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Day 1
Jul 1, 2011 16:43:11 GMT -5
Post by special on Jul 1, 2011 16:43:11 GMT -5
My thoughts are we won't get to EndGame with an unclaimed mason.
But there are merits to a claim now.
And now might not be the time, but, in the event that the investigation finds a Scum, we shouldn't lynch them. We should use the Day to hunt other Scum. The found Scum would make a perfect target for the Vigilante to hit without risking hitting a Town or sitting still for a Night.
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Day 1
Jul 1, 2011 17:12:59 GMT -5
Post by texcat on Jul 1, 2011 17:12:59 GMT -5
There are merits to a mason claim now? I don't see any. Was that a typo, Ed?
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Day 1
Jul 1, 2011 17:29:37 GMT -5
Post by LightFoot on Jul 1, 2011 17:29:37 GMT -5
Question: If Jan IS in the fact a mason, should she clear her partner before the probable night kill? On the one hand, doing so would give us three clears today, and at least 2 tomorrow, and at least one clear for the two or more days following (as the doctor would have to die before the cop). Benefit: We get multiclears and mafia can never claim mason. On the other hand, there might be a benefit to her not claiming. If a scum claims to be the other mason after Jan is nk'ed, the real mason can claim and immediately we have a 50/50 chance of hitting scum. Of course if we want to lynch the real mason in a lynch or lose scenario and scum counterclaims, it could cost us the game. Thoughts? I can’t quite wrap my head around what you are saying here. Can you assist me? (not being sarcastic I just can’t break it down right now) ALSO If Jan is not a Mason, and continues to let everyone think she is . Then she is lying by omission.
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Day 1
Jul 1, 2011 17:30:22 GMT -5
Post by cassidyscarlet on Jul 1, 2011 17:30:22 GMT -5
Tex, if Jan is the mason, she is most likely dying tonight. The debate is whether the benefits outweigh the risks. But beyond a doubt there are merits.
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Day 1
Jul 1, 2011 17:35:13 GMT -5
Post by cassidyscarlet on Jul 1, 2011 17:35:13 GMT -5
Lightfoot, I was outlining the pros and cons of either having Jan claim now or not claim and let her get night killed.
Benefits for claiming now and outing partner: multiple clears for a while, making it harder for scum to drive lynches, scum can't claim mason to get the real mason lynch or avoid getting lynched themself Cons: The other mason will probably die the next night. Also, slightly narrows down the pool of possible docs.
Benefits for not outing partner: other mason won't die the next night. If a scum panics and claims mason, the real mason can counterclaim and narrow it down to one or the other. Cons: the other mason may get lynched or vigshot by accident, and we get one less clear.
Did that help?
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Day 1
Jul 1, 2011 17:35:21 GMT -5
Post by LightFoot on Jul 1, 2011 17:35:21 GMT -5
Tex, if Jan is the mason, she is most likely dying tonight. The debate is whether the benefits outweigh the risks. But beyond a doubt there are merits. Why do you say that? Mason's are not high priority targets. They want the Doc .
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Day 1
Jul 1, 2011 18:00:15 GMT -5
Post by texcat on Jul 1, 2011 18:00:15 GMT -5
I don't believe any townie should claim unless it looks like they might get lynched. Especially any of the power roles. It gives scum a sure target for the night and I don't see any benefit to town. It narrows down the lynch pool, but the claim could come in plenty of time to save the lynch. Plus, I think there is much to learn from the voting pattern of a near mislynch. If you want to argue that the scum are going to try to NK the Doc, the problem with claims is then that they narrow down the pool for the Doc, making it easier for the scum to find him.
Clears early in the game are much more help to scum than to town, IMHO.
I think the same thing applies to fubbles investigation results. While the Doc is alive and there is no chance that he is going to die, he can keep his town-result investigations to himself. They won't really help us as much as they will help scum.
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Day 1
Jul 1, 2011 18:07:09 GMT -5
Post by LightFoot on Jul 1, 2011 18:07:09 GMT -5
I don't believe any townie should claim unless it looks like they might get lynched. Especially any of the power roles. It gives scum a sure target for the night and I don't see any benefit to town. It narrows down the lynch pool, but the claim could come in plenty of time to save the lynch. Plus, I think there is much to learn from the voting pattern of a near mislynch. If you want to argue that the scum are going to try to NK the Doc, the problem with claims is then that they narrow down the pool for the Doc, making it easier for the scum to find him. Clears early in the game are much more help to scum than to town, IMHO. I think the same thing applies to fubbles investigation results. While the Doc is alive and there is no chance that he is going to die, he can keep his town-result investigations to himself. They won't really help us as much as they will help scum. I disagree with that last bit. If the elephant finds Town it makes every bit of sense for that information to be shared (their role=NO) but their alignment YES. Scum already has that information.
