Merestil Haye
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[on:Slumming it in the Middle-Earth][of:In the halls of Manw
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Post by Merestil Haye on Dec 4, 2010 7:40:38 GMT -5
Seems like we can all agree that information is important. So how to get it? 1. Lynch 2. Claim (and risk giving away more information than we need) 3. Trust a power role to provide it Today we seem to agree we're not going to claim. Also it would be no good to have a power role claim to provide us with a snip of information from one single Night. So who do we lynch? I'm soooo in the peeker-camp and ready to take out a lurker. Not a non-participant, but a lurker. Not a low-posting player but a lurker. Someone here, posting, making no-contribution to the game, keeping the talk running but not really committing to this game. Why should we leave the lurkers alone for several days while we run the risk of mis-lynch vocal-townies make a single little mistake like using the word "debacle"? Because by lynching a lurker, you fail to achieve your stated aim with this lynch. I agree with your elimination of options 2 and 3 that you propose, leaving only the lynch. But, experience shows that if you lynch smeone who has expressed no opinions on Day 1, you get little or no information compared to lynching a more vocal player. My usual reference point for this is Pedescribe's Werewolf: The Split game (on the Dope). The Day 1 lynch was of someone who did not post in the first three days of Day 1. For the rest of the game, we struggled with the lack of information that provided. (The fact that other sources of information - mainly the Machine, which turned out to be an alignment cop - enabled the Town to claw back and win, doesn't invalidate the point. You can't be sure Bufftabby has provided such an info source in this game.) I actually agree that nonparticipation is anti-game in the long run. I also agree with this.However, the game can absorb this problem in the first couple of Days because the players who are participating will generate sufficient posts for the game to be played. I think waiting until the transition to midgame starts is sensible; by then (say the start of Day 3) you start to get a sense of who didn't say much because they got hit by meatspace issues and who didn't say much because they don't want to say much.
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Post by brewha on Dec 4, 2010 7:54:49 GMT -5
If that's the case, why not get on the Pleo bandwagon? That's one that seems to be going somewhere. ARGH. I hate this line of reasoning with a passion. Just because a bandwagon is going, doesn't mean that one should follow it. Town should always, always vote for who they think is Scummiest even if there's no hope in Hell of that person being lynched, because the case needs to be on record. Even on Day One. Even with limited information for that case. Hell, I wasn't even Town in the last game and I voted someone who wasn't going to get lynched because I thought she was Scummiest -- and I was absolutely right. ARGH. I hate deceptively snipped quotes with a passion. You snipped out the part where asked if she thought pleo and rysto were in cahoots. If she thought they were BOTH scum it make more sense to vote for the one with the vote lead.
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Post by brewha on Dec 4, 2010 8:11:26 GMT -5
I've still gotta read Paranioa's post. but don't have time right now. I'm glad pleo posted his explanation, but I don't really like the reasoning. Basically I read it as jumping up and down waving your arms and screaming "look at me look at me!" But, I gotta agree with Rysto that it's a null tell as far as scummyness.
I'll check back before dusk, but I"m going to
Vote Sister Coyote
both for the deceptive snip of my quote and for her reasoning that you shouldn't vote for who you think is scummy if there's already votes for them.
