Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Sept 27, 2012 14:05:54 GMT -5
::: clears his throat ::: Again, I wonder if we have scum in this game. Just thinking out loud......So if we didn't have Scum how do we win the game? Take out the Hostile 3rd Parties? Dang that would make for one confusing mess, but would make sense with all of the 3rd parties cropping up! Iirc there is precedence for a non scum game. And well aren't gastard games by definition, relative to normal games, confusing?
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Sept 27, 2012 14:07:06 GMT -5
Pleonast is engaging currently in the very definition of a red herring.
I am done here.
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Post by wombat99 on Sept 27, 2012 14:45:29 GMT -5
Rich, 1) This isn't Wombat's second rodeo as far as I'm aware. 2) The Mod usually PMs investigative power roles, so although you weren't aware of any PMs beyond the first one in your first game they were undoubtedly happening. Correct. Marathon was my first game, but I also played in Colby's Hell's Kitchen game and Conspiracy 6. So this makes game #4.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Sept 27, 2012 14:49:31 GMT -5
The Sample Hostile Win Condition supplied in the rules thread reads: "You are town. You win when all hostile non-town players have been eliminated." For sake of the wincon, Scum == Hostile Third Party. So if there were no Scum, then we would need to eliminate all of the Hostile Third Party players, yes. Calling a horse's tail a leg does not make it a leg. What in the world are you talking about? dizzymrslizzy asked "If there are no Scum in the game, then how would we win?" I answered her, that in that situation we would win by eliminating all Hostile Third Parties. Town wins by eliminating all "hostile non-town players"; if there are no Scum, then the only type of "hostile non-town players" would be Third Party. Do you disagree?
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Post by Pleonast on Sept 27, 2012 15:22:32 GMT -5
If they are hostile, why do I need to make a case for it? Because: 1) If you're right, you need to convince others so that they're lynched. 2) Other players use the cases you make to evaluate you. You don't have to vote. You don't have to give a reason for your vote. You don't have explain why your vote advances the town win condition. But if you don't do those things, then why should anyone else vote for who you are? Why should anyone think your motivations are town, when you don't want to give a pro-town reason for your vote. You say don't trust me. That's fine. How does lynching someone who isn't trusted help town? Town wins by lynching hostile players, not untrusted players. Make a case for why I'm hostile.
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Parzival
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Post by Parzival on Sept 27, 2012 15:25:53 GMT -5
Not to speak for Meeko, but I think he's saying that 'scum' as third-party is still scum. I think the only distinction we'd have to make there is how the groups are organized.
If there is no group of players that get to discuss things off this board and has a night-kill and is also hostile to town, then maybe it's a 'no-scum' game. That makes it tougher for us, since we can't catch the players who are working together.
Otherwise, there must remain (or the game would be over already) some players that are hostile to the town. These players will have information that they don't want to reveal or they want to lie about, so we have to look for that.
The expected situation is that there are both. If we don't try to find them and instead go after third parties, we could hand the game to them.
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Parzival
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Post by Parzival on Sept 27, 2012 15:27:03 GMT -5
By 'them' in my last sentence I meant 'scum'. Edited my post and didn't reread it properly.
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Post by Inner Stickler on Sept 27, 2012 15:32:45 GMT -5
What?? This makes no sense to me. Imo having in a mislynch is way worse than lynching someone we KNOW to be 3rd party. It makes one less place for scum to hide and confuse us with. At this point, there are so many places for scum to hide that the removal of one or two of them is a minor disadvantage at best. Were it Day 6 and we're down to 6 players, more caution may be called for. But I will choose to say this: The town vigilante will have reason to be less hesitant to fire at will. Poor Will.
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Post by Silver Jan on Sept 27, 2012 15:55:27 GMT -5
Just thinking out loud......So if we didn't have Scum how do we win the game? Take out the Hostile 3rd Parties? Dang that would make for one confusing mess, but would make sense with all of the 3rd parties cropping up! Iirc there is precedence for a non scum game. And well aren't gastard games by definition, relative to normal games, confusing? Is there a precedence for a non scum game? Just ask Pizza!
