Blaster Master
Mome Rath
The player formerly know as BLAM!
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Post by Blaster Master on Jun 12, 2008 13:31:27 GMT -5
All of which leads, actually, to the following, which will no doubt inflame the suspicions of those who have decided (or are pretending to have decided) that I am a third-party actor. I don't care. I am not PFK, but the opening color suggests that someone is, and it's worth discussing how to manage that fact early in the game. Batman was an interesting game. The Town lynched its enemies (scum or PFK) in all but one case in that game, and still ended up at lynch-or-lose. When I finally died, I bitched and moaned at some length in the spoiler threads about how unfair that was, and how imbalanced the game was, and how the Baddies (that game's Town) played so well, we should have won easily. Then I thought about it some more. The thing is, in games with third-party players, those third-party players serve a double role: (1) they threaten to win the game themselves, spoiling everyone else's win; but also, and importantly: (2) they serve as a key element in the central battle of the game: Town v. Scum. The thing that I didn't quite internalize before is this: as a Town, we have a certain number of mislynches with which to work. We don't know how many, but it's out there. It can be changed by the actions of certain power roles, but nonetheless. The key thing, the thing I didn't get, is that lynches of third-party players count as mislynches for the purposes of this calculation. One of the central battles of this game will be us trying to get the Demons to off the PFK for us, and the Demons trying to get us to lynch the PFK for them. The PFK have to die, but it is not to our advantage to lynch them unless we are comfortably ahead in the main game. FOA, I'm going to leave commenting on your role until I've caught up more, as I suspect there's probably more said later. Either way, I have to comment on this, even if it is slightly metagamey. This is pretty much the point I was working on in the Batman game. The fact that I was scum really was irrelevant. PFKs are a threat to both sides, but it's hardly ever a black and white issue. PFKs are basically a game of chicken. They're a threat to both sides, and it's ideal to have them out early but, at the same time, it's optimal to have the otherside kill them. If one side is way ahead, it's a pretty much a non-issue for them to kill them. However, that is seldom the case. Instead, what generally seems to happen is that the threat of the PFK becomes great enough that one side worries about them enough to kill them. The problem is, the risk is always difficult to assess... Can they reveal extra information? Can they win sooner than we can? Can they potentially cause extra deaths? This is the strategy that I employed to great success in the Batman game for getting the PFKs lynched. I did everything I could to make them appear as threatening as possible and making the town look like they had enough of an edge to make the risk worth it. This is a trap that we should not fall into in this game. Further, to comment on the fact that it was lylo with the town nearly lynching perfectly on non-townies. This is a more difficult situation to assess, because third party elements potentially have a drastic effect on the balance of the game. The Conspiracy (the first one) is a good example of this. It was possible for the town the lose even lynching perfectly. The way it went down, it took a lot of overlap from the scum just to get it to lylo. Basically, I'm looking at it kind of like bowling. You can bowl almost perfectly, missing only one pin in the very last frame and bowl a 299, but if your opponent bowls a 300, you're still screwed. That is, PFKs are more than just a game of chicken between town and scum, they're potentially tools or landmines (depending on the individual role) that can be manipulated by either side to bring sway the advantage. Either way, if there are PFKs, and it looks likely that there probably are, we need to take a much more reasoned and broad-minded approach to them. Is one a SK? He's not necessarily only anti-town (again, depending on his role). If he's a threat to the scum, maybe they'll kill him. Maybe we can manipulate him and get him to kill a scum or two for us. Remember, in M2, the SK was more of a threat to the scum until he realized the scum were handing the town their asses on a plate. Now, I'm not trying to make a case that an SK is a good thing, just that we need to carefully consider these possibilities before allowing the fearmongering over PFKs to get the best of us.
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Post by tdpatriots12 on Jun 12, 2008 13:31:36 GMT -5
Wow. Just wow. Here I am, sitting with my mouth open sucking coffee, reading posts, and trying to find scum to lay a vote on then all this stuff happens.
HM was on my "not voting for" list today, but I don't like her vote or justification on Darth. About half of us haven't voted and there's only four hours before the deadline, I can see townies reaching just as much as scum (uh, more on that later...). But really, Darth? Because he's looking up breadcrumbs? Heck, you could be right, but I don't see it.
