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Day One
Nov 16, 2007 18:37:19 GMT -5
Post by Boozahol Squid, P.I. on Nov 16, 2007 18:37:19 GMT -5
Cor! While usually a day at work doesn't hinder my mafia playing, today was busy... I come back into the thread and find six pages of votification and Governor Scum Rugger already in office. I'm thrilled by Sinjin's temporary vote for me: I'll be counting on your support in my future political career. I'm actually quite fine with Santo as governor for now, but the biggest snarking scumtell I've seen so far is Pleo's plan. It seems like taking that plan into action will empower swift, early day action. The scum's ability to organize themselves efficiently makes any sort of quick ations favor them seriously: the measured tread of logic is our best defense against them (excepting the Blade Runner, of course). vote: Pleonast
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Day One
Nov 16, 2007 18:48:37 GMT -5
Post by sinjin on Nov 16, 2007 18:48:37 GMT -5
1. who is this we you speak of in point one. This is how I am voting. Vote in a similar fashion or not. Your choice. 2. I personally think that we should be getting rid of those people who haven't shown up (starting to understand the thinking behind my system?) 3. Did you actually use sha? If you did you just made my week. ;D (this entire post was just to get to point three) Ok, you're right, you're just saying that's how you're going to vote as I look back. This just surprises me a little based on FF where folks were allowed to lurk forever. I thought it was a mod job to either kill or replace lurkers, based completely on my one game at mafiascum. And yes I did actually use sha. My gtalk sig is "Just sha me now." And my family all say it now. So, yeah, we're geeks.
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Day One
Nov 16, 2007 19:08:25 GMT -5
Post by episodeofblonde on Nov 16, 2007 19:08:25 GMT -5
I understand NAF's frustration with people not showing up, but using a lynch on a lurker seems again, like a strategy to eliminate thinking and analysis and make everyone anxious about post counts rather than what people are saying. I think leaving it to the august Mod's discretion if lurkers/non-posters should be replaced is fine in the early going.
I think trying to systematise voting is simply not going to work, and could easily backfire. I know that NAF likes to put the pressure on, and that's good, but this is threatening to dominate the discussion now that Santo Guv'nor is in office (I know, I know, I'm not helping).
Overly carefully parsing other's posts has also not proven terribly effective in the past. Townies are more likely to post without thinking too carefully, since we've nothing to hide. It's certainly worthwhile to notice if someone seems to make a lot of 'slips' but one minor linguistic quirk is not necessarily worth electrocuting someone for.
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Day One
Nov 16, 2007 19:12:21 GMT -5
Post by sinjin on Nov 16, 2007 19:12:21 GMT -5
[oog]I just want to add that my previous statement was not meant as a crit. of FF modding. I loved it, totally from start to finish and just wished I didn't have to leave so soon. You and Kat were great mods. [/oog]
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Death By Irony
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Day One
Nov 16, 2007 19:18:32 GMT -5
Post by Death By Irony on Nov 16, 2007 19:18:32 GMT -5
The scum's ability to organize themselves efficiently makes any sort of quick ations favor them seriously: the measured tread of logic is our best defense against them (excepting the Blade Runner, of course). But the scum can't actually plan during the day and they wouldn't want to do something that would obviously give them away. I agree that Pleonast's plan isn't great, but I'm not of the mind that he proposed it out of nefarious motivations.
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Day One
Nov 16, 2007 19:20:29 GMT -5
Post by Drain Bead on Nov 16, 2007 19:20:29 GMT -5
The interesting thing about having to elect a Guv the first Day is that it skips that annoying first few pages where everyone gets into the argument about random voting. Nice mechanic--I've never seen a game that didn't get into that in some way or another. It almost did here, with one post complaining about people random voting for Guv, but that never picked up steam. Awesome.
I also think that Day One is WAY too early to talk about lurkers, and it's a little anti-town to be obsessed with weeding them out. Look at the last game. On Day One, when I was scum, I made a post about midway through, calling out those who had been posting very little. I went back and looked at it during Night Zero of this game, because I was curious. The thread closed before I could get to posting my results, but it was interesting...of the five people with the lowest post counts, all five of them were town, with two power roles (although neither of them technically KNEW they had power roles). Lurking early isn't necessarily a scum strategy--it's actually best for scum to crowd early days with noise, so that people have to filter through a bunch of crap when they're looking back and trying to gain information from the first Day.
Because of that, I'm going to throw down a preliminary vote for NAF.
