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Post by LightFoot on Sept 27, 2012 23:35:28 GMT -5
I found it interesting ? that Pizza didn't seem to be concerned about the origion of his message.
I don't recall reading a qualifier about the validity of the message?
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Post by Inner Stickler on Sept 27, 2012 23:52:59 GMT -5
Pizza has played enough games that should I come to trust him as a member of town, I would trust that he puts the appropriate amount of faith in the messages. I imagine that the pm is forecasting an event or situation that Pizza will provide information for. The quality of the information will be the messenger's voucher.
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Post by LightFoot on Sept 28, 2012 0:03:30 GMT -5
Pizza has played enough games that should I come to trust him as a member of town, I would trust that he puts the appropriate amount of faith in the messages. I imagine that the pm is forecasting an event or situation that Pizza will provide information for. The quality of the information will be the messenger's voucher. This reads as double speak- Or should I just go to bed? I can't wrap it
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Sept 28, 2012 0:19:12 GMT -5
Or a single kill had overkill color, like an unstoppable kill or something. First you cut of the head, then you freeze, then you shatter them to bits. But the other two hypotheticals seem more likely, seeing as Peeker would have been an odd choice for a scum kill. If Peeker wasn't the Scum kill. Why was there no Scum Kill? OR are you saying he " took one for the team " ( that he does not appear to have been on- by the colour) by triggering this nexus that has been mentioned? colour me cornfused? Scum could have hypothetically aimed somewhere else but the kill ended up on Peeker. There are lots of different power effects that could make something like that happen, one of which is called a nexus of which there can be many variations.
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Post by Inner Stickler on Sept 28, 2012 0:42:06 GMT -5
This reads as double speak- Or should I just go to bed? I can't wrap it Pizzaguy said he's planning on sharing more at a later date. I'm guessing that what he's already shared is meaningful to someone else who can act on it or something will happen later on that ATPG can clarify. The acting on or the clarification, should they arrive will bolster the validity of the message to ATPG if for some reason he is doubtful of the message's veracity and my faith in ATPG is such that should I feel he is being truthful and not attempting to mislead town, I would trust him to not put his trust in a message that could be a lie.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Sept 28, 2012 1:05:34 GMT -5
I am aware you are intending the phrase "perfect information" as far as game theory goes. I would like to use the words but not the phrase. That is, I believe pizza has imperfect information. Why do you believe that? That was my hypothetical assumption, yes. But that doesn't mean it is my analytical assumption. I honestly don't know if Pizza is lying or if he was lied to, and I can't see how anyone but he and the Mod and perhaps a message-sender would be able to know. What is he demanding? You're the one apparently demanding to see all of his alleged marbles (which is an allegory by the way...no cookie), in spite of the fact if he is Town and if he actually has the marbles he says he has, there could be any number of reasons why it would not be in Town's best interest for them all to be dumped on the floor right now. I don't think Pleo is asking for trust. I think a better summary of what Pleonast is apparently hoping for is sufficient benefit of the doubt so as not to get lynched. See above request for a list of Pizza's demands. Undefined, cryptic allegory detected. If he got the message overNight, his first post of the Day would have been his first opportunity to talk about it. You've already fallen off the wagon. Why hold back? Hyperbole. And allegory. And you seem to be completely ignoring any scenario where Pizza's play could be pro-town. That's not what I'm getting from his posts, but even if it were, if his information is potentially useful to Scum then taking it to his grave could very well be the Towniest thing he could do with it. He's a smart guy and he gets to make his own decisions. You owe the Dark Side and entire village of cookie-baking Keebler elves at this point, but your tab is still open.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Sept 28, 2012 1:09:59 GMT -5
Before anyone picks the nit, I acknowledge that I'm quite probably conflating allegory and analogy or there are some better terms I could have used.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Sept 28, 2012 1:16:01 GMT -5
What in the world are you talking about? dizzymrslizzy asked "If there are no Scum in the game, then how would we win?" I answered her, that in that situation we would win by eliminating all Hostile Third Parties. Town wins by eliminating all "hostile non-town players"; if there are no Scum, then the only type of "hostile non-town players" would be Third Party. Do you disagree? You said that scum == third party. I always thought scum was second party. Hence a third is neither town nor scum. You can call scum third party....but scum are still scum. I did not say "Scum == Third Party" I said "For sake of the wincon, Scum == Hostile Third Party" Notice all of the extra words in there? Each of them has meaning. Since the Town's Win Condition is to lynch all Hostile Non-Town players, lynching a Scum and lynching a Hostile Third Party are equivalent in terms of advancing that wincon. That is what I said. I most certainly did not say "Scum and Third Party are the same thing".