And FCOD was on my "take a look at him" list today, but I have to say his defense makes sense and I find myself agreeing with him on this matter.
I might be forced to resort to voting for the person with the vote on me yesterday I think is the scummiest. Which, FYI, would be misterblockey's, just to give him and everyone else a heads up.
Oh, who am I kidding - it's the best I've got: vote misterblockey
* mhaye's analysis and theories based on the SDM lynch. I am keeping in mind that he didn't see fit to vote for you based on this. * Your vote on me yesterday uses, in my opinion the weakest and most opportunistic justification. Even if you believed the FCOD wagon was dead and you couldn't come back and re-adjust your vote, your characterization of the lynch as being me or SDM was incorrect at the time. * I realize that you posted an explanation of your vote, which seems to cover you for the most part. The problem is, we can all, given enough time and luck - justify our way out of anything, so for the purposes of this vote, I am taking your explanation as false. I have no particular evidence that it is, but I also have no way of knowing if it isn't.
Oh, and a final thought on RoOsh since it popped into my head: Dude, if almost anything that can be defined as "bad" happens to you, and you're still alive Tomorrow - I'm voting for you. I don't think I made that clear in any of my previous posts on the subject. But if I'm going to treat your claim as truthful, it would mean I have no choice but to do so as you are therefore PFK at best.
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Hockey Monkey!
Borogrove
This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker over who killed who.
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Post by Hockey Monkey! on Jun 12, 2008 13:32:14 GMT -5
OK, now I'm really confused. You think possessed players might have more information about exorcism, but you wouldn't know because you are just vanilla town, but you still need to be shoehorned. Which is it?
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Hockey Monkey!
Borogrove
This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker over who killed who.
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Post by Hockey Monkey! on Jun 12, 2008 13:37:00 GMT -5
That post was directed to Darth. I'm not as concerned over his breadcrumb hunt (that's just what caught my eye) as I am that he may not be who he led us to believe he was in the first place.
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Post by The Real FCOD on Jun 12, 2008 13:39:42 GMT -5
OK, now I'm really confused. You think possessed players might have more information about exorcism, but you wouldn't know because you are just vanilla town, but you still need to be shoehorned. Which is it? Obviously he is trying to fulfill his posting restrictions. I'd imagine he can't say too much that might imply that he is possessed... --FCOD
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Hockey Monkey!
Borogrove
This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker over who killed who.
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Post by Hockey Monkey! on Jun 12, 2008 13:42:37 GMT -5
OK, now I'm really confused. You think possessed players might have more information about exorcism, but you wouldn't know because you are just vanilla town, but you still need to be shoehorned. Which is it? Obviously he is trying to fulfill his posting restrictions. I'd imagine he can't say too much that might imply that he is possessed... --FCOD I think that horse is out of the barn.
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Post by The Real FCOD on Jun 12, 2008 13:43:45 GMT -5
I think that horse is out of the barn. And I'm sure he's still not allowed to say it. --FCOD
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Post by bufftabby on Jun 12, 2008 13:57:42 GMT -5
Let's dissect that post, shall we? Cry for help. We know now this to be true. At that time we didn't know if d2mons were players or a game mechanic. How do we know that type 2 can't bring more to their side? We have no proof that I'm aware of. What if any newly-possessed folks haven't felt the urge to advertise their shoe problems? While yes, it seems as though standard recruitment isn't part of it, but I don't see how this is any great revelation, proving any sort of townieness. They can be left by living players as well, of course, seeing as how they'd have to be alive to leave them. If you don't see what's scummy about fishing for power roles, I can't help you. He said the same basic things as Hal--after Hal said them, yes? Your little bon mot about "Maybe [Hal's] scum too!!!!11" is misplaced, because Hal never fished for power roles. That's why Darth is under suspicion, and I've seen no evidence that clears him.