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Day One
Nov 16, 2007 19:22:38 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Nov 16, 2007 19:22:38 GMT -5
The interesting thing about having to elect a Guv the first Day is that it skips that annoying first few pages where everyone gets into the argument about random voting. Nice mechanic--I've never seen a game that didn't get into that in some way or another. It almost did here, with one post complaining about people random voting for Guv, but that never picked up steam. Awesome. I also think that Day One is WAY too early to talk about lurkers, and it's a little anti-town to be obsessed with weeding them out. Look at the last game. On Day One, when I was scum, I made a post about midway through, calling out those who had been posting very little. I went back and looked at it during Night Zero of this game, because I was curious. The thread closed before I could get to posting my results, but it was interesting...of the five people with the lowest post counts, all five of them were town, with two power roles (although neither of them technically KNEW they had power roles). Lurking early isn't necessarily a scum strategy--it's actually best for scum to crowd early days with noise, so that people have to filter through a bunch of crap when they're looking back and trying to gain information from the first Day. Because of that, I'm going to throw down a preliminary vote for NAF. So you vote for me because you misunderstand a voting system that I am planning on using, and disagree that lurking is more of a problem in the early game then it is in the later game? Interesting choice.
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Day One
Nov 16, 2007 19:40:36 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Nov 16, 2007 19:40:36 GMT -5
Well I am off, and probably will be gone all weekend (I know you will all miss me ). Since I seem to be the front runner for lynching at this time I just want to have everyone step back and ask why. Rugger, Pleo, and myself have all gotten the most attention. Santo is our Gov (a bad place to be) and I suspect that either myself, Pleo, or Santo will be lynched today if the town doesn't take a second to stop and think. Why is anything any of us has said scummy? Frankly I am not sure why Santo is on the list, but he is Gov so people must not have liked him much. Beyond that, don't lynch me before Monday when I get back. I would like to be present at my own demise.
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Day One
Nov 16, 2007 19:43:54 GMT -5
Post by Drain Bead on Nov 16, 2007 19:43:54 GMT -5
The interesting thing about having to elect a Guv the first Day is that it skips that annoying first few pages where everyone gets into the argument about random voting. Nice mechanic--I've never seen a game that didn't get into that in some way or another. It almost did here, with one post complaining about people random voting for Guv, but that never picked up steam. Awesome. I also think that Day One is WAY too early to talk about lurkers, and it's a little anti-town to be obsessed with weeding them out. Look at the last game. On Day One, when I was scum, I made a post about midway through, calling out those who had been posting very little. I went back and looked at it during Night Zero of this game, because I was curious. The thread closed before I could get to posting my results, but it was interesting...of the five people with the lowest post counts, all five of them were town, with two power roles (although neither of them technically KNEW they had power roles). Lurking early isn't necessarily a scum strategy--it's actually best for scum to crowd early days with noise, so that people have to filter through a bunch of crap when they're looking back and trying to gain information from the first Day. Because of that, I'm going to throw down a preliminary vote for NAF. So you vote for me because you misunderstand a voting system that I am planning on using, and disagree that lurking is more of a problem in the early game then it is in the later game? Interesting choice. I think you're missing the point. The vast majority of the "problem" lurkers are town. I don't want to fry town, I want to fry scum. I dislike the fact that you are espousing a strategy that I think is more likely to fry town than not. I think that those who want to fry folks who might be town just to prove a point are scummy. I vote for those I think are most likely to be scum, and so far that's you. Don't like it? Suggest someone who might be more likely to be scum than you are, and don't base it just on the fact that they haven't posted yet.
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Day One
Nov 16, 2007 19:46:33 GMT -5
Post by Drain Bead on Nov 16, 2007 19:46:33 GMT -5
Santo is our Gov (a bad place to be) and I suspect that either myself, Pleo, or Santo will be lynched today if the town doesn't take a second to stop and think. Why is anything any of us has said scummy? Frankly I am not sure why Santo is on the list, but he is Gov so people must not have liked him much. Didn't see this post when I was posting my last one. I, for one, voted for Rugger because I thought he would be the best one for the job out of those who were leading the vote count--something tells me that a little flexibility might be good for a Guv to have. I did also engage in a little Gambler's Fallacy, assuming that he was more likely to be town because he's been scum so damn much lately. ;D
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Day One
Nov 16, 2007 19:47:09 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Nov 16, 2007 19:47:09 GMT -5
FRIDAY NIGHT VOTE COUNT
I probably won't be on much if at all tomorrow (Saturday) until fairly late in the evening - my daughter has a dance class, and then I have a rehearsal, and then I have a bridal shower (isn't it great that those are going co-ed these days? I mean, just awesome?). Have fun!