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Post by Meeko on Sept 28, 2012 1:20:41 GMT -5
Cookies, why should Pleonast get benefit of the doubt?
CF marathon.
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Post by Meeko on Sept 28, 2012 1:22:39 GMT -5
You said that scum == third party. I always thought scum was second party. Hence a third is neither town nor scum. You can call scum third party....but scum are still scum. I did not say "Scum == Third Party" I said "For sake of the wincon, Scum == Hostile Third Party" Notice all of the extra words in there? Each of them has meaning. Since the Town's Win Condition is to lynch all Hostile Non-Town players, lynching a Scum and lynching a Hostile Third Party are equivalent in terms of advancing that wincon. That is what I said. I most certainly did not say "Scum and Third Party are the same thing". Equivalence and same thing......... Are not the same thing? To say nothing of the fact that you used JAVA And I'm assuming C shorthand at the double equal.
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Post by Meeko on Sept 28, 2012 1:27:57 GMT -5
Before anyone picks the nit, I acknowledge that I'm quite probably conflating allegory and analogy or there are some better terms I could have used. picks the nit..... Analogy Cookies, you are all over the place in regards to my posts. Can I speak to the "Meeko is teh cool" cookies for two seconds? We have played before. You know how I play. Why all the crackdown on allegory just now?
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Sept 28, 2012 1:32:40 GMT -5
Cookies, why should Pleonast get benefit of the doubt? I didn't say that he should get it. I said that is what he seems to be asking for as opposed to the trust that you seemed to think he is demanding. I honestly don't even know what demanding trust would look like in a Mafia game. We don't even trust the dead people to stay dead sometimes. No one gets trust. We get varying degrees of benefit of the doubt I happen to be giving Pleo some benefit of the doubt for the moment because his claimed power is confirmable and, as was just re-stated, in this game Third Party does not mean Scum.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Sept 28, 2012 1:39:27 GMT -5
I did not say "Scum == Third Party" I said "For sake of the wincon, Scum == Hostile Third Party" Notice all of the extra words in there? Each of them has meaning. Since the Town's Win Condition is to lynch all Hostile Non-Town players, lynching a Scum and lynching a Hostile Third Party are equivalent in terms of advancing that wincon. That is what I said. I most certainly did not say "Scum and Third Party are the same thing". Equivalence and same thing......... Are not the same thing? To say nothing of the fact that you used JAVA And I'm assuming C shorthand at the double equal. Hostile, Meeko. The key word in that equation is hostile. Hostile as defined by the Mod in the rules. Hostile as in the counterpoint to Non-hostile. Because I'm having a hard time following your logic and I think other people are too and I think it is a contributing factor to you getting votes that is independent of whether or not you are actually saying suspicious things or not. I want to understand you before I decide if I suspect you or the people who apparently suspect you.
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Post by Askthepizzaguy on Sept 28, 2012 1:52:17 GMT -5
He then has the audacity to go opposite of Pleonast and go lone wolf ... I will go to my grave with my secrets, nayah nayah. Not touching you, not touching you. Pleonast, ( and how on earth am I defending him here) made appearances to work with town .... The quid pro quo. Pizza is again stealing the marbles, screw you guys going home. What I said was, here's some free and vital information. I will not answer questions related to how I gained such vital information, nor will votes or pressure move me on this matter, because the natural reaction for townies is to pick at any bump that sticks out. All that will occur here is that bump will turn into a wound. In heading off such a mistake before it begins, I stated that the decision to reveal more is mine to make, and it's not going to be a democratic one, rather unilateral. The reason is for the same reason science isn't put to a vote. Facts are facts even if they're unpopular. A scientist is usually more aware of the facts than a lay person. So unless you understand what information I understand, your opinion is not educated enough to make the correct decision here. That's another reason why this isn't to be decided democratically. The information I gave is rather useful to town, in that you have some assurances that vigilantism, while still not very useful if you fire wildly inaccurately, at least isn't as dangerous as typically so. Rather than wait for clear signals or sure things, it may be tactically advantageous to fire at will, in the hopes of getting one by chance or by intuition. This is consistent with town play I've demonstrated before, in the Hurrdurrburg game. The vigilante is the strongest protown in most games, capable of winning the game single-handedly. Even detectives cannot do that, they must convince and force a lynch. They possess the power. My message is for that person. Your power is even more useful here, because there are some guarantees that you won't do as much harm. As such, while I do not advocate a specific target, I trust that if said role were to fire at will, they will cause more damage to hostile third party or scum roles than the rest of the town can do on its own. That is the reasoning behind my decisions. You may question this reasoning at your will; but it's still not your choice to make. The decision was made for the good of the town, specifically the strategic planning of our likely most powerful and useful role. If I have helped them, then really, it doesn't matter if I were lynched as a result of making such a statement. I believe that the power of a vigilante can overturn such things and make things very right. Now, I see no reason to play quid pro quo with the town, for I am town, and I have already given the town what I want to give, and I demand nothing in return, except that you ask for no further information, and understand you'll be given none unless I live, and I feel it prudent. Now Meeko, allow me to give you a bit of advice. You strike me as townie, but a bit blustery and, a bit wrong-headed here. Instead of fighting every battle, why not play this more diplomatically? What good CAN you affect? Try to pick a softer challenge. Maybe I'll even agree with you.
