in the first place. Maniac himself never responded, IIRC.)
The summary of known and claimed night actions, as presented by Iskaral Pust, Magi of Shadow. Imagine the mule as Vanna White.
Night One: Dead bodies: none. Marcel sets off an EMP. Otherwise nada. Essentially confirmed.
Night Two: Dead bodies: none. Masons claim investigation of Batman's party. Largely confirmed. Batman claims investigation of Drain Bead, scum corrupter. (Visit confirmed by masons, right?) Stay-Puft, vig, claims redirection from Dexter to Batman, confirmed. Kill is not successful. Eleanor, doc, is jailed, no action. Dexter, jailer, jails Eleanor. Confirmed. He claims she was also protected by his action. Lt. Columbo, roleblocker, blocks Death of Rats. Essentially confirmed (can't remember if he specified whether he could tell if his action reached the intended target). Rajesh, claimed vig, no action. Neither confirmed nor contradicted. Zedd claims investigation of Batman, not a threat. Neither confirmed nor contradicted. Homicidal Maniac, claimed inventor, says he forced success of Batman's action, seen by Masons. Neither confirmed nor contradicted. Rorshach claims to have visited Batman, was seen by masons. No further information. Gir, SK, claims redirection from Corinthian to Batman, could be full of bhok'aral poopy on that. Seen by Masons. Galadriel, claims redirection from ? to Batman, seen by Masons.
"Missing" -- the roleblocker whom Batman claimed to be in action the next night. Also perhaps missing: a kill attempt. Could be roleblock on DoR, could be a Batman visitor, could be someone uninformed of Dexter's jailing action (or uninformed of how it works) attacking Eleanor. Could be something unknown.
Night Three: Dead bodies: two, Lt. Columbo and Stay-Puft. Masons attend Stay-Puft's party this time. Mostly confirmed. Lt. Columbo, roleblocker, blocks Stay-Puft. Confirmed by masons. Stay-Puft, vig, is roleblocked. Rajesh, claimed vig, kills Stay-Puft. Confirmed by masons. Batman, cop, investigates Galadriel (?), is roleblocked. Confirmed if Batman is town, and it takes some creative thinking (so to speak) to make him anything else. Zedd investigates the Corinthian, is redirected to Jack Skellington. Neither confirmed nor contradicted. Eleanor, doc, protects ? (Can't remember.) Dexter, jailer, jails Galadriel. Galadriel's in jail, no action. Gir and/or scum kill Lt. Columbo. Homicidal Maniac does ?
All known abilities are accounted for here, save one kill attempt. Could be an attempt on Galadriel, a double hit, or a protection by one of the Batman crew.
Night Four: Dead bodies, one (Eleanor). Masons think Batman has the best bean dip. Essentially confirmed. Eleanor protects Batman, essentially confirmed. Rajesh, claimed vig, says he did nothing. Neither confirmed nor contradicted. Dexter, jailer, jails Batman, seen by Masons. Claims redirection from Homicidal Maniac. Jailing confirmed, redirection neither confirmed nor contradicted. Homicidal Maniac: ? Galadriel: ? Zedd investigates Elizabeth Bathory, not a threat. Neither confirmed nor contradicted.
There is no known or claimed roleblock from this night.
The most obvious outstanding question is Galadriel and her claimed redirection on night two.
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Total Ullz
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Post by Total Ullz on Oct 13, 2010 13:55:02 GMT -5
As I have said - I will claim if the Masons ask me.
At this point I still think we're playing WiFoM with scum if I don't claim. And I like playing that game. But not to the extent where it becomes a distraction to Town.
But I'll leave it up to the Masons to decide when it's time.
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Natlaw
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Post by Natlaw on Oct 13, 2010 14:30:04 GMT -5
"Missing" -- the roleblocker whom Batman claimed to be in action the next night. Also perhaps missing: a kill attempt. Could be roleblock on DoR, could be a Batman visitor, could be someone uninformed of Dexter's jailing action (or uninformed of how it works) attacking Eleanor. Could be something unknown. The role block of both Batman and the missing kill could be the jail of Galadriel - in fact I see no reason to doubt that it blocked Batman's investigation. If it did block a kill it's a point in favor for Galadriel (as I think the kill of Columbo is more likely the scum one). But it could also have been stopped by Eleanors protection (or herself or Batman most likely).