NAF1138 (2) - Hal Briston, drainbead Pleonast (1) - Diomedes Santo Rugger (1) - Death by Irony
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Day One
Nov 16, 2007 19:55:03 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Nov 16, 2007 19:55:03 GMT -5
So you vote for me because you misunderstand a voting system that I am planning on using, and disagree that lurking is more of a problem in the early game then it is in the later game? Interesting choice. I think you're missing the point. The vast majority of the "problem" lurkers are town. I don't want to fry town, I want to fry scum. I dislike the fact that you are espousing a strategy that I think is more likely to fry town than not. I think that those who want to fry folks who might be town just to prove a point are scummy. I vote for those I think are most likely to be scum, and so far that's you. Don't like it? Suggest someone who might be more likely to be scum than you are, and don't base it just on the fact that they haven't posted yet. Damn me and my not being able to leave for the weeked without responding. No one WANTS to fry town. But this is not about what we want, it is about what we need. We need to get the people who are not talking, to talk. We need to figure out as much as we can about the setup as fast as we can. We need to eventually catch scum. We don't win the game by catching scum early, we win the game by being able to figure out what the game is and then figuring out how to catch scum from there. What we need is information. You propose that we vote for the person we think is scummiest, and you voted for me. You are wrong. (I know you dont believe me, but you are.) If you keep using your method you will continue to be wrong and we will lose the game. I will not propose a second choice instead of me. I don't know any better then you do right now, and this isn't that type of witch hunt. I will propose you posit a different theory about how we should go about lynching on these first few Days. Your method has no result but to kill a colonist who is adding information to the game. My method is already less dangerous.
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Day One
Nov 16, 2007 20:47:22 GMT -5
Post by hazelnutcoffee on Nov 16, 2007 20:47:22 GMT -5
Er.... I apologize for my tardiness. For some reason I'd gotten it into my head that the game wasn't going to start until Friday. I see that the Guv has already been elected. Again, sorry for not participating during the first 24 hours. Won't happen again. And I see the whole "lurking as scum tell" discussion has come up again as well. My personal opinion is that outright lurking is usually more a sign of real-life issues; IME scum tend to try to blend in by posting enough so they don't get called out. IME, anyway, which is admittedly limited. I have to run, but I'll be at home most of tomorrow, so hopefully I'll be able to catch up with this monstrosity of a thread.
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Day One
Nov 16, 2007 22:34:18 GMT -5
Post by Pleonast on Nov 16, 2007 22:34:18 GMT -5
I'm actually quite fine with Santo as governor for now, but the biggest snarking scumtell I've seen so far is Pleo's plan. It seems like taking that plan into action will empower swift, early day action. The scum's ability to organize themselves efficiently makes any sort of quick ations favor them seriously: the measured tread of logic is our best defense against them (excepting the Blade Runner, of course). Think about it a little more. The two reasons I suggested the elect-before-electrocute plan: 1) Removes the WIFOM of the Governor's office. 2) Gives us an extra 24 hours each Day, except the first. Those are both pro-Colony, correct? These must be weighed against the cons: 1) Day One choice is very short. 2) Death reveals may change our deliberations. These are negatives. Do the pros outweight the cons. I don't think they do, but that's obviously a matter of opinion. You think the cons are too negative. Fine, we disagree on that point. No need to rehash the arguments, it's clear the Colony doesn't want to implement the plan, so that's that. Yet now you're voting me for because I suggested a course of action and advocated it. So much for trying to encourage Colonists to be open with their thinking, if it means getting the chair if the consensus ends up against their ideas.
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RoOsh
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Day One
Nov 16, 2007 23:21:40 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Nov 16, 2007 23:21:40 GMT -5
Okay, I'm back (Just as an FYI, I've got a very awkward schedule that comes and goes, so I don't consistently post at certain times, EXCEPT for nights. I usually am around at midnight EST, and that's when the majority of my posts will come in. Otherwise, it comes and goes in spurts, this will last until Dec. 15th or so, until all my exams and EMT stuff is finished up, just an FYI. But i Always try to follow the thread and stay active. But still). Now. Onto the comments (since I didn't get to post during the day). Wow, so that's the Roosh I keep hearing about. Is she always like that, or is that an extra-caffeinated version? I am a dude. I have a little icon, and I try to keep my picture masculine too. I always get annoyed at people who correct other's genders (cuz I thought it was stupid), and then I read my name and the "she" and I went "MOTHERFUCKER!" But i was smiling. So it's all good. But remember: Roosh has a Penis. He is a Dude. He is Awesome. Look at his Icon if you forget his Gender. Roooooosh. I just like saying my name. Anyways. Onto more serious matters. (and to answer your Q: My posting style varies between either LONG massive posts (when I have to play catchup/share multiple ideas), or i like short rapid posts after one another to differentiate between ideas/thoughts, etc. There are fans of both styles, so this game I guess I'll just vary between the two. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Roosh, while I'm glad to see that you're making your suspicions public, I'd like to point out that there have only been two posters who have stated new or radical ideas, and you've EoSed both of them. If we discourage people from making their ideas public, we may miss the best idea, one that may clinch the game for us. Pleo and NAF are the two who I'm inclined to watch after the election hors d'Å“uvres. I will likely throw a vote in one direction or the other within a Day or so. Why? Are you trying to send a message that posting ideas should be discouraged? Okay. The first time i was like (' ), the second time i'm just like (-_-). I got the first "You hate america' post way back in the Day, and I see you did it again (thanks for that term btw, i like it, Cookies). But here's the thing. There is a KEY difference. I am not voicing suspicion at NEW ideas. I'm voicing suspicion of Your ideas. I see you left off Atarus' ideas. And my own. I actually am QUITE pro-New ideas. But when ideas are presented, I like to comment on them, and give feedback. I also like to try to see if we can improve ideas. I saw your idea (Kill the Gov), and I found it a BAD idea. Others have said the same, it really doesn't sound like a good idea to just have a "Let's ALWAYS do this Policy". I am anti-Those sorts of ideas. NAF then had a "Let's vote for the low counters". Now... you see may see it as another new idea that I am oppressing by saying it's a bad idea. But here's my Viewpoint: --It's the SAME damn policy. Your's was Let's always lynch the Gov. His was "I'm gonna always* vote the lowest" (* for first 2 days or so he said i believe). See to me, that's the SAME TYPE of idea. It's a "I'm always gonna do ____" idea. And i dislike THOSE ideas, because they defer guilt, because You're just performing a mechanical action. If scum doesn't get lynched, oh well, You were just doing your policy, and not actively trying to lynch the dude. That's Not cool. Because it always you to easily rack up kills w/o any scumminess, cuz "you were just following orders". So to reiterate: I like new ideas. But the two ideas I read- both were the same thing: Mechanical action Ideas. I dislike those TYPES of ideas. So yes... I do hate THOSE sorts of ideas. I called both of you out on it. --But then Atarus posted ANOTHER new idea. One that wasn't "Let's always do ____". And it wasn't half bad. So I agreed, and then tried to modify it so it could work better (compromising it w/ NAF's Idea so his could work better (as I do dislike Lurkers, and I liked his idea's intent more than yours). See: Ideas shared, Ideas improved. It's a good thing. But then you twist my words to be "I hate new ideas." and now I notice you used the same argument against someone else who disagrees with your ideas. This starts to make me wonder. Because That's a REALLY crappy excuse "Why do you hate new ideas". She's not hating ALL new ideas. She's just hated on you and NAF. Not me, not atarus, not Gov'nor Santos "I like Texas Justice, no stays of executions" policy*. Cookie said she didn't like YOUR idea. And that's how you countered. I didn't like it. --Cuz here's the thing: you can easily twist that argument to be used against you: "Why do you, Pleo, hate people who voice their opinions? First you stifle me for sharing my thoughts, and now you stifle Cookies for sharing her thoughts. It's like you want people NOT to share info. I find the above argument that I just gave to be ludicrous and it's an obvious straw man. So I gotta wonder, why are you using him though? I'm all for people sharing their feelings, and I want to know where people are leanings votes, so at the end of the Day, If I see Cookies suddenly changing her mind and voting for like Gov'nor Santo, I'll be able to ask her Qs the next day: Why the change of mind? why did you shift your thinking? By leaving these options, she's leaving a paper trail, and I want those. Everyone should do that, only scum really want the random last min "Me too" votes, because they make everyone look scummy. So please Pleo, don't encourage that with the "Why do you hate America" strawman. (O_ <) (and the EoS is just a term I made up, I like having fun, and I do like to goof off in odd ways (such as coming up with nicknames for people) so yeah, EoS is just a silly term. I just use the EoS so i can remember whose ideas pinged my gut) But I think you've earned yourself a full on FoS Pleonast. I also disliked what seemed to me like a shift "Pro-Town power roles shouldn't run for office! With that said, I don't really want to run for office" Post 97 of yours: [on CatinASuit] "There's no way I'm voting for someone as Governor who wants the position. Although it seems unlikely a Replicant would want the office so early in the game, it may be worthwhile risk."Post 119: "Actually, do we really want an active player as Governor? Take me for instance--I'm likely to be in the thick of any fray, just because of my personality and posting style. You really want me to make life-and-death decision?" [Okay, we get it, you don't want to be Gov.... Which would mean by the above quote, :coughs at the WIFOM: I just disliked it. Didn't sit well with me, the whole "I don't wanna vote for the person who wants to be gov, oh and I don't wanna be gov." (and disregarding your early quote in 97, where you stated "well in that case, I want to be gov" with a smiley, I figured it was a joke and didn't count it), but still, reading through all those posts while catching up, just... caught me as being kinda odd. But it's not something I'm gonna say is scummy or isnt. As Dotchan is a master of WIFOMing like that, and it drives me nuts. but still. *This was just to remind me to share how I feel about Gov. Rugger in office. If i was around during the day, I would have probably complained... As his policy is PRETTY much the same one as last Game's policy (which he did as a Godfather) " I will always hammer/ execute." It made me do an internal Sigh, and think of the song "Won't Get Fooled Again" by The Who.... But it's a new idea the Gov'nor one, and so we'll wait and see what our Fearless Leader ends up doing.... But that's my opinion on the matter, and that's just that. -Someone also mentioned a slip, I need to go back and read that. So i'll end this post pretty much for now. Pleonast is right now up there in my book as I dislike his current tactic. Even though I know you amended your original idea. The original idea made me take note of you, and now this new tactic is my issue. So I understand that you were no longer Pro the "Let's lynch the Gov" idea. Hell, you even set up a campaign promise (let my head wrap itself around THAT piece of WIFOM, from the man who didn't want to be gov. and the man who wanted to kill the Gov, suddenly stating hey, don't elect me. And then, "hey, if you elect me, I'll do this!" --all that fence jumping on the Gov stance is curious to me, but you're not in office, so it's just something to note). Though if you have information on your thoughts on your Run for Office, Please, do share, Pleo. And Remember: Roosh is a Dude.