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Post by Askthepizzaguy on Sept 28, 2012 1:56:02 GMT -5
Pizza has played enough games that should I come to trust him as a member of town, I would trust that he puts the appropriate amount of faith in the messages. I imagine that the pm is forecasting an event or situation that Pizza will provide information for. The quality of the information will be the messenger's voucher. What the vigilante does with the information may or may not be good for town, the information is reliable. That's why I'm breaking into the normal flow of play to deliver it. Otherwise I'd just shut up and ponder it.
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Post by Askthepizzaguy on Sept 28, 2012 2:00:10 GMT -5
This reads as double speak- Or should I just go to bed? I can't wrap it Pizzaguy said he's planning on sharing more at a later date. I'm guessing that what he's already shared is meaningful to someone else who can act on it or something will happen later on that ATPG can clarify. The acting on or the clarification, should they arrive will bolster the validity of the message to ATPG if for some reason he is doubtful of the message's veracity and my faith in ATPG is such that should I feel he is being truthful and not attempting to mislead town, I would trust him to not put his trust in a message that could be a lie. What's important is that I am aware there is definitely a vigilante working on the town side, information I wouldn't normally be privy to, and that I have information useful to that role. My knowledge on this matter is absolute and I have zero doubt. That's why it's worth it to come forward. That piece of info alone is worth much more than my life.
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Post by Meeko on Sept 28, 2012 2:21:06 GMT -5
I just don't know where you guys get off. That's my biggest issue with mafia in general.
To use your scientist allegory : why do you automatically assume that I am a lay person?
To this game specifically, what makes it your call over who has what level of education?
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Post by Askthepizzaguy on Sept 28, 2012 2:26:04 GMT -5
I just don't know where you guys get off. That's my biggest issue with mafia in general. To use your scientist allegory : why do you automatically assume that I am a lay person? If you had the same information I do, you wouldn't be questioning it. If (hypothetical) I were lying and you knew it, you'd just point it out and attack me with more vigor and certainty. Therefore, you do not possess the role-based knowledge I do. I am privileged enough by my role to know my information with certainty. Therefore, you can either possess the same information as me, or, you possess less information than me. As such, if you're disagreeing with my information, you have less of it on this matter. It's really simple, and says nothing about your intelligence or persona outside of this mafia game. You really should put the knives away for a bit and try cooperating with the townies around you instead of constant attack and defensiveness.
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Post by Askthepizzaguy on Sept 28, 2012 2:29:41 GMT -5
Remember that a town will contain people who do not agree on suspects, do not agree on methods, and do not trust one another.
The situation is only exacerbated when you only discuss one or two suspects, reject everyone else's methods, and never offer anyone any benefit of the doubt.
Mafia is half blindfold chess, half diplomacy. You must play both sides to win.
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Post by Askthepizzaguy on Sept 28, 2012 2:35:17 GMT -5
Note how Pleonast is playing:
He's offered townies an olive branch and openly stated his non-townieness.
He's given us the benefit of the doubt that we won't crush him immediately and given willingly some information. Information he has not asked us to use for his own aims.
As such, he is playing the diplomacy game and his information gift is beneficial to town. I can work with someone like Pleonast even knowing his alignment may differ, because he has conducted himself in that manner.
Right now, I am pretty sure you're town, but I don't know if I can work with you. I don't see much in the way of provisional trust, cooperation, or openness beyond your honest statements of suspicion, which seem to push to the point of paranoia. I can work with the honest suspicions, but beyond that, you're not making it easy for me to operate with you as a team.