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Post by The Real FCOD on Jun 12, 2008 14:13:17 GMT -5
How do we know that type 2 can't bring more to their side? We have no proof that I'm aware of. What if any newly-possessed folks haven't felt the urge to advertise their shoe problems? While yes, it seems as though standard recruitment isn't part of it, but I don't see how this is any great revelation, proving any sort of townieness. We don't know...I don't see how that's relevant. They can be left by living players as well, of course, seeing as how they'd have to be alive to leave them. If you don't see what's scummy about fishing for power roles, I can't help you. Looking for breadcrumbs does not equal fishing for power roles. He said the same basic things as Hal--after Hal said them, yes? Your little bon mot about "Maybe [Hal's] scum too!!!!11" is misplaced, because Hal never fished for power roles. That's why Darth is under suspicion, and I've seen no evidence that clears him. Yeah...that''s my point. He said the same basic things as Hal. If DS was scum, how would he know that Hal was possessed and to mimic him? He wouldn't. And I still don't see where DS said he was fishing for power roles. --FCOD
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Blaster Master
Mome Rath
The player formerly know as BLAM!
Now 34.788% less repellant to Sharks! :( [on:I WANT TO DIE!][of:I WANT TO LIVE!]
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Post by Blaster Master on Jun 12, 2008 14:17:17 GMT -5
I'm saying this because this is the second game I've subbed into where I've felt that my side needed a kick up the arse to get them going. In the other game, the townies eventually won. So I don't agree with FCOD here. It's not naivety that's killing the town here, it's mental laziness. Everyone's rushing to sort out the zombie issues and the milkman issues etc. Well, fine. These things should be sorted out. But not at the expense of actually playing mafia and making the simple deductions that let you know exactly who the scum are. To my mind there's at least three, maybe four people whose alignment is fairly clear, but who haven't really been commented on to that effect. Maybe people are trying to keep obvious citizens safe - in which case, fine. But reading the threads, it doesn't come across like that, it looks as if people simply aren't thinking about the facts. I'm certain that was the case with SDM. I don't like this at all. You have to remember that this isn't a no-vanilla game. You also have to remember that not everyone looks at things the same way you do, or that maybe they didn't come to the same conclusions. This post bothers me, because you spend all this time talking about how we screwed up for lynching Stardragonman (a position with which I happen to agree); however, you say that because he was "obviously town". But then you make the above statement that I bolded where you specifically mention that there are some people whose alignments are fairly clear, but make NO effort to say who they are. I see this as a contradiction because confirmed citizens are always a good thing. If there's compelling evidence to say why a specific person is unlikely to be scum, then it's a good thing to say so. Remember, pro-town doesn't necessarily mean pro-town power role. It only really makes them more likely to be targetted IF the scum are favoring confirmed townies over unconfirmed townies. This is also very different than a usual trust list, because those will often just have gut reactions or weak analysis. So I submit to you, that if you see someone as "obviously town" and you can make a good case for it, do it! Maybe you'll present something that the rest of us haven't seen. Maybe they're not only pro-town, but a power role, and by confirming them through other methods, we can avoid putting them on the lynch wagon and forcing a role-claim out of them. So yeah, this doesn't sit well with me at all. I just don't see the logic here. I can't say whether or not it's scummy, but I'm going to have to watch more closely your behavior the rest of the Day.
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Post by Holy Moley! on Jun 12, 2008 14:24:24 GMT -5
Awwwwwwwwww bollocks. Six hours? Being used to the Friday day-ends, I didn't check the color for the official end of day. I thought I had a full day and a bit left. There's certainly a lot of interesting stuff coming out now, which pleases me no end. Unfortunately it's a little late in the day. Back soon (before the day ends) with more stuff. Just in case I miss it though, I'm going to vote Darth Sensitive. I'm sure there's a better candidate than him, I just can't name them at the moment. I'm going to try and post something more substantial last-minute anyway.