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RoOsh
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Day One
Nov 17, 2007 0:11:35 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Nov 17, 2007 0:11:35 GMT -5
Saying this without saying what you think the slip was, is in no way helpful to the town. Ok. what zeriel has posted that pinged my scumdar. You can make your own minds up as to whether I have found something or just being paranoid Point 1: #69 The governor debate should be of GREAT interest to the townies, as should anyone proposing an automatic method of voting that uses little or no discretion--both of these are situations where the scum can have a disproportionate effect on the town. Yeah... No one apparently really likes the "Magic Bag" tactic, Cat. I learned that the hard way. As for the slip... I don't feel like it could go either was (as with slips i try to put myself into the scum's shoes, and then my own, and then back to see "could it be a slip?". I would have said "great interest to us." but i like to personalize things. Maybe Zeriel doesn't, so I won't give him the X on that. But "the townies" doesn't sit well with me either. --I could understand if he had said "The Town" and keeping it general like that. That's fine. but "the townies"? It's like he's saying "it's of great importance to THEM but not to me"... and so yeah, I can see it as a def. odd thing to say. Unless he's Australian (as I recently learned from the DopeBoards, they seem to like the -y/-ie diminutive). So, Zeriel, Are you from Australia?Otherwise FoS Zeriel in my Book. And while i still have a good eye around, EoS to HazelNut for being late to the show. But you posted, so that's good, but i just noticed that. So yeah... don't make it a habit and don't lurk!
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Day One
Nov 17, 2007 0:12:48 GMT -5
Post by Pleonast on Nov 17, 2007 0:12:48 GMT -5
Look at his Icon if you forget his Gender. Hey, I should look at the info on the side! I just read the name of the poster and then on to the post. What's this Karma anyway? Why? Are you trying to send a message that posting ideas should be discouraged? Okay. The first time i was like (' ), the second time i'm just like (-_-). I got the first "You hate america' post way back in the Day, and I see you did it again (thanks for that term btw, i like it, Cookies). I'm not sure what you (and Cookies) are complaining about. It's a valid comment on my part: condemning players simply because they've advocated a plan you disagree with doesn't help the Colony. It does discourage less foolhardy players from making suggestions. And, a disagreement in tactics does not imply a difference in alignment.I keep seeing this in the games I've been in: two Townies get in an argument over what approach to take. The Scum take advantage of the distraction and keep the attention off themselves by fanning the flames. Some Townies take sides, others shut up because they don't want to take risks. The Town ends up floundering until a well-timed info dump from a power role saves everyone. I want to do better this game. But here's the thing. There is a KEY difference. I am not voicing suspicion at NEW ideas. I'm voicing suspicion of Your ideas. I see you left off Atarus' ideas. And my own. I actually am QUITE pro-New ideas. But when ideas are presented, I like to comment on them, and give feedback. I also like to try to see if we can improve ideas. I encourage others to attack ideas. The problem comes when they attack the person. You didn't just talk about my plan, you pointed your eyebrow at me. Cookies directly threatened to vote for me. Thus discouraging me from presenting another idea lest I get a vote. Does that make sense? "Let's ALWAYS do this Policy" To be fair, my kill-the-Governor plan was only automatic after the Governor was chosen. Choosing the Governor was not automatic; it would have been just like choosing who to electrocute. Though if you have information on your thoughts on your Run for Office, Please, do share, Pleo.What's more to say? Rugger was voting for me for Governor because of some fuzzy logic that it'd make me retract my Governor-in-front-of-me plan. You can go back and read my responses to that.