Trust is not asked for. Certainly not blind trust. Votes are not asked for. Nothing really is asked for here, but much is given. Have you nothing further to add to this except blanket paranoia?
If not, then you'll be railing against everyone for some time, ineffectively. I can't imagine that's an especially fun way to play.
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Post by Meeko on Sept 28, 2012 2:35:50 GMT -5
Pizzaguy said he's planning on sharing more at a later date. I'm guessing that what he's already shared is meaningful to someone else who can act on it or something will happen later on that ATPG can clarify. The acting on or the clarification, should they arrive will bolster the validity of the message to ATPG if for some reason he is doubtful of the message's veracity and my faith in ATPG is such that should I feel he is being truthful and not attempting to mislead town, I would trust him to not put his trust in a message that could be a lie. What's important is that I am aware there is definitely a vigilante working on the town side, information I wouldn't normally be privy to, and that I have information useful to that role. My knowledge on this matter is absolute and I have zero doubt. That's why it's worth it to come forward. That piece of info alone is worth much more than my life. No consideration for this being gastard game? I'm skeptical at next to everything in a generic mafia game. This is my first gastard game. The intersection there is ....... interesting. My knowledge on THAT matter is absolute, and I have zero doubt.
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Post by Meeko on Sept 28, 2012 2:37:50 GMT -5
Note how Pleonast is playing: He's offered townies an olive branch and openly stated his non-townieness. He's given us the benefit of the doubt that we won't crush him immediately and given willingly some information. Information he has not asked us to use for his own aims. As such, he is playing the diplomacy game and his information gift is beneficial to town. I can work with someone like Pleonast even knowing his alignment may differ, because he has conducted himself in that manner. Right now, I am pretty sure you're town, but I don't know if I can work with you. I don't see much in the way of provisional trust, cooperation, or openness beyond your honest statements of suspicion, which seem to push to the point of paranoia. I can work with the honest suspicions, but beyond that, you're not making it easy for me to operate with you as a team. Trust is not asked for. Certainly not blind trust. Votes are not asked for. Nothing really is asked for here, but much is given. Have you nothing further to add to this except blanket paranoia? If not, then you'll be railing against everyone for some time, ineffectively. I can't imagine that's an especially fun way to play. You do know that I am knee jerking right now with "Pizza is fishing up a storm". What do you say to that? You are fond of the hypothetical, what could I give you?
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Post by Askthepizzaguy on Sept 28, 2012 2:46:43 GMT -5
What's important is that I am aware there is definitely a vigilante working on the town side, information I wouldn't normally be privy to, and that I have information useful to that role. My knowledge on this matter is absolute and I have zero doubt. That's why it's worth it to come forward. That piece of info alone is worth much more than my life. No consideration for this being gastard game? No. I'm actually pretty confident on that point even though I contain no actual knowledge about whether or not this is a gastard game. Here's why: We can scare ourselves into paranoia and un-think everything, so that no ideas are valid at all, based on the possibility that the moderator is a bastard. Or, we can operate more or less normally, with a bit more open mindedness about possibilities that are unusual. If we do the first strategy, the outcome of the game is no better determined than by a random number generator. Winning wouldn't be an actual accomplishment, it would be simply luck. If we do the second, we might have fun, and are very, very likely to have actual meaningful conversations. I will bet on the sane moderator every time. I'll lose the one or two bastardly games out of several hundred normal games I play, just so I can have fun and have something worth discussing in all of them. No sense in letting an unfair setup ruin your fun. Remember that entertainment can be had even if the moderator were somehow a total jerkwad. There are no guarantees of fairness or fun, only opportunities. I know this position is frowned upon in certain circles, but nobody is here to guarantee you a win, a fair game, or even a fun time. But, if we play assuming there's no sane way to win, no fair rules, and no fun to be had, then why play?