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RoOsh
FGM
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Post by RoOsh on Jun 12, 2008 14:28:50 GMT -5
RooshI think you might be taking my words as implying you have been lazy. I don’t believe that to be true. I just think our motivations differ. Your biggest priority isn’t to find scum. Your biggest priority is to figure out who you are. This is entirely reasonable and the tact I’d take if I were in your shoes. After all you wouldn’t want to aid town and realize later that you were in fact on a different side. My number one and only priority to get rid of all evil entities, so our goals aren’t fully aligned. I also don’t think we will have that much more information on your case tomorrow then today. Perhaps the investigator, if we have one, will investigate someone else. I know if I was a detective, I’d be checking out Story. Perhaps, an investigation would just show you as having amnesia. Where would that get us? Sure, you will give us three more clues tomorrow, but I believe you are smart enough to determine whether they point to you being scum. Can you honestly say if you thought that, you wouldn’t change them around before revealing them? I’m still bothered about the timing of your revealed information. Why not speak up at beginning of the game, and let the town help you figure things out? What is the motivation for keeping things secret? Were you concerned you were not town aligned. Why wait so late in day two to reveal things? Your late reveal directly led to the lynching of a townie. If you revealed your possible connection to TDpats earlier on, we could have sorted things out much earlier, and considered other suspects. Speaking of which, what do you think of the case against TDpats now that you probably aren’t connected to him? To be fair to you, I don’t think I looked closely enough at your recent posts. I was between lynching you and NAF, and when NAF lessened my concerns a bit, I went to my other top choice. I’ll reread everything you wrote past TdPat's revelation later today. Oh and if I’m trying to slip under the radar, accusing NAF and you isn’t really the best way of doing it. I think i was really frustrated yesterday, and I came off a bit harsh. I do admit my priorities are in trying to find out WHAT I am, however, it was over the course of the day before yesterday by talking to tdpatriots and molefan that I began to realize that well, it wasn't the best play to make. My priorities were taking precedent, and I was hurting the town. Which if i was to continue to expend time and energy into finding out what I am, and discover that I'm Town- well, then I've effectly shot myself in the foot, as the Town has been suffering, people aren't talking, votes keep coming down to the last few hours, and that sorta thing. So I'm basically putting my eggs in one basket now: The Town's Basket- as I'm deliberately not fulfilling my own Condition toDay, and its kinda unnerving. You do bring a valid point- if I had realized the clues pointed towards scum, I could easily have lied- however, I had been going about this entirely different- I had been playing simply by fulfilling the clue that threatened my life the most. Because I have seen the Amnesiac role before with Atarus/Pollux Oil, and we've always discussed it at length on how to use it. I've always felt the role works best with them as a survivor for a few days, and then simply after a fixed time period- you tell them what they are. Atarus well, he's had a bit more logical thinking classes, and brought a twist that I never even really considered- these little clues. I've never seen a variation like this on the role, and frankly I dislike these sorts of puzzles. So my strategy has seemly been to focus on that which most threatens me and treat it as True. Just play it safe, and hope that information will eventually lead to me figuring out things. However, Molefan had some great thoughts on the matter and then Tdpatriots gave his thoughts on the logic aspects- something that is NOT my strong point- these are the sorts of things that never really occurred to me, simply because I'm not that sort of a person- I HATE logic puzzles, and logical fallacies and all that crap. Just avoid it like the plague. But I understand your reasoning that "well you could fudge the clues and all", but I think if I realized I were scum, I would have simply created an easier role to fudge around with. Because this role claim is a pain in the ass, and yes- being "inventive" with my claims is something I'm known for, but this is just masochistic- It'd be much easier to ignore the whole logical fallacy issues and make up an entirely new Role. But that's sorta a weak argument ("I would have done better at lying", it's just WIFOM, and I understand that now- having had time away from the game. I just got caught up in my role, and then in trying to make an effort to help out the Town even if it meant at a Cost to me- that your comments just really pissed me off. As for the Timing- because I felt my role was one that could easily lead to my demise- I had only had 1 set of clues on Day 2, and frankly I didn't think it was best to claim, because I was just trying to gather information- it was only when the votes were tied up and then switched with the BlockY vote did I really start to panic and get worried. So yeah, my Day 1 behavior- i played as Townie as I could- I had minimal information on my role. Day 2- I was playing more as a Survivor, just focusing on not getting TDpatriots lynched. Day 3: i did the Milkman thing, but I've had a change of heart- and I think any opportunity to try to prove myself to the Town and try to get a semi-confirmed Townie is a good thing. So I'm playing towards that end. That being said I don't think my vote against you was a good one, and it was more in anger and emotional than I like. So Unvote HawkeyeOp
That being said- who to lynch now for toDay? I'll address your tdpats question there in the next post.
