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Day Two
Feb 9, 2013 22:58:24 GMT -5
Post by Holy Moley! on Feb 9, 2013 22:58:24 GMT -5
And here's what specifically bothers me with the case against BillMC.
My sticking point with him at the very start was that he instantly, and with complete confidence, said that Idle's statement that "Christians start with sins" contradicted his role PM. He never confirmed how the contradiction occurred, just that it did. Later on Idle admitted that there may be "exceptions" to the rules he'd laid out. Note that nobody ever claimed to be a Christian starting without sin - thus an exception to Idle's rule - unless I've missed something here.
Fast-forward a day. Ryjae asks Bill if he wants to remove his sins, and Bill claims not to have any. He doesn't claim how he got to that state; and since Bill seems to be wholly absent from this game and thus isn't here to clarify himself, the obvious answer would have to be: "well, he started without any himself, so he knows there's at least one Christian who doesn't have sin."
(The less obvious answer would be that he's received some kind of confirmation that there are other Christians out there without sin, which is pretty damn weird if one takes Idle's post as gospel. Which at this point I'm inclined to do. That, of course, doesn't preclude him from being scum, but does raise the question of what exact role would require a devil to have that specific knowledge of Christian game mechanics. At the very least it's implausible to me.)
If Bill is an - or the - exception to the "start with sin" rule, it explains how he knew Idle was wrong, it explains why he claims to have no sin today, and it means that he has to be a Christian. It also makes him your hypothetical Jesus figure, which makes a bizarre kind of sense. (If I were to choose one other player to cast in the role of Jesus, BillMC would probably be it.)
Note that I'd much rather hear all of this from Bill himself, if it's true. If it turns out that he's sat out his own lynch as a sinless Christian, it will be a sad, sad day for everybody involved.
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Day Two
Feb 9, 2013 23:03:56 GMT -5
Post by Suburban Plankton on Feb 9, 2013 23:03:56 GMT -5
And I'd still like to know what Suburban meant when he said he knew what Town had to do to win. I assume you're talking about this post: Patricia, I "think" devils are scum and christians are town. That would seem to be the case, thou as this is a Pleonast game I wouldn't be surprised if there were more than two factions, or that there are some other division besides simply 'Town/Scum' Yes. My PM is quite clear on what I must do to win...just not on how I should best go about doing that. I'm fairly certain that "kill the other guys" is always going to be 'good' for all factions, but that may not be sufficient by itself to claim a win. What I meant was exactly what I said: "My PM is quite clear on what I must do to win...just not on how I should best go about doing that." I was paraphrasing my PM: "1. You must stop the Devils from winning. You don't exactly know what that entails..." At the time I posted that, nobody had yet revealed the town win condition. I didn't want to post it verbatim, so I merely hinted at it.
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Day Two
Feb 9, 2013 23:07:03 GMT -5
Post by Holy Moley! on Feb 9, 2013 23:07:03 GMT -5
*sigh* Bills first post just said something like (paraphrasing) "Nah, I don't need you to remove my sins" He didn't explain in THAT post why. That's why I asked him Why he was declining the request? It wasn't until after that that he declared that he had no sins to cleanse.... Ah, got it. *Checks timings...* Yeah, BillMC did first refuse the request without stating why it was "unnecessary". Point withdrawn, at least regarding the specific point of why you asked him why you asked him to decline it. (Point not withdrawn regarding the "information" vote though. Even with this voting format, that feels like a really bad reason to actually vote somebody. Ask the question, certainly; vote if the answer is inadequate. But don't vote to "force information". Again, feels like a scum tactic, and usually has been in my experience.) I'm sure I had something else I wanted to post here, but it's 4AM and I'm slowly lapsing into a coma... I'm off to bed. G'night.