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Post by Askthepizzaguy on Sept 28, 2012 2:52:03 GMT -5
Note how Pleonast is playing: He's offered townies an olive branch and openly stated his non-townieness. He's given us the benefit of the doubt that we won't crush him immediately and given willingly some information. Information he has not asked us to use for his own aims. As such, he is playing the diplomacy game and his information gift is beneficial to town. I can work with someone like Pleonast even knowing his alignment may differ, because he has conducted himself in that manner. Right now, I am pretty sure you're town, but I don't know if I can work with you. I don't see much in the way of provisional trust, cooperation, or openness beyond your honest statements of suspicion, which seem to push to the point of paranoia. I can work with the honest suspicions, but beyond that, you're not making it easy for me to operate with you as a team. Trust is not asked for. Certainly not blind trust. Votes are not asked for. Nothing really is asked for here, but much is given. Have you nothing further to add to this except blanket paranoia? If not, then you'll be railing against everyone for some time, ineffectively. I can't imagine that's an especially fun way to play. You do know that I am knee jerking right now with "Pizza is fishing up a storm". What do you say to that? I have not asked for or implied I needed any additional information from anyone. That makes the idea that I am fishing for such information seem a bit... random. would be the polite term. Knee jerking- I now must ask: Do you act on instinct or impluse or reflex, and then seek to rationalize it later? Or do you try to reason your way through these games? If the former, I understand and have acted that way myself at times. As I told septimus in the last game, sometimes you must "feel the force" and let it flow through you. A geeky way of saying, sometimes there is no case. Just go with who you think is scummiest. Reasons can come later or not at all. But at the same time, I can tell you that you're wrong here, on any number of levels. Your ability to use the Force has diminished, master Meeko.
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Post by Meeko on Sept 28, 2012 3:33:24 GMT -5
You do know that I am knee jerking right now with "Pizza is fishing up a storm". What do you say to that? I have not asked for or implied I needed any additional information from anyone. That makes the idea that I am fishing for such information seem a bit... random. would be the polite term. Knee jerking- I now must ask: Do you act on instinct or impluse or reflex, and then seek to rationalize it later? Or do you try to reason your way through these games? If the former, I understand and have acted that way myself at times. As I told septimus in the last game, sometimes you must "feel the force" and let it flow through you. A geeky way of saying, sometimes there is no case. Just go with who you think is scummiest. Reasons can come later or not at all. But at the same time, I can tell you that you're wrong here, on any number of levels. Your ability to use the Force has diminished, master Meeko. As I said before, as was said by someone else in a previous game, I am a dog with a bone. When I see something, I go after it. I got pleonast lynched in the last game from this approach. Why stop now? I'm not sure you can fully reason anything in Mafia, given the sheer number of unknowns. Also, I am not one to sit around and solve things. I despise people that "solve" games so that they can't be played. There is a book out that solves Connect 4. That is not playing, that is not getting out there and playing. By the time you've reasoned something all out on paper, you've missed your time to act.
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Post by KidVermicious on Sept 28, 2012 9:29:41 GMT -5
I'm away from the keyboard more than I thought I was going to be this weekend, sorry. I'll try and catch up sunday.
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Post by Rich Beckman on Sept 28, 2012 9:42:58 GMT -5
Also, a note arrived in my mailbox: "There is a role in the game which complements the town vigilante". There's further information, but I prefer not to divulge all of it at this time. But I will choose to say this: The town vigilante will have reason to be less hesitant to fire at will. Also, if you try to force further information out of me, I will go to my death keeping it a secret. I'll reveal what I will when I will, unless there's a pressing need. Why? Because it's my role so my choices are guided by information only I have. Please don't second guess me on this unless you believe I am hostile. Is it asking for further information to ask for an explanation of what it means for a role to "complement" the Town Vig? And how (or why?) would this "complement" allow the Town Vig to be less hesitant to fire at will?
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Post by sinjin on Sept 28, 2012 9:54:19 GMT -5
First off, apologies for not posting much. My husband and I are sharing one computer, and one job, and one room out in the wilderness of MD.
Second off, I did not stub my toe, nor was I infected with a virus last Night.
@pizzaguy: Are you some kind of jekyll/hyde character? YesterDay you posted mostly nonsense. ToDay you are seemingly completely rational. Please clarify: Are you saying that the town vig* should "shoot at will" because there is a "complementary role" in the game who can assure that the vig will hit a hostile player? Will this complementary role redirect the vig's shot?
@kidv: When are you going to release the merc results?
@pleo: Why are you always so surprised that your Day1 "not town" claims draw so much attention? It's disingenuous at best.That's all I have to say to you and will refrain from interacting with you as I feel your play is anti-town at best, unless and until further evidence of your true designation is revealed.
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Post by sinjin on Sept 28, 2012 10:17:06 GMT -5
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Post by Pleonast on Sept 28, 2012 10:17:43 GMT -5
Pleo is turning into ‘white noise’ Sorry if I'm repetitive, but I do not think asking a player to justify why they think their own votes help town is unreasonable. It should not be hard to complete "I think Player is hostile because..." when you're voting for that player, and refusal to do so indicates to me that the voter does not have a pro-town motivation.
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