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Post by Renata on Oct 13, 2010 14:35:33 GMT -5
Oh right. Bat-breath didn't say he was roleblocked, did he? Just that he got no result. I think I even speculated on that being a side effect of the jailing at the time.
Why do you think scum were more likely to kill Columbo?
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Natlaw
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Post by Natlaw on Oct 13, 2010 14:48:39 GMT -5
I think it's more likely that a PFK would target the investigators, leaving the Columbo kill for scum (assuming only one PFK serial killer).
That said Gir! claimed to have targeted Eleanor Night Three (meaning Eleanor self protected or Gir! was lying).
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Oct 13, 2010 14:54:53 GMT -5
I don't get all this Ed/Marcel-noise. I believe this is my first game with them both and I can't figure out what's going on. ) Don't bother. It's just common back and forth bickering and complaining between Marcel(meeko) and.....well, anyone. Do not encourage the Marcel(meeko)! You do not know what may come. Hey, read his analysis post-game of Lord of the Rings if you want to. ::: Sighs silently ::: OOG I think it comes down to a simple matter that Ed and I are polar opposites.... on something. It is obvious that I am hard to understand. I get it, and at the same time, it gets to me. It is also obvious that some of you guys try*. Ed seems oblivious. And he could care less about it, thumb nosing all the way. That's about the best way I can put it. Again, there is only one person who I feel really, really understands me. Sorry Peeker, it ain't you, bud. If only I could play in a game with BigT over on the Dope. He is scary good at understanding me. Perhaps because we are a lot alike. *That being said, understand that I don't want to make any game of Mafia any more confusing than my role or in game circumstance needs to make it. T hat is, this is not an act. Certainly I would have turned it off by now. But I sense a half dozen or so "any minute now" minutes in which I swear I will get this game. - That's really my point. Mafia gives players un-equal footing. It would be tolerable, if we all started at the same baseline. -But no, some people are not as invested in the game, long before they get their role. Wanting players to do one thing in particular is frustrating. Finding out that they don't even feel compelled to act at all is beyond words. I would bet that our frustration is mutual. I would bet that any real progress in debating the issue would come only after we scale it [and rightfully so] to the order and magnitude of Politics and Religion. I think the schism here is that great. In short, it is a Ed / Meeko thing. We only get our names attached to it, because we are the most prominent voices to both sides. Maha, I kinda thought that we didn't have the same problem. If you really are advancing that everyone is at an arm's distance from me, then you as much have basically said I have no hope for advancing or getting meaningful experience in any game you set up. I really, REALLY didn't expect that from you. FWIW : If Ed is not going to engage in the game, or any piece in the game, he has stopped playing it. /OOG Unvote Ed. Embiggened just cause I am a bit rambly here. I am going to choose my words carefully here. I really don't have much of anything to add in regards to night actions that truly interact with other people. [Denying something is not really an interaction. It's a fast moving one way current of power, no give and take that is interaction] Rightfully so, there seems to be a Party at the Batcave every night. But, the iota of energy I would have to wok on what it could mean, is kinda raped by the fact that I didn't get an invite, and I know beyond a doubt that it didn't get lost in the mail. How can I add anything to anything? But I did say that I Would Unvote Ed, and well technically, we are there. Just not sure what else I can do.
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Oct 13, 2010 15:00:35 GMT -5
That said Gir! claimed to have targeted Eleanor Night Three (meaning Eleanor self protected or Gir! was lying). ::: Snip scissors motion :::: ::: Pours some Wine, and points to the glass ::: Now that is the poser, isn't ? I mean Would a PFK lie about targeting? What relevance does that question and it's answer have if the good doctor protected? My brain melted here; Is there something to be gleaned from the act of Wine simply being present, before getting lost in the logic bomb? Why serve the wine to begin with?