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Day Two
Feb 9, 2013 23:12:02 GMT -5
Post by mistervisceral on Feb 9, 2013 23:12:02 GMT -5
Note that I'd much rather hear all of this from Bill himself, if it's true. If it turns out that he's sat out his own lynch as a sinless Christian, it will be a sad, sad day for everybody involved. If you'd much rather hear something from someone then I suggest you don't spell it out for them to say~also if we lynch a sinless Christian that's a good thing right? lol jk jk About your thing on BillMc, I can see where you're coming from, sort of? Except Occam's Razor is just telling me that he's a devil trying to get away with shit by telling us he has no sins. That's what I think. Also the case on SisC sort of makes sense, but I want to see her play more before I make a judgement there~
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Day Two
Feb 9, 2013 23:40:13 GMT -5
Post by Holy Moley! on Feb 9, 2013 23:40:13 GMT -5
Note that I'd much rather hear all of this from Bill himself, if it's true. If it turns out that he's sat out his own lynch as a sinless Christian, it will be a sad, sad day for everybody involved. If you'd much rather hear something from someone then I suggest you don't spell it out for them to say~also if we lynch a sinless Christian that's a good thing right? lol jk jk About your thing on BillMc, I can see where you're coming from, sort of? Except Occam's Razor is just telling me that he's a devil trying to get away with shit by telling us he has no sins. That's what I think. Also the case on SisC sort of makes sense, but I want to see her play more before I make a judgement there~ Ok... not asleep yet. First point - I'd much rather not have to deduce stuff about my fellow Christians, assuming Bill is one. But hey, it's a game of deduction, that's what you do. At this point I'm seriously worrying if he's ok in real life. It's not like Bill to disappear for three days straight, let alone if he's the lynch leader at the time. I'd buy the Occam's Razor thing if it explained how he was so confident that Idle's statement was false at the start of Day One. Like I said at the time, if he's a devil and Idle's a Christian (which according to Ryjae is all but confirmed at this point), why does he risk outright contradicting somebody he knows is probably a townie telling the truth? He'd have to have absolute knowledge of a Christian in the game who starts with no sins. I can't say for certain that that's not the case, but it hardly sounds like the kind of specific knowledge a devil would be likely to have - not to mention the fact that no such Christian ever claimed that Idle was wrong, even though they'd have every reason to do so. Only Bill did. Ergo, the most likely explanation is that Bill IS that hypothetical sinless Christian. I think that that's the simplest solution based on what we know. But again... can't confirm it with no Bill here!
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Day Two
Feb 10, 2013 2:12:08 GMT -5
Post by Silver Jan on Feb 10, 2013 2:12:08 GMT -5
What is interesting here is not the vote, but SisC's theory about Cardinal Sins. It doesn't really make sense to me, and doesn't seem to match my PM very well at all. Vote: SisC [/color] [/quote] I tend to agree actually. My cardinal sin is one that you couldn't commit accidentally, as Sister C seems to suggest (you could fulfill the prerequisites for doing it, but to actually go and do it would require a conscious action). Now it is possible that for some people, their cardinal sin is one that is just triggered without their intervention, but actually Sister C's post seems to suggest that all sins must be one of the Cardinal sins, whereas the existence of the initial sins, and Idles hint that lynching a townie is a sin seems to disagree. vote Sister Coyote [/quote] Yes, yes, yes! This in no way resembles what I have either. You don't receive more Cardinal sins you get sins. Vote SisC
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Day Two
Feb 10, 2013 2:52:14 GMT -5
Post by LightFoot on Feb 10, 2013 2:52:14 GMT -5
I tend to agree actually. My cardinal sin is one that you couldn't commit accidentally, as Sister C seems to suggest (you could fulfill the prerequisites for doing it, but to actually go and do it would require a conscious action). Now it is possible that for some people, their cardinal sin is one that is just triggered without their intervention, but actually Sister C's post seems to suggest that all sins must be one of the Cardinal sins, whereas the existence of the initial sins, and Idles hint that lynching a townie is a sin seems to disagree. vote Sister Coyote Yes, yes, yes! This in no way resembles what I have either. You don't receive more Cardinal sins you get sins. Vote SisCUMMM Jan --- SisC was responding to your idea about gaining the sin of sloth- remember?
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Day Two
Feb 10, 2013 3:33:32 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on Feb 10, 2013 3:33:32 GMT -5
Can ANY Lightfoot votor answer why in hell a scummy Lightfoot would have ever acted in this fashion? Anybody? Yup. Oh, you mean again? No.
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Day Two
Feb 10, 2013 3:49:55 GMT -5
Post by Silver Jan on Feb 10, 2013 3:49:55 GMT -5
Yes, yes, yes! This in no way resembles what I have either. You don't receive more Cardinal sins you get sins. Vote SisCUMMM Jan --- SisC was responding to your idea about gaining the sin of sloth- remember? That wasn't what I was doing. I meant that if you started off with the Cardinal Sin of Sloth and you didn't vote you would gain a SIN.