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Post by brewha on Dec 4, 2010 9:43:09 GMT -5
I was rushed into finishing that last post. lemme elaborate. First, Coyote snipped my quote to make it look like I was just encouraging bandwagon voting. And in doing so, appears to be defending Pleo and encouraging a Rysto vote instead. Then, it appears that later she realized how that looked and backtracked by saying that maybe we should just spread votes around and not vote on the bandwagon even if that's a vote for the person you think is most scummy. All of this, plus I just hate the argument that one should follow a bandwagon regardless of whether or not you think both people are Scummy. For one thing, perhaps especially if both people are Scummy, not voting for the lynch leader and making a case allows a starting point for the following Day. If your primary lynch candidate is already the vote leader, why not make a case on someone else you think is acting Scummy? What harm do a few outlying votes, with support, do to Town? No matter how strong your case, it is unlikely (improbable but not impossible) that one person's vote is going to sway away from the lynch leader -- usually that takes a claim, and even that's not a guarantee. What harm? If votes are spread over several people, it's much easier for scum to sway who ends up swinging at the end of the day. If you think two people are scummy and one of them already has votes, I think the right play is to vote there and worry about the other person the following day. And, I'm going to follow my own advice. Sister Coyote's scumminess is based on my belief that she is trying to deflect votes from Pleo. So, unvote Sister CoyoteVote Pleonast
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Merestil Haye
FGM
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[on:Slumming it in the Middle-Earth][of:In the halls of Manw
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Post by Merestil Haye on Dec 4, 2010 9:43:43 GMT -5
No, I was just being slow in typing and not refreshing to make sure nobody else had talked. It's a response to Rysto who seems to be telling mahaloth to just ignore it because it's Pleo, an attitude I find less than helpful. I'm not going to vote Pleo just for his claim. We know that Pleo will claim power status (ie "power role" or "vanilla") if he is Town, because he has made such claims as Town. We can also see that, if he is non-Town there are advantages to making such a claim. Also, since he has now done this in several games in sequence, suddenly stopping might bring him scrutiny simply because of the change of behaviour. (The only player who has made a habit of changing behaviour to foil this sort of pattern-identification was Blaster Master. I sort of miss that, especially since his philosophy was diametrically opposite mine. OTOH, he'd drive Metallic Squink insane, as he talks maths at the drop of a hat.) Naturally, if Pleo starts showing other anti-Town tells they would be grounds for scrutiny and maybe a vote. But his claim cannot, by itself, justify a vote.
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Post by brewha on Dec 4, 2010 9:45:50 GMT -5
Oh, and if Pleo does flip scum, my vote's going right back to Coyote in the morning.
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Post by peekercpa on Dec 4, 2010 9:50:08 GMT -5
otay, paranoia apparantly falls into the bill and mhaye camp of just data dumping in one fell swoop (not a bad thing, btw - although i will certainly never get the hang of that style of play).
and just so you know paranoia the cloud reference was to another game. apologies extended for the cryptic nature of that post to those not familiar with its context.
unvote paranoia
vote pleo
this first out of the box claim really doesn't provide a heck of a lot of benefits to town as near as i can tell. plus in his post justifying why it makes sense it seems like it makes more sense for scum to go down that path rather than town. ipso phuqto, he is more like scum than anything else.
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Post by peekercpa on Dec 4, 2010 9:59:05 GMT -5
neta:
in his post he naturally takes the position that he is being truthful and is really town. of course, if he is scum then you can basically flip those arguments.
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Merestil Haye
FGM
Grudge Keeper
[on:Slumming it in the Middle-Earth][of:In the halls of Manw
Posts: 1,077
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Day One
Dec 4, 2010 10:33:31 GMT -5
Post by Merestil Haye on Dec 4, 2010 10:33:31 GMT -5
My time is somewhat limited at the moment, between work travel I'm spending most of my time at my father's place as he just had a major surgery to remove a huge cancerous tumor. He's on the mend. That's good to hear. Hopehis helth continues to improve. Charr [url=http://www.idlemafia.com/index.cgi?action=gotopost&board=aaaa&thread=1523&post=71774has claimed his rolename is not that of a Major Arcana[/url]. My gut feeling is that we either have the Kings of the four suits (Staves, Wands, Cups and Coins) or one of each rank of court card, again spread over the four suits.