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Post by Renata on Oct 13, 2010 15:00:53 GMT -5
I think the opposite, little slice of bread! PFK has everything to lose if caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. Scummy scum have more heads, more options, more ability to take chances. I think the scum go after Batman, if anyone does. But maybe nobody did. Left entirely alone, if "roleblock" was really the jailing? Too scared of the scary masons, heehee!
Now there's last night. The MURDERERS leave Batman alone twice? Suicidal. Crazy. But send jailer only? Risk exposure of jailer and not even guarantee a death? Don't know, don't know.
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Total Ullz
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Post by Total Ullz on Oct 13, 2010 15:01:35 GMT -5
If only I could play in a game with BigT over on the Dope. He is scary good at understanding me. Perhaps because we are a lot alike. *That being said, understand that I don't want to make any game of Mafia any more confusing than my role or in game circumstance needs to make it. This is not a joke and it's totally OoG: Have you ever played on facebook? www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=24652112609&v=app_2373072738&ref=ts#!/group.php?gid=24652112609 Most players around here don't like it. But I think you might - and I have a feeling they'd like you over there. Just think about it...
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Post by Red Skeezix on Oct 13, 2010 17:10:46 GMT -5
Summary: I expect one of Galadriel/Rorschach to have protected Batman N2. If it's not Galadriel then I'm leaning to beleive Dexter as Town Jailer and the interrogater scummy. SQUEEK! (Generally speaking I agree with your logic, however, there is a third possibility for why Bats survived the party on Night Two: Maniac claimed his device guaranteed success. And one cannot succeed in an action if one is dead. Therefore, Maniac could have served as a one-shot protector. I don't know how likely that is, but it's not out of the realm of probability.) Bolding added. I disagree with bolded part.
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Post by Mahaloth on Oct 13, 2010 17:49:54 GMT -5
Sorry, Marcel(meeko). I certainly don't want you to avoid any game, whether I have planned it, played in it, or am just watching.
I think I'm just trying to get us moving away from back and forth banter about minor points. I know you had a hard time with Rings(no idea why really), but let's just move on from it.
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Post by Sister Coyote on Oct 13, 2010 18:11:26 GMT -5
I disagree with bolded part. SQUEEK (You know, given my current state, I debated about saying one could or could not act when dead. And it makes a difference in what order the Mods -- oh, hell, what's the word -- resolve Night actions, too. So consider that portion of my comment to "it is unlikely that one can succeed in an action if one has been Killed in-game.")
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Oct 13, 2010 21:03:53 GMT -5
Sorry, Marcel(meeko). I certainly don't want you to avoid any game, whether I have planned it, played in it, or am just watching. I think I'm just trying to get us moving away from back and forth banter about minor points. I know you had a hard time with Rings(no idea why really), but let's just move on from it. :: Looks to Maha :: :: Pours some Vodka for both :: I think we are on the same page here. That is, I can let go of other things easier. It's just, I don't get Ed. Just wanted to clarify that its an Ed issue, not an other players issue. Just felt obligated to speak up on that. Not sure how often I hit this nail : In the general sense, I make a set of assumptions on any Mafia game I enter. I make plans on those assumptions, and none other. To find that contract broken, and not first hand from the mod is unnerving, akin to scrapping the entire project halfway into it. Related, assuming things : I think I came real close to something else. Mafia, it would seem, does assume equal participation from all players. Not something you can calculate, but I think it does throw a few games. - :: Looks to Total :: I hope this is mundane, and not a "And don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya".
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Post by special on Oct 13, 2010 21:23:25 GMT -5
Marcel, would it be better if I apologized?
I'm sorry that I used the word 'odd' to refer to anyone other than you.
I'm sorry that when I used the word 'odd' that I didn't vote for you and select no one else at any point in time.
I apologize for 'incremental steps in making a case for their vote' even though I don't know what that means.
I apologize for the heavy handed use of the word 'odd'
I apologize for appearing resolute in leveling the accusation of oddness upon anyone but you.
There, now, like I've stated earlier, I'm still not ignoring you, and I've even responded to your comments in regard to my comments to Dexter.
I will make every effort not to use the word odd, and if I do, I will certainly think about voting for you incrementally or otherwise.