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Day Two
Feb 10, 2013 3:50:03 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on Feb 10, 2013 3:50:03 GMT -5
SisC was another who defended Patricia. This strikes me as exactly the type of defense a fellow scum might make. A defense they could retract later. SisC was hit by RL, so we're not sure where her vote would have been had she been around, but she ended up voting NoLynch. Extrapolating from what we know, and from Jan's example, it seems to me one could earn a Cardinal Sin by multiple unforgiven instances of a particular Sin. E.g., You don't vote Days One and Two; suddenly, you have Sloth in addition to any initial Cardinal Sin you might or might not have had. Speaking of which: vote: no lynch As a placeholder. Someone discussed Jesus and Mother Theresa; does anyone think we might have a Sin Eater? What is interesting here is not the vote, but SisC's theory about Cardinal Sins. It doesn't really make sense to me, and doesn't seem to match my PM very well at all. Vote: SisC [/color] [/quote] I haven't finished reading the thread, but this looks like a really good catch, Tex. I think if Sis's PM looked ANYTHING like mine she wouldn't have made this statement. This is more compelling to me than the Wagon Of Wombat. Unvote: Wombat99 Vote: SisterCoyote
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Day Two
Feb 10, 2013 3:58:07 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on Feb 10, 2013 3:58:07 GMT -5
Of course BillMC not accepting the sin-remover's offer in and of itself was suspicious....To suggest otherwise makes me more suspicious of you. I don't know about your Role PM, but mine specifically says Someone not wanting to remove their sins is suspicious. Again replying as I go, so please pardon if this has been addressed, but... what? Bill already claimed to have no sins. His refusal of Ryjae's offer makes perfect sense in the context of that previous claim. If you were already suspicious of him, fine, but finding him scummy based solely on the refusal is weird. And smudging Moley for calling you out on it is weirder. I'm starting to see what Moley has been on about with you.
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Day Two
Feb 10, 2013 4:11:52 GMT -5
Post by LightFoot on Feb 10, 2013 4:11:52 GMT -5
UMMM Jan --- SisC was responding to your idea about gaining the sin of sloth- remember? That wasn't what I was doing. I meant that if you started off with the Cardinal Sin of Sloth and you didn't vote you would gain a SIN. on re-read that is what you were saying- I remembered it different
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Colby11
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Day Two
Feb 10, 2013 4:37:22 GMT -5
Post by Colby11 on Feb 10, 2013 4:37:22 GMT -5
I agree with the SisC case. It does seem like she is reaching for straws, coupled with her No Lynch votes today that I hate
Vote: Vote SisC
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Day Two
Feb 10, 2013 6:14:31 GMT -5
Post by guiri on Feb 10, 2013 6:14:31 GMT -5
SisterCoyote is just one vote behind Bill. Taking a look at the context of her post: #283 Patricia said she didn't start with a cardinal sin but wasn't sure if she'd committed a sin during gameplay #287 Suburban asks Patricia if she's referring to committing sins or cardinal sins #288 SilverJan quotes both posts as odd, asks how it's possible to commit a cardinal sin if she doesn't have any. Patricia could only commit a "sin" #289 Lightfoot quotes SilverJan suggesting Patricia has additional info #290 SilverJan explains that players whose cardinal sin is sloth, for example, commit the cardinal sin of sloth but earn a new "sin" doing so #291 Lightfoot clarifies that she was suggesting Patricia knew more about sins than she was letting on, not SilverJan #292 Suburban doesn't understand an unspecified part at the end of SilverJan's explanation #293 SisterCoyote posited that a player may unknowingly earn a new cardinal sin by meeting the activation requirements of that cardinal sin such as not voting two Days in a row to earn sloth
I can't tell if SisterCoyote is building on SilverJan's example to explain what Patricia was hinting at, is showing a misunderstanding of sins and cardinal sins, is showing a lack of knowledge about sins and cardinal sins, is showing knowledge of additional information, or a mixture of these and would like to hear an explanation. While I also voted no lynch to avoid a penalty, I am curious about her fear of earning a sin for not voting which seems to be a major concern for her and is linked to her comment: - when she posited gaining sloth as a cardinal sin for not voting she placed a placeholder vote - in early D2 she voted no lynch to avoid a penalty, obviously aware of the rules - later she explained the no lynch vote as protection against the off chance not voting is a sin
Dizzy, you're voting for both SisterCoyote and Bill, do you have a preference?