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Day 1
Jul 1, 2011 18:17:38 GMT -5
Post by cassidyscarlet on Jul 1, 2011 18:17:38 GMT -5
I agree with lightfoot that outing alignment results of investigations can only help town, if for no other reason than that the vigilante is less likely to hit town by mistake. I am interested in why texcat thinks it helps scum more than town though...
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Day 1
Jul 1, 2011 18:22:30 GMT -5
Post by Silver Jan on Jul 1, 2011 18:22:30 GMT -5
Hey slow down people, I wasn't claiming a Mason I was claiming........ Gosh I never thought I would get into so much trouble by helping out Town!
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Trepa Mayfield
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Day 1
Jul 1, 2011 18:59:31 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Jul 1, 2011 18:59:31 GMT -5
/snips and as a rule, I prefer it when the scum have a game-specific label other than scum. So I called them rabids. Could you give me an example of a game where you coined a pet name for scum? I coined "shills" in SSBM2...but I was the mod. No, I can't recall doing it before, because usually MHaye does it. He does a lot of upkeep stuff as a player; I kind of didn't notice before. the fact that he didn't mention the name in the thread; Rabies and rabid are the same friggin' word! The same word! The. Same. Word. The SAME WORD! AARRRGGGHHH! Well if you really were VT, it would be lying and you would expose the real town power who would counter-claim you, why would you even entertain this thought? Because I thought people might yell at me for making any sort of claim early Day 1, but I didn't want people speculating about what power role I might or might not be. Okay, the scum can figure it out with this post, so let's not dance. Jan is soft-claiming mason. I'll buy that for now. No need for the other one to claim for now. If Jan is truthful, she'll probably be NKed soonish (since the doc needs to protect the cop first). If she's not, the real masons can counter-claim whenever they need to. How do you reconcile: "There should be other players who do know what I mean." with your deduction that she's claiming mason? The only way Silver Jan would know what other players had in their PMs is if she were mason or scum. And since I don't think she's claiming scum, she's claiming mason. If you're talking about the plurality of "players", I just figured it was a mistake. Hey slow down people, I wasn't claiming a Mason I was claiming........ Gosh I never thought I would get into so much trouble by helping out Town! Oh. Clearly I have made a mistake in reasoning.
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Day 1
Jul 1, 2011 19:52:01 GMT -5
Post by texcat on Jul 1, 2011 19:52:01 GMT -5
I agree with lightfoot that outing alignment results of investigations can only help town, if for no other reason than that the vigilante is less likely to hit town by mistake. I am interested in why texcat thinks it helps scum more than town though... I'm guessing that the vig is not mandatory, since the role description was just "vig" and not "mandatory vig". If the vig has to kill every night, then I would agree that limiting his potential mistargets has an advantage. If the vig is not mandatory, I don't think he should be shooting in the dark -- especially while the doc is still in the dark! BTW I like Ed's idea of letting the vig take care of any scum that fubs uncovers. I do think that claims help scum more than town in these early days -- limiting the pool for the doc. I'm not sure that investigation results would be any advantage to scum. I certainly agree that fubs should tell us his investigation results; I just see no hurry. We should know Tomorrow whether the vig is mandatory. If there is a vig kill Tonight, I would certainly agree with fubs telling all.
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Day 1
Jul 1, 2011 20:03:58 GMT -5
Post by special on Jul 1, 2011 20:03:58 GMT -5
There are merits to a mason claim now? I don't see any. Was that a typo, Ed? no typo. yes, there are some merits: - We won't waste time considering them for lynching.
- We force the Scum to kill them or else suffer the consequences if we get enough confirmed Town, which prevents the Scum from killing the doctor.
- The Vig won't be tempted to take a shot at them, which is especially useful if our Vig is compulsory.
- Silver Jan appears to have claimed mason anyway. This prevents a Scum from fake claiming it later while under pressure to out the other Mason.
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Day 1
Jul 1, 2011 20:05:30 GMT -5
Post by special on Jul 1, 2011 20:05:30 GMT -5
Hey slow down people, I wasn't claiming a Mason I was claiming........ Gosh I never thought I would get into so much trouble by helping out Town! Then explain your post better.
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Day 1
Jul 1, 2011 20:06:52 GMT -5
Post by special on Jul 1, 2011 20:06:52 GMT -5
The Vig should be killing any Scum that are found via investigation so we don't waste a lynch on them.