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Post by Silver Jan on Sept 27, 2012 16:04:40 GMT -5
Iirc there is precedence for a non scum game. And well aren't gastard games by definition, relative to normal games, confusing? Is there a precedence for a non scum game? Just ask Pizza! I must say that in that game we were allowed to chat out of game, so I cannot see it happening here.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Sept 27, 2012 16:31:08 GMT -5
Oh skeptical smiley, why do you thwart me so? Also: vote: Meeko because I don't like your votes on pizza or pleo; they seem too easy to me. you speak of "easy" votes. What the he'll is yours on me then? Pleonast remains anti town in role and in play style. Pizza has uber magic bagged and is channeling pleonasts play more than pleonast is. And has. On iPod... Still Meeko: You seem to fault Pizza for how he chose to share his alleged information, but you don't really explain why. Please do me a favor and explain why you find that to be scummy in plain English without using any allegories or analogies. In anticipation of your answer, I will wager that you would prefer that perfect information either be shared in its entirety or not be acknowledged publicly at all by whoever has the knowledge, and I think that is a false dichotomy. Pizza has apparently weighed the information he was allegedly provided and decided that some of it is worth sharing now while keeping other parts to himself for now. This may draw attention to him and perhaps make him a target, but that behavior on its own is not necessarily anti-town or suspect, imho. Meeko seems to be picking up votes (yet again) due in part to his communication style and post volume, while other players who have had similar perspectives (KidV wrt Pleonast) and just stated them in fewer, easier to follow posts don't seem to be getting the heat. The fact that KidV was our presumptive Merc puppeteer last Night, who says he wants to hunt scum but so far has just re-hashed more Pleo/Third Party strategy while not providing any information as to what he did with the Merc is worth noting. Not saying I necessarily fault him for it, just that it is worth noting. Add to that, as someone mentioned on Day 1, KidV's admission of how many votes he bid on the Merc could be argued as having had the effect of escalating the discussion surrounding the two claimed Third Party lynch leaders on Day 1. Self-preservation would certainly be a motivation to do that, but it is not the only potential motivation. A traditional Scum faction would be more than happy to keep people focused on which exposed Third Party to lynch. A traditional Scum faction would also not be risking much, if anything at all, by trying to gain some Town cred by sharing the Merc Menu had one of their number won the bidding.
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Post by Sister Coyote on Sept 27, 2012 16:46:46 GMT -5
Meeko -
Yes, there is precident.
But, to clarify my question, I'm wondering why your mind is jumping to "no-Scum game".
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Post by Sister Coyote on Sept 27, 2012 17:14:22 GMT -5
Meeko seems to be picking up votes (yet again) due in part to his communication style and post volume, while other players who have had similar perspectives (KidV wrt Pleonast) and just stated them in fewer, easier to follow posts don't seem to be getting the heat. In my case, no, it's less about that than a) the "easy" nature of both his votes without his apparently considering possible alternatives, and b) his throwing out the possibility that we are Scum-less. Nobody bit yesterDay, so he pulled it again today; and as burby said, even if we don't have "traditional" Scum, there are -- per the Mod -- hostile third parties that need to be eliminated for a Town win. QFT.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Sept 27, 2012 17:18:43 GMT -5
I posed a similar question to him Yesterday. I am on iPod Again why do I think no scum? It would be gastard for starters. Second, iirc all of the claims so far have been third party. Can someone co firm this for me? What would scum on a space station "look" like? Color wise how can that happen? I think there was another question to me outstanding will get to that in about 4 or so more hours after work, and not on a mobile. Also, I wonder if the entire math homework was not made up to avoid lurking per pleonasts claimed role. I find it more fishy than not - all of it. The fact that the only claimed or flipped roles have been Third Party is probably a contributing factor to it still being on folks' minds.
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Post by Pollux Oil on Sept 27, 2012 17:26:55 GMT -5
Day 2 Vote CountPleonast (3 votes) - Meeko, KidVermicious, Colby11 Meeko (2 votes) - SisterCoyote, Pleonast JustBeingGinger (1 vote) - Penalty Vote Askthepizzaguy (1 vote) - Meeko With these votes, Pleonast will be lynched.But what alignment is the bunny? Can we vote the bunny? Sure. It won't DO anything, but feel free. [green]Pollux, am I breaking any rules by viewing his videos?[/green] ...not...that...I'm...aware of?