Can we put this issue to rest now?
Can we actually get back to playing the game?
Can we discuss why it is impossible and/or unfair to play the game after those of us who are actually playing the game are done playing the game?
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Total Ullz
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Post by Total Ullz on Oct 14, 2010 5:00:45 GMT -5
:: Looks to Total :: I hope this is mundane, and not a "And don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya". No, no - I play there from time to time. Last game was modded by Red S. I just think you might fit in with the group over there - that's all. I play different boards at the same time. So does a lot of others here.
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Natlaw
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Post by Natlaw on Oct 14, 2010 5:20:10 GMT -5
So consider that portion of my comment to "it is unlikely that one can succeed in an action if one has been Killed in-game.") But typically in a mafia game your action goes through if you are killed the same Night. Some moderators even give the result of an investigator in that case ("Incredible! You found X is scum. Unfortunately you got killed and you cannot tell anyone."). I think we are on the same page here. That is, I can let go of other things easier. It's just, I don't get Ed. Did you get the part where I explained how you failed the understand the sarcasm when ed used the word 'odd'? And that it had nothing to do with how you perceive yourself as 'odd'? And that Ed hasn't been ignoring you or has 'left the game'? And that just because you used your one shot power it doesn't mean you are useless? And that you not having an targetable action to be at the bat cave doesn't 'rape' anything or that it means that people are shunning you? Seriously how can you draw that conclusion? Don't start with that other peoples powers are potatoes you should have been told about. Mafia is not a fair game in that everyone is equal. Chess is not a fair game because white gets to move first. Just get a vote in for someone you think is scummy (and not for someone you don't 'get'). If this comment is a bit rude it's because I don't want to not post it and have you complain you're being ignored. I don't hate playing with you but I would really like you to focus more one the game itself.
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Post by peekercpa on Oct 14, 2010 10:32:22 GMT -5
unca peek approaches the soapbox.
i really don't get you marcel/meeko. it seems that unless you have perfect knowledge then the game has gone sideways potatoes (got it this time ed). why can you not just enjoy the past time? when i was a mafia newb all i wanted was to be scum or some type of power role. now that i have become old and decrepit i welcome the niller type roles. fuck, then you just let it fly. no second guessing by team mates or other players. you just kind of get to play with no agenda and a fuck off attitude. that's
kind of zen to me.
universal harmony. peace. inherant personal stability. groundedness in all that is good and loving in the world. the circle of life. what we are now is only a shadow of what we can ultimately become if we are only open to the knowledge that the universe gives us.
and just in case in anyone gives a shit. dirx just got through kicking ed's ass again on giraffe.
fuck the circle of life let's get on with it.
unca peek steps off the soapbox.
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Post by Renata on Oct 14, 2010 13:00:01 GMT -5
(In a response to a question from Corinthian asking why Dexter didn't target Stay-Puft after giving him grief the whole of Day Two) Also, I didn't know that I jailed people for the day also until we woke up to Eleanor in jail. Again, had I know this aspect of my power I would have played it much differently and probably would have jailed Puffy instead of tried to protect Eleanor. Dammit, I hate that this was so messed up! What about the next day? Night three? Stay-Puft was still alive. He was either town and being redirected, SK and being redirected, SK and targeting Batman on his own, or scum and targeting Batman on his own (not laying odds here, just putting out the options, all of which are bad). You could have guaranteed that he would kill no one -- why did you choose otherwise? I can think of reasons, of course. None of them are definitive, of course, but there are reasons. But let's see what he says, shall we?
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Post by Renata on Oct 14, 2010 13:05:17 GMT -5
You know, meeko, I'd like some incontrovertible proof of the redirector and Dexter's lynch would aid in that. Frankly, I think the most protown thing to do with a jailing ability is to not use it at all. So, I think Dexter is either scum or playing very poorly, and I don't think Dexter would play poorly. Incontrovertible proof other than Stay-Puft's death as a town player, that is? Silly, pro-forma reason for advocating someone's death, Skellington. Should we put you to death in order to see if Zedd is telling the truth that you are no threat to town? We could read your bones, heehee. Did you comment on Dexter's statement that he has no choice but to use his power?