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Day 1
Jul 1, 2011 20:30:40 GMT -5
Post by Sister Coyote on Jul 1, 2011 20:30:40 GMT -5
ALSO If Jan is not a Mason, and continues to let everyone think she is . Then she is lying by omission. There is nothing wrong with a lie of omission in this game. It's lies of commission (e.g., I claim I'm a watcher [not a claim] and on Day Three I claim Night One I saw SoSo visit SuchSuch and on Night Two I saw SuchSuch visit NoNo, only SuchSuch is known to be vanilla and YES, I've been in a game where this happened) that are the problem.
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Day 1
Jul 1, 2011 20:52:25 GMT -5
Post by Suburban Plankton on Jul 1, 2011 20:52:25 GMT -5
Am I the only person in this game who didn't read Jan's posts as being a Mason claim?
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Day 1
Jul 1, 2011 21:06:23 GMT -5
Post by LightFoot on Jul 1, 2011 21:06:23 GMT -5
Am I the only person in this game who didn't read Jan's posts as being a Mason claim? I didn't
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Day 1
Jul 1, 2011 21:10:07 GMT -5
Post by LightFoot on Jul 1, 2011 21:10:07 GMT -5
There are merits to a mason claim now? I don't see any. Was that a typo, Ed? no typo. yes, there are some merits: - We won't waste time considering them for lynching.
And it narrows the field [/li][li] We force the Scum to kill them or else suffer the consequences if we get enough confirmed Town, which prevents the Scum from killing the doctor. [/quote] It “lightens” the pool for the doc . I don’t like it [/li][li] The Vig won't be tempted to take a shot at them, which is especially useful if our Vig is compulsory.[/quote] that works on that level [/li][li] Silver Jan appears to have claimed mason anyway. This prevents a Scum from fake claiming it later while under pressure to out the other Mason. [/li][/ul][/quote] Silver Jan is denying the Mason claim. I have seen where the Masons being outed early allowed Scum to hit hard (I would prefer that not happen) Arg. It is preferable to me (and good for Town ) if there are no more claims D1 How much ammo do YOU want to give Scum? • Generic YOU
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Day 1
Jul 1, 2011 21:24:47 GMT -5
Post by special on Jul 1, 2011 21:24:47 GMT -5
no typo. yes, there are some merits: - We won't waste time considering them for lynching.
And it narrows the field It “lightens” the pool for the doc . I don’t like it that works on that level [/li][li] Silver Jan appears to have claimed mason anyway. This prevents a Scum from fake claiming it later while under pressure to out the other Mason. [/li][/ul][/quote] Silver Jan is denying the Mason claim. I have seen where the Masons being outed early allowed Scum to hit hard (I would prefer that not happen) Arg. It is preferable to me (and good for Town ) if there are no more claims D1 How much ammo do YOU want to give Scum? • Generic YOU [/quote] I'm not yet advocating a mason claim. I'm just pointing out that there are positives to it. We're putting too much weight on the Scum finding the Doc. Let's look at it in best case scenario for the Scum: Day 1: We lynch Town Night 1: fubble finds a Scum. Scum kill the Doc. If we assume we're at 15-5 (5 mislynches), on Day 2, we have 13(3 confirmed fubble and masons)-5 (4 mislynches). We've got a viable Scum for the Vig to kill. We lynch someone else. To continue worst case: We lynch Town Vig Kills Scum Scum kill fubble. We start Day 3 at 11(2 confirmed)-4 (4 mislynches) Now, if we change nothing but fubble finds Town: D1 15(3 confirmed)-5 (5 mislynches) N1 14(3)-5 (4.5) D2 13(4)-5 (4) etc ~~~~~~~~~~ Now, in a more likely scenario, let's say the Scum don't find the Doc until Night 3 and fubble finds Town. D1 15(3)-5 (5 mislynches) N1 14(3)-5 D2 13(4)-5 N2 12(4)-5 D3 11(5)-5 N3 10(5)-5 D4 9(6)-5 At that point, we have 6 confirmed Town. That's really good! And we'd have only 8 unconfirmed players. With a lynch and a Vig kill, we could kill off the unknowns before the Scum could kill off the confirmed (assuming the Vig survives) Which, of course, is why it would be very tempting for the Scum to kill the masons. ~~~~~~~~~~ I feel I've explained this poorly. I'm sure someone else can do a better job. In any case, there are definite benefits for am early mason claim.