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Post by Rich Beckman on Sept 27, 2012 17:34:28 GMT -5
<snip> 2) The Mod usually PMs investigative power roles, so although you weren't aware of any PMs beyond the first one in your first game they were undoubtedly happening. Yes, but those PMs were expected. My sense is that guiri was not expecting a PM.
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Post by Sister Coyote on Sept 27, 2012 17:46:01 GMT -5
I should hope that guiri was not expecting to be cursed, nor dizzymisslizzy to be infected, and so forth. But, for future reference ( ), it is not uncommon for Mods to PM people about things other people have done to them, whether those PMs are expected or not. As I said -- I think the only conclusion that can be drawn, currently, from said PMs is that IF guiri and Lizzy et al. are not lying, then: 1) All killers were re-directed to peeks last night via some mechanic, but no other Night actions were redirected or 2) All killers chose to kill peeks of their own volition.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Sept 27, 2012 17:52:42 GMT -5
Or a single kill had overkill color, like an unstoppable kill or something. First you cut of the head, then you freeze, then you shatter them to bits. But the other two hypotheticals seem more likely, seeing as Peeker would have been an odd choice for a scum kill.
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Post by Rich Beckman on Sept 27, 2012 18:00:56 GMT -5
<snip> [green]Pollux, am I breaking any rules by viewing his videos?[/green] ...not...that...I'm...aware of? I'll take that as a yes. Meeko, I'll take a look at your channel after this game is over.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Sept 27, 2012 19:20:55 GMT -5
Now you've done it, Pollux. Your unchecked use of ellipses has traumatized another victim.
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Post by lauriern on Sept 27, 2012 19:39:17 GMT -5
Holy Mackerel! Take a break for a couple of days and come back to a jillion posts! Will try to catch up tonight, but have to go to bed early - another busy day tomorrow.
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Post by crys on Sept 27, 2012 20:22:35 GMT -5
I did not receive any PMs that I stubbed any of my toes or acquired any curses or viral infections. I had originally assumed the toe-stubbing had happened IRL, so if I could make a suggestion to be explicit about PMs received from the Mod unless you feel inclined to use super sly breadcrumbs for such things. Just know that super-sly breadcrumbs can result in people thinking that you actually stubbed your toe. I also thought the toe stubbing was IRL. Not sure what to make on the whole pm thingy with stubbed toes and virus. I did not get any weird pm's about injury/illnesses.
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Post by LightFoot on Sept 27, 2012 20:40:20 GMT -5
I did not receive any PMs that I stubbed any of my toes or acquired any curses or viral infections. I had originally assumed the toe-stubbing had happened IRL, so if I could make a suggestion to be explicit about PMs received from the Mod unless you feel inclined to use super sly breadcrumbs for such things. Just know that super-sly breadcrumbs can result in people thinking that you actually stubbed your toe. I also thought the toe stubbing was IRL. Not sure what to make on the whole pm thingy with stubbed toes and virus. I did not get any weird pm's about injury/illnesses. Catching up backwards- anything said- typed- in game- could be game related It's a good thing to remember
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Post by LightFoot on Sept 27, 2012 20:50:40 GMT -5
To the “ are there Scum?” question The rules mention both Town and Scum in the example Which doesn’t really tell us anything
to respond to KidV's question much earlier- this is the time frame I have to play most days so I post then..
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Post by LightFoot on Sept 27, 2012 20:59:03 GMT -5
Or a single kill had overkill color, like an unstoppable kill or something. First you cut of the head, then you freeze, then you shatter them to bits. But the other two hypotheticals seem more likely, seeing as Peeker would have been an odd choice for a scum kill. If Peeker wasn't the Scum kill. Why was there no Scum Kill? OR are you saying he " took one for the team " ( that he does not appear to have been on- by the colour) by triggering this nexus that has been mentioned? colour me cornfused?
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Sept 27, 2012 23:02:38 GMT -5
Calling a horse's tail a leg does not make it a leg. What in the world are you talking about? dizzymrslizzy asked "If there are no Scum in the game, then how would we win?" I answered her, that in that situation we would win by eliminating all Hostile Third Parties. Town wins by eliminating all "hostile non-town players"; if there are no Scum, then the only type of "hostile non-town players" would be Third Party. Do you disagree? You said that scum == third party. I always thought scum was second party. Hence a third is neither town nor scum. You can call scum third party....but scum are still scum.