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Day One
Dec 4, 2010 10:33:49 GMT -5
Post by bufftabby on Dec 4, 2010 10:33:49 GMT -5
Vote Count pleonast (5): crazypunker [103-207], mahaloth [104], metallicsquink [165], darksidecookies [169], brewha [213], peekercpa [216]
paranoia (2): peekercpa [143-216], mr ed [199], naf1138 [202]
suburban plankton (2): pleonast [17], rysto [142]
rysto (2): hockey monkey [164], catinasuit [176]
mahaloth (1): guiri [113]
naf1138 (1): suburban plankton [133]
mr ed (1): renata [200]
sister coyote (0): brewha [212-213]
catinasuit (0): guiri [94-113]
storyteller (0): peekercpa [93-143]
The Day ends in approximately 8.5 hours.
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Merestil Haye
FGM
Grudge Keeper
[on:Slumming it in the Middle-Earth][of:In the halls of Manw
Posts: 1,077
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Day One
Dec 4, 2010 10:35:43 GMT -5
Post by Merestil Haye on Dec 4, 2010 10:35:43 GMT -5
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Day One
Dec 4, 2010 10:51:11 GMT -5
Post by Inner Stickler on Dec 4, 2010 10:51:11 GMT -5
No, I was just being slow in typing and not refreshing to make sure nobody else had talked. It's a response to Rysto who seems to be telling mahaloth to just ignore it because it's Pleo, an attitude I find less than helpful. I'm not going to vote Pleo just for his claim. We know that Pleo will claim power status (ie "power role" or "vanilla") if he is Town, because he has made such claims as Town. We can also see that, if he is non-Town there are advantages to making such a claim. Also, since he has now done this in several games in sequence, suddenly stopping might bring him scrutiny simply because of the change of behaviour. (The only player who has made a habit of changing behaviour to foil this sort of pattern-identification was Blaster Master. I sort of miss that, especially since his philosophy was diametrically opposite mine. OTOH, he'd drive Metallic Squink insane, as he talks maths at the drop of a hat.) Naturally, if Pleo starts showing other anti-Town tells they would be grounds for scrutiny and maybe a vote. But his claim cannot, by itself, justify a vote. I'm not sure why you quoted me. I don't recall demanding people should vote for pleo. I know how Pleo acts; I've been in one or two games with him and am well aware that he will continue down this path regardless of what people say or do. As for me, I'm getting a weird vibe from the whole pleo, maha, ed, and rysto argument and paranoia's summary agreed with my gut. Vote: Rysto for his interesting defense of Pleo.
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Day One
Dec 4, 2010 11:13:28 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Dec 4, 2010 11:13:28 GMT -5
Am I missing something here? I had thought that I had signed up for a game of Mafia. Perhaps I was mistaken. Is this a game of "let's put random names in blue, just for kicks" instead?
Do you want to give some kind of reasoning for that vote? You cite paranoia's summary, but paranoia summarized only one of my posts, and that one had nothing to do with Pleonast.
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Merestil Haye
FGM
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[on:Slumming it in the Middle-Earth][of:In the halls of Manw
Posts: 1,077
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Day One
Dec 4, 2010 13:28:56 GMT -5
Post by Merestil Haye on Dec 4, 2010 13:28:56 GMT -5
I'm not sure why you quoted me. I don't recall demanding people should vote for pleo. I know how Pleo acts; I've been in one or two games with him and am well aware that he will continue down this path regardless of what people say or do. You can think of that post of yours as the straw that broke the camel's back. You made a post ( D01.120) arguing that Rysto was wrong in giving Pleo a pass because he'd done it before. Then you made D01.123 in which you repeated that Rysto should stop telling someone else to ignore Pleo's claim. In combination, and read in quick succession (as I did this morning in my second full read) they make it look like you were attempting to urge a lynch of Pleo. So I responded.