SilverJan, you're voting for Bill, SisterCoyote and wombat too, do you have a preference?
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Day Two
Feb 10, 2013 7:42:06 GMT -5
Post by Silver Jan on Feb 10, 2013 7:42:06 GMT -5
SisterCoyote is just one vote behind Bill. Taking a look at the context of her post: #283 Patricia said she didn't start with a cardinal sin but wasn't sure if she'd committed a sin during gameplay #287 Suburban asks Patricia if she's referring to committing sins or cardinal sins #288 SilverJan quotes both posts as odd, asks how it's possible to commit a cardinal sin if she doesn't have any. Patricia could only commit a "sin" #289 Lightfoot quotes SilverJan suggesting Patricia has additional info #290 SilverJan explains that players whose cardinal sin is sloth, for example, commit the cardinal sin of sloth but earn a new "sin" doing so #291 Lightfoot clarifies that she was suggesting Patricia knew more about sins than she was letting on, not SilverJan #292 Suburban doesn't understand an unspecified part at the end of SilverJan's explanation #293 SisterCoyote posited that a player may unknowingly earn a new cardinal sin by meeting the activation requirements of that cardinal sin such as not voting two Days in a row to earn sloth I can't tell if SisterCoyote is building on SilverJan's example to explain what Patricia was hinting at, is showing a misunderstanding of sins and cardinal sins, is showing a lack of knowledge about sins and cardinal sins, is showing knowledge of additional information, or a mixture of these and would like to hear an explanation. While I also voted no lynch to avoid a penalty, I am curious about her fear of earning a sin for not voting which seems to be a major concern for her and is linked to her comment: - when she posited gaining sloth as a cardinal sin for not voting she placed a placeholder vote - in early D2 she voted no lynch to avoid a penalty, obviously aware of the rules - later she explained the no lynch vote as protection against the off chance not voting is a sin Dizzy, you're voting for both SisterCoyote and Bill, do you have a preference? SilverJan, you're voting for Bill, SisterCoyote and wombat too, do you have a preference? I have a preference for SisC at the moment so I will watch the game carefully and see if I need to change my votes at all.
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Day Two
Feb 10, 2013 8:21:53 GMT -5
Post by wombat99 on Feb 10, 2013 8:21:53 GMT -5
Unvote: all
Starting over and rereading with a fresh eye.
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Day Two
Feb 10, 2013 8:45:02 GMT -5
Post by dizzymrslizzy on Feb 10, 2013 8:45:02 GMT -5
Someone not wanting to remove their sins is suspicious. Again replying as I go, so please pardon if this has been addressed, but... what? Bill already claimed to have no sins. His refusal of Ryjae's offer makes perfect sense in the context of that previous claim. If you were already suspicious of him, fine, but finding him scummy based solely on the refusal is weird. And smudging Moley for calling you out on it is weirder. I'm starting to see what Moley has been on about with you. Kid Please Re-read my post #329.....I explained there that both you and Holy have the timeline wrong. (Holy recanted that he was wrong on that point, and I'm a bit surprised that as you caught up you didn't as well) - Bill posted that he was rejecting Ryjae's offer WITHOUT claiming he was sinless.
- I asked him why
- Bill Posted again almost 24 hours later saying he didn't have a sin.
Again, someone not wanting to remove their sins is suspicious. I want to know a good reason why they don't want their sins removed. The qualification that Bill has no sins, is a valid reason for not wanting to accept the offer, if you believe that Bill is a Christian that has no sins. I'm still doubting his entire story, which is why I have a vote on him. I wish he'd come back and do 2 things. 1- Defend himself 2- Throw out some real suspicions of his own, aside from the 3 OMGUS votes he's thrown out with NO explanation as to why he's voting any of the three.
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Day Two
Feb 10, 2013 8:47:08 GMT -5
Post by dizzymrslizzy on Feb 10, 2013 8:47:08 GMT -5
I too prefer SisC over Bill toDay. While I'm not comfortable with Bill and his claims at all, I think SisC's slip is a better "tell" than anything else out there.