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Sept 27, 2012 23:06:37 GMT -5
Meeko - Yes, there is precident. But, to clarify my question, I'm wondering why your mind is jumping to "no-Scum game". Gastard game is gastard. But seriously, I don't think we can rule it out.
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Sept 27, 2012 23:08:24 GMT -5
Now you've done it, Pollux. Your unchecked use of ellipses has traumatized another victim. Are you saying my YouTube channel is collateral damage?
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Post by LightFoot on Sept 27, 2012 23:19:09 GMT -5
Pleo is turning into ‘white noise’ and it seems many are willing to let him achieve his posted wincon without much challenge
2nd highest poster D1
Currently 6th highest this Day
Like Bill and I believe others have said Pleo is dangling his little reveal of a player’s character Name ( which we know means OH SO MUCH usually) to remain alive another Day Then what?
Granted, to me, his posted win-con does not sound win stealing- oh that would be too gastard-right?- ( and I’m not sure it’s all truth even) but the constant insistence and rehashing of his ‘points’ is tiring on the eyeballs.
I understand that if he is not hostile that he is a warm body when heads are counted- but- is it worth it?
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Sept 27, 2012 23:27:38 GMT -5
you speak of "easy" votes. What the he'll is yours on me then? Pleonast remains anti town in role and in play style. Pizza has uber magic bagged and is channeling pleonasts play more than pleonast is. And has. On iPod... Still Meeko: You seem to fault Pizza for how he chose to share his alleged information, but you don't really explain why. Please do me a favor and explain why you find that to be scummy in plain English without using any allegories or analogies. In anticipation of your answer, I will wager that you would prefer that perfect information either be shared in its entirety or not be acknowledged publicly at all by whoever has the knowledge, and I think that is a false dichotomy. Pizza has apparently weighed the information he was allegedly provided and decided that some of it is worth sharing now while keeping other parts to himself for now. This may draw attention to him and perhaps make him a target, but that behavior on its own is not necessarily anti-town or suspect, imho. Meeko seems to be picking up votes (yet again) due in part to his communication style and post volume, while other players who have had similar perspectives (KidV wrt Pleonast) and just stated them in fewer, easier to follow posts don't seem to be getting the heat. The fact that KidV was our presumptive Merc puppeteer last Night, who says he wants to hunt scum but so far has just re-hashed more Pleo/Third Party strategy while not providing any information as to what he did with the Merc is worth noting. Not saying I necessarily fault him for it, just that it is worth noting. Add to that, as someone mentioned on Day 1, KidV's admission of how many votes he bid on the Merc could be argued as having had the effect of escalating the discussion surrounding the two claimed Third Party lynch leaders on Day 1. Self-preservation would certainly be a motivation to do that, but it is not the only potential motivation. A traditional Scum faction would be more than happy to keep people focused on which exposed Third Party to lynch. A traditional Scum faction would also not be risking much, if anything at all, by trying to gain some Town cred by sharing the Merc Menu had one of their number won the bidding. No allegory or allusion?! ( but seriously, I was thinking they helped people understand me. ) You are talking about this post idlemafia.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=poll&thread=2047&page=4#98522Correct? I am aware you are intending the phrase "perfect information" as far as game theory goes. I would like to use the words but not the phrase. That is, I believe pizza has imperfect information. Not in the sense you used "perfect information". The assumption here, from you, is that pizza is truthful. Pizza demands too much for what he offers. Pleonast has said many things. Taking the cake was his, Pleonast's , effort of you don't have to trust me, BUT , and he gives a laundry list he wants us to trust him on. Pizza then comes in over the top of this, and asserts that he has gotten messages and is also only revealing part of his information. He demands as much, if not more than Pleonast is demanding. And he is offering even less. The entire post is a landgrab, and is unlike any previous post for him. Pings, in so many words. Pings with a capital PINGS. Quid pro quo Clarice. [ can I have just one, please?] He then has the audacity to go opposite of Pleonast and go lone wolf ... I will go to my grave with my secrets, nayah nayah. Not touching you, not touching you. Pleonast, ( and how on earth am I defending him here) made appearances to work with town .... The quid pro quo. Pizza is again stealing the marbles, screw you guys going home. Not going to apologize for the other references. I think the are common enough.
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