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Post by Rysto on Jun 12, 2008 14:33:37 GMT -5
We're not seriously going to lynch Darth Sensitive, are we? Who has claimed to be playing under a time limit? Do we seriously believe that Hal was the only possessed Townie? If Darth isn't possessed, who is? Why haven't they spoken up like Hal did?
I will switch my vote to prevent a Darth lynch.
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Blaster Master
Mome Rath
The player formerly know as BLAM!
Now 34.788% less repellant to Sharks! :( [on:I WANT TO DIE!][of:I WANT TO LIVE!]
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Post by Blaster Master on Jun 12, 2008 14:37:03 GMT -5
Molefan:So far we have killed a Demon Lord and a vanilla town. I think we are doing just fine. Sure yesterday lynch was crappy, but most last minute lynches are. Kat and others were able to analyze posts and find scum day 1. That is not an easy task, and I take umbrage with considering it pure luck. Just because you don't like the reasoning, doesn't make the reasoning invalid. Just some nit-picking here. I agree that the lynch on Day One was poorly reasoned. The fact that the result of the reasoning was correct does not in anyway show that the reasoning was valid. That is, in a boolean universe, true can only imply true, but false can imply true as well as false. In terms of this game, valid logic based on true premises will always result in a valid deduction; however, just because the result agrees with the assertion of the arguer does not mean that his logic or his premises are necessarily true or accurate. This is an important distinction, because the only time it IS useful is when the result is false, which means the logic and/or the presmises MUST be false. This is particularly of note when it comes to investigative roles because, as I'm sure most of us are aware by now, a detective or a lying scum can give true result, so verifying his results really doesn't give us anything in and of itself. However, if a claimed detective gives us a bad reading, it is false and thus there is something wrong with the logic (a detective gets true result except on a godfather type role) or the premise (he is a detective). I'm pointing this out, not because I think it's scummy, as bad logic is usually a null tell, but because it's just plain bad logic and I don't want us to get caught up in a trap that that is good logic, because it may come back to bite us in the butt later.
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Post by Holy Moley! on Jun 12, 2008 14:37:41 GMT -5
I'm saying this because this is the second game I've subbed into where I've felt that my side needed a kick up the arse to get them going. In the other game, the townies eventually won. So I don't agree with FCOD here. It's not naivety that's killing the town here, it's mental laziness. Everyone's rushing to sort out the zombie issues and the milkman issues etc. Well, fine. These things should be sorted out. But not at the expense of actually playing mafia and making the simple deductions that let you know exactly who the scum are. To my mind there's at least three, maybe four people whose alignment is fairly clear, but who haven't really been commented on to that effect. Maybe people are trying to keep obvious citizens safe - in which case, fine. But reading the threads, it doesn't come across like that, it looks as if people simply aren't thinking about the facts. I'm certain that was the case with SDM. I don't like this at all. You have to remember that this isn't a no-vanilla game. You also have to remember that not everyone looks at things the same way you do, or that maybe they didn't come to the same conclusions. This post bothers me, because you spend all this time talking about how we screwed up for lynching Stardragonman (a position with which I happen to agree); however, you say that because he was "obviously town". But then you make the above statement that I bolded where you specifically mention that there are some people whose alignments are fairly clear, but make NO effort to say who they are. I see this as a contradiction because confirmed citizens are always a good thing. If there's compelling evidence to say why a specific person is unlikely to be scum, then it's a good thing to say so. Remember, pro-town doesn't necessarily mean pro-town power role. It only really makes them more likely to be targetted IF the scum are favoring confirmed townies over unconfirmed townies. This is also very different than a usual trust list, because those will often just have gut reactions or weak analysis. So I submit to you, that if you see someone as "obviously town" and you can make a good case for