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Day 1
Jul 1, 2011 21:25:21 GMT -5
Post by LightFoot on Jul 1, 2011 21:25:21 GMT -5
I agree with lightfoot that outing alignment results of investigations can only help town, if for no other reason than that the vigilante is less likely to hit town by mistake. I am interested in why texcat thinks it helps scum more than town though... I'm guessing that the vig is not mandatory, since the role description was just "vig" and not "mandatory vig". If the vig has to kill every night, then I would agree that limiting his potential mistargets has an advantage. If the vig is not mandatory, I don't think he should be shooting in the dark -- especially while the doc is still in the dark! BTW I like Ed's idea of letting the vig take care of any scum that fubs uncovers. I do think that claims help scum more than town in these early days -- limiting the pool for the doc. I'm not sure that investigation results would be any advantage to scum. I certainly agree that fubs should tell us his investigation results; I just see no hurry. We should know Tomorrow whether the vig is mandatory. If there is a vig kill Tonight, I would certainly agree with fubs telling all. W.H.A.T.? That was not the Q. The convo was about the detective sharing results. claims are a different animal - pun intended
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Day 1
Jul 1, 2011 21:31:03 GMT -5
Post by LightFoot on Jul 1, 2011 21:31:03 GMT -5
@ Ed I think I get part of that but your use of "Best case/Worst case" seems askew? And the quote feature put some of my words my words in the wrong place
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Day 1
Jul 1, 2011 21:32:39 GMT -5
Post by LightFoot on Jul 1, 2011 21:32:39 GMT -5
Bah and I see my quote tags did not post as I intended
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Day 1
Jul 1, 2011 21:34:12 GMT -5
Post by LightFoot on Jul 1, 2011 21:34:12 GMT -5
The bullet points above are Ed's some of my comments ended up in the quote tags I can repost it if it needs clarified?
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Day 1
Jul 1, 2011 21:38:02 GMT -5
Post by special on Jul 1, 2011 21:38:02 GMT -5
The bullet points above are Ed's some of my comments ended up in the quote tags I can repost it if it needs clarified? yeah, I made my comment about Silver Jan being a mason before I saw the post where she denied claiming that. I was posting as I read. And, her being a mason was probably a tipping point in having the masons claim early. But, I stand by my statement, there are advantages to an early mason claim.
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Day 1
Jul 1, 2011 21:38:37 GMT -5
Post by special on Jul 1, 2011 21:38:37 GMT -5
It just might not outweigh the disadvantages. But I think it's worthy of discussion.
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Day 1
Jul 1, 2011 21:57:24 GMT -5
Post by LightFoot on Jul 1, 2011 21:57:24 GMT -5
The bullet points above are Ed's some of my comments ended up in the quote tags I can repost it if it needs clarified? yeah, I made my comment about Silver Jan being a mason before I saw the post where she denied claiming that. I was posting as I read. And, her being a mason was probably a tipping point in having the masons claim early. But, I stand by my statement, there are advantages to an early mason claim. If one of the Masons is not in danger of a lynch D1, Why? It lightens the pool for Scum to tag real power roles. (I'm asking>) The [giggle]"elephant in the room" [/g] makes sense in this game for claiming but I am not quite seeing your logic?
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Meeko
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Day 1
Jul 1, 2011 22:12:57 GMT -5
Post by Meeko on Jul 1, 2011 22:12:57 GMT -5
What, exactly, is wrong with Puns in this game? ;D
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Vote Count Trepa Mayfield (8) : Guiri, LightFoot, SilverJan, Colby11, Suburban Plankton, Captain Pinkies, Cassidy Scarlet, Archangel Colby11 (3) : Gnarlycharlie, Sister Coyote, Trepa Mayfield Special Ed (1) : Fubbleskag Sister Coyote (1) : Moodymitchy CassidyScarlet (1) : JustBeingGinger
Day 1 ends in just under:
2 days, 0 hours, 47 minutes and 32 seconds
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Day 1
Jul 1, 2011 22:45:28 GMT -5
Post by special on Jul 1, 2011 22:45:28 GMT -5
yeah, I made my comment about Silver Jan being a mason before I saw the post where she denied claiming that. I was posting as I read. And, her being a mason was probably a tipping point in having the masons claim early. But, I stand by my statement, there are advantages to an early mason claim. If one of the Masons is not in danger of a lynch D1, Why? It lightens the pool for Scum to tag real power roles. (I'm asking>) The [giggle]"elephant in the room" [/g] makes sense in this game for claiming but I am not quite seeing your logic? Listen, there are advantages and disadvantages. read my posts. At no point did I advocate having the masons claim. I'll admit I would have leaned that way had Silver Jan claimed mason. If you can't see any advantages, then I'm sorry. If you'd like to discuss them, great! If you'd like to discuss the disadvantages great! if you want to deny the existence of any advantages, then, well, that's not so great, and I'm not sure why you're so blind.
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Day 1
Jul 1, 2011 22:52:09 GMT -5
Post by special on Jul 1, 2011 22:52:09 GMT -5
That might have come off a little more harsh than it should have. I'm just horrible at communicating.
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