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Post by Renata on Oct 14, 2010 13:16:16 GMT -5
I can't believe a compulsive jailing power that removes a player from the game entirely for a night and a day would be protown at all. The only town use I see for it is if we know we have two scum and we lynch one and jail the other. Of course, even then we still couldn't lynch them until they'd had a free night so really I don't see how this is supposed to help town at all. NETA: you did -- you don't think it's a plausible town power. I don't have that issue with it -- town powers with downsides are not unheard of. So your reasons for wanting Dexter lynched boiled down to: -- It might prove there's a redirector in the game (but only if Dexter is town, which is a mislynch; and it's not needed anyway) -- he shouldn't be using this power at all if he is town (arguable -- I'd almost certainly use it myself because I'm just perverse that way, heehee) -- given he says it's compulsive, that is not believeable as a town power (I disagree it's that cut-and-dried). Really it's the first point that I object most strongly to, but it is rather a strong objection. vote: Skellington[/color]
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Hockey Monkey!
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Post by Hockey Monkey! on Oct 14, 2010 13:16:44 GMT -5
(In a response to a question from Corinthian asking why Dexter didn't target Stay-Puft after giving him grief the whole of Day Two) Also, I didn't know that I jailed people for the day also until we woke up to Eleanor in jail. Again, had I know this aspect of my power I would have played it much differently and probably would have jailed Puffy instead of tried to protect Eleanor. Dammit, I hate that this was so messed up! What about the next day? Night three? Stay-Puft was still alive. He was either town and being redirected, SK and being redirected, SK and targeting Batman on his own, or scum and targeting Batman on his own (not laying odds here, just putting out the options, all of which are bad). You could have guaranteed that he would kill no one -- why did you choose otherwise? I can think of reasons, of course. None of them are definitive, of course, but there are reasons. But let's see what he says, shall we? I answered that on page 3. Are you not reading either? See below then: What I'm trying to say is this: You jailed total on a night (night 3) when according to your own stated suspicions it would have made more sense to jail puft? By night three, I thought it was pretty much a given that Raj would try to take him out. By jailing Puffy on night 3, I would have blocked him, but I also would have protected him from Raj and prevented him from being lynched the next day. That would have been bad. He needed to die and I would have impeded that. On night one or two, it would have been a better idea and I might would have done it then. Might being the operative word here. Getting my full role information before we started certainly would have changed things, but I haven't given a whole lot of thought to what I coulda, shoulda, woulda because there isn't any point in wasting the brain power. I can't change the past.
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Post by severe delays on Oct 14, 2010 14:07:09 GMT -5
I'm still not satisfied with the fallout from the party. Total Galadriel has claimed she is some sort of protector? But despite repeated requests won't give the details unless the masons agree. That's a sketchy-sounding role and hiding behind the masons giving their permission is an even sketchier-sounding tactic. There is no reason to believe that the masons have any useful information which will help them decide on whether Galadriel should be more open or not. If they have such a reason then I do wish they'd come out and say it - not what it is if that is harmful to town but at least to say whether there is a reason or not.
There seems to have been a redirect of killing roles to the Batcave. The only two we were doubtful of were Gir! and Galadriel. Gir! proved to be dangerous albeit not scum. If she continues to refuse to explain who she was targeting or how her role works then I can't see why Galadriel would not be either scum or a PFK.
vote Total Galadriel
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Post by septimus on Oct 14, 2010 14:08:26 GMT -5
That's two votes for Skellington. I'm surprised there are any at all. I'm not saying Skellington's innocent ;D but if he's scum, then so is Zedd who informs us, in #8 of Day 4 : Therefore, unless the Mods are lying to him, Zedd is at least as likely to be scum as Skellington. In my opinion, the more suspicious you are of Skellington, the more you should be inclined to lynch Zedd. I'll admit I'm suspicious of (or confused by ) Dexter, Zedd, and several others of you. (If I don't vote at all toDay, it's not due to apathy, but indecision. Frankly I think politics might work better if stupid ignorant people like me weren't even allowed to vote! )
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