And I'm going to
Unvote: Bill
to support my preference of SisC.
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Day Two
Feb 10, 2013 8:51:59 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on Feb 10, 2013 8:51:59 GMT -5
Again replying as I go, so please pardon if this has been addressed, but... what? Bill already claimed to have no sins. His refusal of Ryjae's offer makes perfect sense in the context of that previous claim. If you were already suspicious of him, fine, but finding him scummy based solely on the refusal is weird. And smudging Moley for calling you out on it is weirder. I'm starting to see what Moley has been on about with you. Kid Please Re-read my post #329.....I explained there that both you and Holy have the timeline wrong. (Holy recanted that he was wrong on that point, and I'm a bit surprised that as you caught up you didn't as well) - Bill posted that he was rejecting Ryjae's offer WITHOUT claiming he was sinless.
- I asked him why
- Bill Posted again almost 24 hours later saying he didn't have a sin.
Again, someone not wanting to remove their sins is suspicious. I want to know a good reason why they don't want their sins removed. The qualification that Bill has no sins, is a valid reason for not wanting to accept the offer, if you believe that Bill is a Christian that has no sins. I'm still doubting his entire story, which is why I have a vote on him. I wish he'd come back and do 2 things. 1- Defend himself 2- Throw out some real suspicions of his own, aside from the 3 OMGUS votes he's thrown out with NO explanation as to why he's voting any of the three. Well, that's exactly what I said, isn't it? If you're doubting the entire story that's one thing. I misunderstood you to say that you were doubting him solely based on the refusal. My bad. Bill travels internationally, and at short notice is my understanding. He may not be able to get on line to defend himself right now.
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Day Two
Feb 10, 2013 9:15:36 GMT -5
Post by scáthach on Feb 10, 2013 9:15:36 GMT -5
I would prefer not to lynch Bill given that ryjae is suggesting a mechanism via which he could be confirmed either way.
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Hockey Monkey!
Borogrove
This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker over who killed who.
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Day Two
Feb 10, 2013 9:48:44 GMT -5
Post by Hockey Monkey! on Feb 10, 2013 9:48:44 GMT -5
I can't believe we missed the Sister C slip up till now. I can definitely see a case for her being scum based on her comments about gaining a CS.
Vote: Sister Coyote
I really wish Bill would speak up. Between him and Sister C, I'd prefer a Sister C lynch today to see how things shake out and give him a chance to confirm himself via ryjae.
unvote Bill Mc
I'm still not crazy about wombat's plan to lynch sinless Christians, but I'm not sure that it was scum motivated. If I were scum, I would have backed down from it after a couple of criticisms.
unvote wombat
I'm leaving my vote on Suburban Plankton because I haven't heard a good reason to unvote him at this time.
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Day Two
Feb 10, 2013 10:17:01 GMT -5
Post by wombat99 on Feb 10, 2013 10:17:01 GMT -5
The Confessor is similar to the role I had in All-Stars. I was a protector, but if I protected a non-Town player inadvertently, I died. It is a hard choice - risk dying and taking your information to the grave, or reveal what you know and why you might turn up dead.
I agree that Bill should not be lynched Today and we should wait and see what happens with RyJae at EOD.
RyJae, (or Idle or Bill), does the message that the player receives give any details about what happens if the offer is accepted or declined? Would Bill have known anything about the consequences of accepting or declining when he posted about declining the offer?
And just for clarification - RyJae, is this correct? You send the message during the Day, the player has to respond to Pleo by EOD, then you are either dead at EOD (if your target was a Devil and accepted) or you get your response of 'declined' or 'accepted' shortly after EOD?
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Day Two
Feb 10, 2013 10:48:36 GMT -5
Post by ryjae on Feb 10, 2013 10:48:36 GMT -5
Yes, and no clue other than they get an offer to cleanse them I really don't know the exact nature of the offer. And yes yesterDay I got the resulting PM within minutes of EOD (actually went back to EOD timestamp then my PM from Pleo timestamp)
I as well would rather wait on BillMc.... I know he is busy judging from what others have said about travel on the fly so I am just hoping he can get back to us before EOD. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- And yes I am on the SisC bandwagon, because the lack of information is far greater with her than it was with Lightfoot. As I said in my vote and my discussion on Lightfoot the A/B was weak but it was the best I seen. And sticking with my lack of information person getting the vote
unvote Lightfoot vote SisterCoyote
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Day Two
Feb 10, 2013 11:45:09 GMT -5
Post by Suburban Plankton on Feb 10, 2013 11:45:09 GMT -5
Just chiming in briefly, as it's a busy weekend, but I like the argument for a SisC lynch.
vote Sister Coyote
I am just a wee bit concerned that catching 2 Scum in 2 Days because both made mistakes concerning Cardinal Sins falls into the "too easy" category...but I'm willing to go with it for now.