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Day One
Dec 4, 2010 14:34:53 GMT -5
Post by texcat on Dec 4, 2010 14:34:53 GMT -5
I find myself agreeing with Renata in her post on Mr. Ed. His first post #75 on Mahaloth's "help out" says either interpretation is equally likely. But he stoutly refuses to admit that "aid" is more likely than "help expose". #115 and again I've seen enough slips from Scum on Day 1 to know that almost anything is possible. Read the post again imagining that it's Scum talking with one another in the Scum thread. You wouldn't have to change a word. Now, am I saying that's what happened? not necessarily. Am I ruling out a slip like that or even a Freudian slip of some sort? No, I'm not. I am also surprised at how Ed reluctant is to admit that the scum could, would, and did kill over night 0. I'm not sure I can put my finger on exactly what's wrong here; it just pinged me somehow. It seems he takes the worst view possible on things, except when it comes to scum, and then he tries to give them a break? Ed chides peeker for misquoting him, although peeker included the entire quote and then referred to a portion of it. ( #76) He also chides Guiri (#77) and Suburban (#87) over the same quote. He then goes onto to totally paraphrase Blockey, using the entire quote but then restating it, just as peeker had done in #76. (#91) No one has commented on this post from night 0, but I'm still not sure what it means. Ed? What was your PM titled? Vote: Ed
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Merestil Haye
FGM
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[on:Slumming it in the Middle-Earth][of:In the halls of Manw
Posts: 1,077
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Day One
Dec 4, 2010 14:46:33 GMT -5
Post by Merestil Haye on Dec 4, 2010 14:46:33 GMT -5
Time to vote, while eyestrain and a cold are battling it out for the honour of KOing me today. Vote: Mahaloth . Basically, I have to agree with Guiri. His post D01.105 looks crafted to imply, without saying so, that he (Mahaloth) and Crazypunker crossposted. I know that on my first read through I got that impression. Yet, the post timestamps are thirteen minutes apart. This makes 105 look disingenuous.
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Day One
Dec 4, 2010 15:45:57 GMT -5
Post by special on Dec 4, 2010 15:45:57 GMT -5
texcatget your facts straight. First, I'll comment on your last point. I'm not my aptly titled PM. That should have been I recieved my aptly titled PM, which was called "PM" Secondly, peeker did quote my entire statement, but then rephrased it leaving out a key phrase which changed the meaning of my sentence. And yes, I totally paraphrased Mister Blockey. And, in fact, I asked him if I was paraphrasing him correctly to make sure that I understood. He agreed that I was mostly correct. So, basically: 1. I commented on Mahaloth's oddly turned phrase, pointing out it could have had 2 meanings. 2. I defended my own statement which was incorrectly interpreted 3. I paraphrased Mister Blockey and asked him if I was understanding him correctly. 4. I am not certain that sachertorte's death was caused by Scum. So, I have just 1 question for you, how does that indicate that I'm Scum?
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Day One
Dec 4, 2010 15:48:25 GMT -5
Post by special on Dec 4, 2010 15:48:25 GMT -5
so, with that, I'll post what probably amounts to an OMGUS vote
Unvote: paranoia Vote: Texcat
For weak reasoning on a late vote. It almost seems like an attempt to find a place to vote, something I would think Scum might be forced to do since they might struggle fabricating a case.
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Day One
Dec 4, 2010 16:31:46 GMT -5
Post by Mahaloth on Dec 4, 2010 16:31:46 GMT -5
Basically, I have to agree with Guiri. His post D01.105 looks crafted to imply, without saying so, that he (Mahaloth) and Crazypunker crossposted. I know that on my first read through I got that impression. Yet, the post timestamps are thirteen minutes apart. This makes 105 look disingenuous. It was a cross-post, though I am sure I walked away during writing my post. I see your point, though. I guess I, myself, did not realize the time between posts was more than a minute or two. I just noticed they were back to back.
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Day One
Dec 4, 2010 16:46:12 GMT -5
Post by guiri on Dec 4, 2010 16:46:12 GMT -5
@ Mahaloth, what did you make of Pleo's explanation? I asked before but you may have skimmed it. @ remaining non-voters, I really hope we don't lynch someone ( Pleo or whomever) with just 5 votes. Whether it's a vote for Pleo, Mahaloth or someone else, please get a vote in before the end of the Day.