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Day One
Nov 17, 2007 0:18:07 GMT -5
Post by Boozahol Squid, P.I. on Nov 17, 2007 0:18:07 GMT -5
But the scum can't actually plan during the day and they wouldn't want to do something that would obviously give them away. I agree that Pleonast's plan isn't great, but I'm not of the mind that he proposed it out of nefarious motivations. Bad strategizing is a lynchable offense early in the game, dot. And while I know that proposing an anti-town strategy isn't necessarily a scumtell, I find it much more likely to be one coming from someone like Pleonast, who should know better.
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Day One
Nov 17, 2007 0:26:46 GMT -5
Post by Pleonast on Nov 17, 2007 0:26:46 GMT -5
I'm actually quite fine with Santo as governor for now, but the biggest snarking scumtell I've seen so far is Pleo's plan. It seems like taking that plan into action will empower swift, early day action. The scum's ability to organize themselves efficiently makes any sort of quick ations favor them seriously: the measured tread of logic is our best defense against them (excepting the Blade Runner, of course). (emphasis added) Bad strategizing is a lynchable offense early in the game, dot. In that case, oughten you make a better case against me? Because it seems to me our disagreement about the effectiveness of my plan is a matter of opinion, and not simply one of logic and facts.
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Day One
Nov 17, 2007 0:29:32 GMT -5
Post by Boozahol Squid, P.I. on Nov 17, 2007 0:29:32 GMT -5
Think about it a little more. The two reasons I suggested the elect-before-electrocute plan: 1) Removes the WIFOM of the Governor's office. 2) Gives us an extra 24 hours each Day, except the first. Those are both pro-Colony, correct? These must be weighed against the cons: 1) Day One choice is very short. 2) Death reveals may change our deliberations. These are negatives. Do the pros outweight the cons. I don't think they do, but that's obviously a matter of opinion. You think the cons are too negative. Fine, we disagree on that point. No need to rehash the arguments, it's clear the Colony doesn't want to implement the plan, so that's that. Yet now you're voting me for because I suggested a course of action and advocated it. So much for trying to encourage Colonists to be open with their thinking, if it means getting the chair if the consensus ends up against their ideas. The Governor's office should be a sinecure. A governor who attempts to alter the lynch process is a primary lynch target. But using one election to finger a lynch candidate who then has to prove his innocence, in a game where innocence can't be proven, just seems like it a prime scheme for railroading vanillas into the chair. And I'm not in favor of shutting down open thinking. I am in favor of shutting down scummy thinking. I know I came pretty late to that argument, but I would have put an early vote in for you when it happened, as well. I've yet to see someone who better eserves my vote. It's a day one vote, anyways.
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Day One
Nov 17, 2007 0:34:05 GMT -5
Post by Boozahol Squid, P.I. on Nov 17, 2007 0:34:05 GMT -5
In that case, oughten you make a better case against me? Because it seems to me our disagreement about the effectiveness of my plan is a matter of opinion, and not simply one of logic and facts. Day one vote. I put a far smaller degree of accountability on day one votes than I do on strategizing.
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RoOsh
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Day One
Nov 17, 2007 0:46:31 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Nov 17, 2007 0:46:31 GMT -5
What's this Karma anyway? It's just a fun add on, where you can raise or subtract points from others, you can do it once every hour. I personally (and I think others too) tend to keep it unrelated to the game. As in, don't just go out and start smiting people because you think they're scum, or use it as a voting sorta indicator. But its sorta like a stress reliever ball, as there's different karmic ranks, and there's something oddly satisfying about getting into a yelling match with someone, and then just smiting him for fun. I view it as a tension reliever, and don't mind if I go down really really low (i love to smite the Hosts when they're late w/ the Dawn/Dusk posts). I also though vote arbitrarily. Like I'll try to vote/smite people so that their karma is a number that ends in 3 or 7. But each person kinda does it their own way, YMMV. I'm not sure what you (and Cookies) are complaining about. It's a valid comment on my part: condemning players simply because they've advocated a plan you disagree with doesn't help the Colony. It does discourage less foolhardy players from making suggestions. And, a disagreement in tactics does not imply a difference in alignment.