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Day Two
Feb 10, 2013 13:00:48 GMT -5
Post by BillMc on Feb 10, 2013 13:00:48 GMT -5
So rather being lynched there was a sudden rush to fillibuster Hockey & Visceral #128 Hockey Monkey states Visceral is Christian. #146 "I can't let someone I know to be Christian be lynched because he's playing like an idiot." #157 "I am 100% positive that he is Christian." Unvote: mr visceral for the moment. Visceral didn't feel the need to claim, but Hockey has made a judgement that Visceral is more important to the town than she is. Of course, one way Hockey would know that Visceral is Christian, if they were masons, but also if Hockey were scum As for Laurie's vote in #145 Hallelujah is a scummy ping? yeah right - this is a real weak vote Vote: lauriern Dizzy's explanation in #190 is as weak as the original vote, so I'm happy with my vote. Ryjae, as I stated before, I have no sins to be removed, I never had any to start with, and never will have any. If he is Christian, then he has no reason not to accept. If he is a Devil and accepts he will be exposed when you die at Dusk. If he declines he will be highly suspect and should be lynched. So damned if I, damned if I don't. Indeed, Ryjae is probably damned either way as well. In a game with manipulators we now have a public actor-target pair - so the scum could redirect the action to one of themselves - which of course, would kill Ryjae and throw suspicion upon me. So if there is a scum with a day redirection power - you are dead at dusk if I accept. So the safest move is for me not to accept. Unvote: idle for now Idle, in relation to the underlined part of the quote, will you confirm or deny that the PM you received contained more than just the offer to remove sin - you don't need to say what. If he is a Christian and accepts the offer, at lynch the lynch leader dies. I perish toMorrow morning by the hands of the Devils and with that you know Bill and Idle can be trusted. If he a Devil and accepts and I die @ lynch then you know to lynch him toMorrrow. If he declines then nothing is gained by this gambit and I cannot see that being a Christian move. So you think that your role is so important that you would be the scum NK target - over Idle, over Hockey, over Visceral. The problem I have with your role is that it is black and white - either Christian or Devil, but from the rules, it is quite clear that there are 3rd parties - "other powers" You, one of the Great Powers of Light, have come to stop this Apocalypse. Your strength is not enough to prevail alone, yet you know there is not unanimity among your peers. For some have already fallen to the Enemy and perhaps some have sworn fealty to Other Powers. What happens if you make the offer to a 3rd party? remove their sins? or die? can you distinguish between town and 3rd parties? Furthermore, it appears that you don't actually know what the result will be if you try and confess the sins of a Devil Nothing in my PM says they are exposed, it just says pretty much bad things will happen if they accept and I try to remove a sin from a Devil. That is my worry EOD the lynchee is dead and I am also dead and the Christians sit aorund and wonder why. I wouldn't have said anything if BillMc removed his vote from Idle after confirming in this thread he got the same PM. I thought that was a nifty sneaky way of confirming Idle wasn't lying. But... he didn't. And that leaves me a bit concerned if ya know what I mean. For all you know it may result in you having to make a recruit (join the devils) or die decision. So all in all, I am going to stick with my original decision of declining Ryjae's offer. a) I have no sins b) It prevents any possible manipulation by a a redirector or other
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Day Two
Feb 10, 2013 13:36:21 GMT -5
Post by Holy Moley! on Feb 10, 2013 13:36:21 GMT -5
So rather being lynched there was a sudden rush to fillibuster Hockey & Visceral #128 Hockey Monkey states Visceral is Christian. #146 "I can't let someone I know to be Christian be lynched because he's playing like an idiot." #157 "I am 100% positive that he is Christian." Unvote: mr visceral [/color] for the moment. Visceral didn't feel the need to claim, but Hockey has made a judgement that Visceral is more important to the town than she is. Of course, one way Hockey would know that Visceral is Christian, if they were masons, but also if Hockey were scum As for Laurie's vote in #145 Hallelujah is a scummy ping? yeah right - this is a real weak vote Vote: lauriern [/color] Dizzy's explanation in #190 is as weak as the original vote, so I'm happy with my vote. Ryjae, as I stated before, I have no sins to be removed, I