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Day One
Dec 4, 2010 17:11:22 GMT -5
Post by charr on Dec 4, 2010 17:11:22 GMT -5
Vote: Rysto [/color]
I have no proof or evidence whatsoever.
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Day One
Dec 4, 2010 17:24:50 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Dec 4, 2010 17:24:50 GMT -5
*head explodes*
It's nice that you're being up-front about it, unlike everybody else who voted for me, but you must have had some reason for making that vote. If you have no evidence, why me over somebody else? Something must have led you to vote my way.
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Day One
Dec 4, 2010 17:30:31 GMT -5
Post by special on Dec 4, 2010 17:30:31 GMT -5
[/color] I have no proof or evidence whatsoever.[/quote] If ever, anyone were going to try to convince me that "scum wouldn't do that." This might be the best example to try to use. Of course, saying that makes it seem more plausible that Scum might, in fact, do that. crap, my head assploded too.
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Day One
Dec 4, 2010 17:35:25 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Dec 4, 2010 17:35:25 GMT -5
If ever, anyone were going to try to convince me that "scum wouldn't do that." This might be the best example to try to use. Oh, I can offer a better example. (Dio ended up flipping Town.)
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Day One
Dec 4, 2010 17:39:52 GMT -5
Post by Mahaloth on Dec 4, 2010 17:39:52 GMT -5
@ Mahaloth, what did you make of Pleo's explanation? I asked before but you may have skimmed it. @ remaining non-voters, I really hope we don't lynch someone ( Pleo or whomever) with just 5 votes. Whether it's a vote for Pleo, Mahaloth or someone else, please get a vote in before the end of the Day. 1. Sorry, didn't see your question. I don't just skim, but it doesn't mean I catch everything. 2. His explanation? Well, I have no idea why it took him so long to post. I mean, he posted several times after we asked for an explanation and ignored them. That seems scummy to me. Then, he offers his explanation, which is more or less what I expected if he gave one. I'm tempted to unvote him because he did show up finally to explain himself, but I still think there is a real chance he is bluffing and, being Day One, I don't have another case that appears stronger. Heck, I may still unvote him if some thing comes along. I do want a vote on record though, and I don't know if I'll see another case before the end of the Day that is better. 3. I agree that the vote totals for lynch are lower than I expected. Do we have a lot of non-voters?
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Day One
Dec 4, 2010 17:41:56 GMT -5
Post by special on Dec 4, 2010 17:41:56 GMT -5
If ever, anyone were going to try to convince me that "scum wouldn't do that." This might be the best example to try to use. Oh, I can offer a better example. (Dio ended up flipping Town.) were you Scum?
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Day One
Dec 4, 2010 17:43:23 GMT -5
Post by Mahaloth on Dec 4, 2010 17:43:23 GMT -5
Oh, what the fuck is that, Charr?
I walk away, come back, finish my post, post it, and he goes and votes for literally no reason at all?
That's a bigger bluff than Pleo's attempt. And since he did explain, and it appears another bold scummy move has arrived, I will follow through.
Can't fucking believe that happened now!
Unvote Pleo
Vote Charr
May we have an updated vote total?
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Day One
Dec 4, 2010 17:43:47 GMT -5
Post by Mahaloth on Dec 4, 2010 17:43:47 GMT -5
Charr, why did you wait until near the end of the Day to do that?
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Day One
Dec 4, 2010 17:45:28 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Dec 4, 2010 17:45:28 GMT -5
That unvote puts me into a tie. Self-preservation is kicking in:
Unvote Suburban Vote Pleo
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Day One
Dec 4, 2010 17:53:37 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Dec 4, 2010 17:53:37 GMT -5
My 0.02 for the page: I find it more plausible that Charr is a newbie who doesn't realize what she just stepped in, than than the idea that Ed truly thinks that "help out" is an "odd turn of phrase".
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