~snip~ I encourage others to attack ideas. The problem comes when they attack the person. You didn't just talk about my plan, you pointed your eyebrow at me. Cookies directly threatened to vote for me. Thus discouraging me from presenting another idea lest I get a vote. Does that make sense? Okay, you and I have diff. styles then. Because... i associate PEOPLE with ideas, unless they state "here's an idea, judge it good or bad". You seemed to imply that you were in favor of your idea at first. I disagreed. That's why I did the EoS. It was just a tip of the hat to let you know. So now... if I find an idea scummy, what's the next step? Well, I look at where the idea CAME from. It came from you. Then I look to see what's your stance on it. It seems you presented the idea, others disliked it (including myself), and you took the idea back (some would say backpedaling, however, I can understand that, I felt the same way in FF, so i wont count that against you). But i'll remember that. So you take back your idea, but then you defend it with a REALLY bad tactic. Rather than talking about the idea, you start claiming that it's impeding ALL ideas. You took my criticisms and you falsely applied it to all other cases. --THAT makes me take note. Because it wasn't just an "okay, so I had a bad idea. My bad" post from you. It was a "Hey, don't criticize me about my idea. Or NAF about his idea. Because it's ANTI-Town." It became a global issue when you state that my disagreeing with your idea hurts everyone. Because i don't see it as that. I see it as, you had a bad idea. I disliked idea. You say my dissent is Anti-Town. That makes me wonder more and more about you then. Because you did this with me. And then you did this with Cookies. I see it as a Strawman, and I think it's a scummy ACTION. Therefore, i am def. inclined to FoS, and leaning towards voting for you over others who have not presented such indications. As for ideas, what happened to sharing every idea as if it was your last? (Wait. That might have been NAF who said that. NM on that, but i think it applies still). My views are: If you have an idea that you think is Good for the Town, SHARE IT! Don't Hold back just because you think YOU'RE going to get lynched for it. The Town as a whole wins together. Not one person, unless you feel your life is more valuable than another townie, that's the only reason I could really see you wanting to hold back ideas. But by just saying "I don't want to talk because I'll get lynched" that sets off my Scumdar, dude. Because that means you've got something to hide, and if you started off the game with your original ideas (which i felt were not helpful to the town) of COURSE then I'm gonna start getting an idea of where your allegiance may lie rather than where it should. Ya dig? -Basically, do you understand why I dislike the Straw man/ How it's different from what you're saying? Though if you have information on your thoughts on your Run for Office, Please, do share, Pleo.What's more to say? Well, I was asking more of could you clarify your positions on the matter through the Day. because it seemed your opinions changed, and rather than guess where it changed, I wanted to ask YOU to clarify. Because to me it seemed like you were Anti-Gov. Then you were Anti-Gov w/ an addendum. Then you were stating, you were anti- People who want to be Gov (the Cat issue), then it seemed like you were Pro-Being a Gov. even though you stated you wouldn't vote anyone who was Pro-Being a Gov. Then you were unsure on the Gov. issue. Then you came out with Campaign promises, which made me think you were Pro-Gov. And so to me, that looked like inconsistent action and switching around, and so I wanted you to clarify better, like give an account on what you were thinking. Ie: Sum your WHOLE candidacy up. I understand why it started (Pygmy's anti your idea), and how it ended up (you wanting to become Gov). I just wanted to understand how you got from point A to Point B, rather than me assuming the worst from the start. I want you to explain yourself/ make it more clear to me.
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RoOsh
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[on:Wanna see a magic trick?][of:See You, Space Cowboy....]
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Day One
Nov 17, 2007 1:19:29 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Nov 17, 2007 1:19:29 GMT -5
Oh and this is out of game, since I realized we have some new people i've not met before. I curse. Alot sometimes. In part because We've had filters in the past, and so its fun to find ways around them, and to use them. But also because i never cursed for 18 years, and then i felt I had alot of cursing to make up for it. But now it's 4 years later, and I've matured. But old habits die hard. So i do curse aLOT. If it's a problem for ANYONE, just speak up and totally let me know and I'll cut the shit out. But yeah, please do not take anything I say maliciously or as in anger. I really am a gentle soul, i just happen to have a filthy mouth. But if I say anything that's offensive, or you feel I'm being rude to you, or you're just not sure. PLEASE Call me out on it out of game, and I will try to rectify the situation, and I will try to cut back on it. But yeah, I do tend to be agressive, and I do curse alot. So sometimes I may say something flippant in my mind, such as "You're a fucking piece of scummy shit, or "What an idiotic idea", but not realize that there might be someone who would take that personally... -okay well that first example I'd realize is a bit harsh, and I know better than that. Usually. But still. Lemme if anything seems to be getting to intense, as I usually make ALL my posts with a huge grin on my face as I love to be in this community, and i find all of you guys hilarious and great to play along with. But I don't want to step on toes, so if there's a problem, i'll do my best to fix it. This is more for the people who might not know me yet.... But it applies to old peep too (I love you, Dotchan and I know I've gotten close to bumping heads with Storyteller too) so uh yeah. Gentle Soul, fucked up mouth. But i can try to change. Just lemme know if you have a line and where it is. and I will not cross it. (note, this post probably has more cursing in it than most of my normal posts, but its just to prove a point/show what could be around my baseline. I'll try to avoid this much language even in the game). /Back to the Game.
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Day One
Nov 17, 2007 2:18:02 GMT -5
Post by Boozahol Squid, P.I. on Nov 17, 2007 2:18:02 GMT -5
Prick.