never had any to start with, and never will have any. So damned if I, damned if I don't. Indeed, Ryjae is probably damned either way as well. In a game with manipulators we now have a public actor-target pair - so the scum could redirect the action to one of themselves - which of course, would kill Ryjae and throw suspicion upon me. So if there is a scum with a day redirection power - you are dead at dusk if I accept. So the safest move is for me not to accept. Unvote: idle [/color] for now Idle, in relation to the underlined part of the quote, will you confirm or deny that the PM you received contained more than just the offer to remove sin - you don't need to say what. So you think that your role is so important that you would be the scum NK target - over Idle, over Hockey, over Visceral. The problem I have with your role is that it is black and white - either Christian or Devil, but from the rules, it is quite clear that there are 3rd parties - "other powers" What happens if you make the offer to a 3rd party? remove their sins? or die? can you distinguish between town and 3rd parties? Furthermore, it appears that you don't actually know what the result will be if you try and confess the sins of a Devil Nothing in my PM says they are exposed, it just says pretty much bad things will happen if they accept and I try to remove a sin from a Devil. That is my worry EOD the lynchee is dead and I am also dead and the Christians sit aorund and wonder why. I wouldn't have said anything if BillMc removed his vote from Idle after confirming in this thread he got the same PM. I thought that was a nifty sneaky way of confirming Idle wasn't lying. But... he didn't. And that leaves me a bit concerned if ya know what I mean. For all you know it may result in you having to make a recruit (join the devils) or die decision. So all in all, I am going to stick with my original decision of declining Ryjae's offer. a) I have no sins b) It prevents any possible manipulation by a a redirector or other [/quote] One significant point: if you're worried about a devil manipulator, we just killed one. The question then becomes: do you want to take the risk of a second devil manipulator with the specific ability to redirect Ryjae's role onto somebody else if you take the offer, against what I see is a near-certainty of your own lynch if you decline?
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Day Two
Feb 10, 2013 13:36:38 GMT -5
Post by Mahaloth on Feb 10, 2013 13:36:38 GMT -5
I also agree with the Sisc votes.
Unvote all
Vote SisC
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Day Two
Feb 10, 2013 13:50:50 GMT -5
Post by scáthach on Feb 10, 2013 13:50:50 GMT -5
So all in all, I am going to stick with my original decision of declining Ryjae's offer. a) I have no sins b) It prevents any possible manipulation by a a redirector or other Nope, don't buy it. Worrying about manipulation seems like an awful reach frankly for something that confirm you. You say you have no sins to cleanse, but surely it would do you no harm to have them cleansed anyway? I thought you were town until now, because stating that you had no sins in contradiction to Idle's early certainty that all Christians had sin was ballsy and seemed counter intuitive to do as scum. This though, this I just can't parse with townie motivations. vote BillMc
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Day Two
Feb 10, 2013 13:58:27 GMT -5
Post by BillMc on Feb 10, 2013 13:58:27 GMT -5
One significant point: if you're worried about a devil manipulator, we just killed one. The question then becomes: do you want to take the risk of a second devil manipulator with the specific ability to redirect Ryjae's role onto somebody else if you take the offer, against what I see is a near-certainty of your own lynch if you decline? Yes, I can live with that risk.
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Hockey Monkey!
Borogrove
This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker over who killed who.
Posts: 371
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Day Two
Feb 10, 2013 14:13:31 GMT -5
Post by Hockey Monkey! on Feb 10, 2013 14:13:31 GMT -5
One significant point: if you're worried about a devil manipulator, we just killed one. The question then becomes: do you want to take the risk of a second devil manipulator with the specific ability to redirect Ryjae's role onto somebody else if you take the offer, against what I see is a near-certainty of your own lynch if you decline? Yes, I can live with that risk. OK Vote: Bill Mc again. We've killed one Devil Manipulator. It's possible that they could have another, but is it probable? I'll wager not.
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