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Day One
Nov 17, 2007 5:44:11 GMT -5
Post by Captain Klutz on Nov 17, 2007 5:44:11 GMT -5
Saying this without saying what you think the slip was, is in no way helpful to the town. Ok. what zeriel has posted that pinged my scumdar. You can make your own minds up as to whether I have found something or just being paranoid Point 1: #69 The governor debate should be of GREAT interest to the townies, as should anyone proposing an automatic method of voting that uses little or no discretion--both of these are situations where the scum can have a disproportionate effect on the town. This third person reference to the town makes him sound to me as though he is not a member of the town and it does not seem self referential. Maybe not scum, but more likely third party. As I said YMMV. It's the use of "the townies" that looks bad to me. It's something I almost said in the previous game, when I was scum. And yes, I was then thinking of "the townies" as "that other group". At this moment the d12/d20 combo points unequivocally at candidate number 15. Using "random" as your reason for voting for someone (either Governor or Chair) is just as worthless as using the lowest post count. It's an attempt at denying personal accountability. "The dice made me do it" (or any mechanical procedure) does not help other Colonists decide if you're acting in the interest of the Colony or the Replicants. Us Colonists need to see the motivations of others. That's the most reliable way us vanilla Colonists have to separate the wheat from the chaff. These are the players who've used "random" as an excuse to vote for someone: Parzival, Cookies, Kat, kassia, Yattara. (drainbead original randomed someone, but retracted it an made a reasoned vote.) I ask all these players to reconsider their mechanical vote and place a vote based on a reason. You know, so us information-starved Colonists have something to work with? The use of "Us Colonists" looks a bit forced. I mean, using "We" would have been far more natural. The "Us Colonists" looks like it's trying too hard to say "hey, I'm just the same as you". FOS Pleonast
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Day One
Nov 17, 2007 8:10:54 GMT -5
Post by episodeofblonde on Nov 17, 2007 8:10:54 GMT -5
Roosh, as far as I'm concerned, curse away. Not gonna bother me.
I hope that Guv issues won't crowd out everything else for the rest of toDay. However, I still think Pleo and NAF's attempts to manipulate us should be kept in mind to see if they try to do this in other ways.
Re: self-referential language and whatnot. I agree with Klutz here in that my ScumSenses ping *more* when I see 'Us Colonists' or the like seemingly shoehorned into every post or sentence (especially when it should be 'We Colonists' but that is my last grammar related comment!). Anxiety about making sure that one doesn't make a zeriel-style slip could be the cause, or a more Replicanty anxiety to blend in with the regular folk.
That said, that sentence of zeriel's does seem a bit odd on re-reading. Something I'm keeping in mind...
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Day One
Nov 17, 2007 9:21:48 GMT -5
Post by Captain Klutz on Nov 17, 2007 9:21:48 GMT -5
Just to clarify the us/we issue:
It's not "us colonists" vs "we colonists", it's "us colonists" vs "we".
For example, when Pleonast said "Us Colonists need to see the motivations ...", it would have been more natural to simply say "We need to see the motivations ...".
The repeated use of the awkward and unnecessary "us colonists" is what pings a bit.
And one thing I forgot in my post above: FOS zeriel
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Day One
Nov 17, 2007 9:31:00 GMT -5
Post by Yattara on Nov 17, 2007 9:31:00 GMT -5
Roosh, I don't mind your swearing. I hardly ever see it. It gets drowned out by the sheer volume of your posts. My brain's a bit fried from yesterday. I'll come back when it's dried out enough.
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Day One
Nov 17, 2007 9:34:07 GMT -5
Post by episodeofblonde on Nov 17, 2007 9:34:07 GMT -5
Just to clarify the us/we issue: It's not "us colonists" vs "we colonists", it's "us colonists" vs "we". For example, when Pleonast said "Us Colonists need to see the motivations ...", it would have been more natural to simply say "We need to see the motivations ...". The repeated use of the awkward and unnecessary "us colonists" is what pings a bit. Right, that's what I meant as well. My GrammarNazi escaped for a moment. I've got it under control now.
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Day One
Nov 17, 2007 9:53:30 GMT -5
Post by zuma on Nov 17, 2007 9:53:30 GMT -5
WTF, the game started already? Sorry, I was out of town in SoCal and didn't have the URL and didn't think about checking in. Anyway, I'm here and all.
Thoughts after a quick skim of the thread:
From my limited experience most dumb ideas and strategies which get a lot of scrutiny on day 1 are from townies. The Pleonast dumb idea de jour isn't something I'd expect scum to do. I don't think scum would hatch a complicated plot on the mostly useless day 1. Those who are targeting Pleonast are another matter.
The zerial "the townies" thing, as lame a reason as it might be (and really, all vote justifications on day one are inherently lame) is interesting.
Also, congratulations to my former scumbuddy Rugger on the whole governor thing. I'll be back for a real re-read tomorrow night.
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