it, do it! Maybe you'll present something that the rest of us haven't seen. Maybe they're not only pro-town, but a power role, and by confirming them through other methods, we can avoid putting them on the lynch wagon and forcing a role-claim out of them. So yeah, this doesn't sit well with me at all. I just don't see the logic here. I can't say whether or not it's scummy, but I'm going to have to watch more closely your behavior the rest of the Day. I actually agree with this, and I'll try to post more before the end of the day. (Little late, I know and I'm sorry.) I know it's not a no-vanilla game - I did make that point myself in fact. (In fact I never claimed to be vanilla town myself - I'm not saying I'm NOT vanilla town, just that I never said specifically that I was.) There's nobody who I think is a definite town being targeted now - one of them, in fact, definitely worries me, and that's Darth. I'm not convinced that he's really demonstrated excessive knowledge early on (if I'm wrong, can someone link me?) but I do recall two players last game using the "playing for keeps" disguise when they were really scum, and I'm certainly not ruling out the possibility of Darth doing the same thing. One of the most worrying things about that is that the "main" scum group chose to kill off someone with holy water. Now I'm not quite clear on what's been confirmed and what hasn't here, so if someone could enlighten me I'd be grateful. Question: I've been through about forty pages worth of forum discussion in three RL days, and it's been driving me a bit mental. Is there any confirmation that holy water won't affect a demon, just a possessed mortal? Because if so, the demons' greatest threat from someone like Ryjae would be if one of them was pretending to be a possessed and curable human. If the holy water carrier can reveal any demon, then this doesn't apply - the demons' only concern would be to get rid of them as quickly as possible to stop them using their power, regardless of whether or not one of them is masquerading as a possessed human.
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Post by The Real FCOD on Jun 12, 2008 14:38:26 GMT -5
We're not seriously going to lynch Darth Sensitive, are we? Who has claimed to be playing under a time limit? Do we seriously believe that Hal was the only possessed Townie? If Darth isn't possessed, who is? Why haven't they spoken up like Hal did? I will switch my vote to prevent a Darth lynch. It's unbelievable, isn't it? Here's my vote count with 4.5 hours remaining: hockeymonkey (3): NAF1138, FlyingCowofDoom, Darth Sensitive Darth Sensitive (3): hockeymonkey, bufftabby, molefan1981 FlyingCowofDoom (2): misterblockey, MHaye tdpatriots (1): Nanook NAF1138 (1): Kison Roosh (1): hawkeyeop Czech (1): Rysto misterblockey (1): tdpatriots UNACCEPTABLY, IMO not voting (6): Blaster Master Czech Kat! storyteller0910 Survivor Smurf Roosh (was voting until two posts ago, so I don't wag my finger at him) --FCOD
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Post by NAF1138 on Jun 12, 2008 14:39:38 GMT -5
Hey, I am back. I have done 98% of my cecilvania duties and am getting ready to catch up.
Can I get the most recent vote count please?
I know you did one not too long ago (I skimed the thread first thing when I got back) but it seems votes have come in fast and furious.
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Post by NAF1138 on Jun 12, 2008 14:41:22 GMT -5
simulposting makes me feel dumb. YAY!
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Post by tdpatriots12 on Jun 12, 2008 14:47:53 GMT -5
I will also change my vote to prevent a Darth lynch, just to get on the record about it. The only scenario I can picture in my mind (at this time) where I'd support a Darth lynch is if I have reason to believe the exorcist is unable or unwilling to help him. Because then, does he become scum eventually? Is he just stuck in "somewhat town" limbo?
Needless to say, I want to know why he still has his shoes on. This question DOES bug the shit out of me. But it's not like I can expect an answer from anyone involved, just the longer he stays possessed, the more worried about the whole situation I'm gonna get.
All that being said I strongly believe Day Three is too early to test Darth by resorting to the lynch.
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Blaster Master
Mome Rath
The player formerly know as BLAM!
Now 34.788% less repellant to Sharks! :( [on:I WANT TO DIE!][of:I WANT TO LIVE!]
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Post by Blaster Master on Jun 12, 2008 14:49:04 GMT -5
Okay, I know I've offered a lot of you milk already people! I NEED more of you guys to start accepting the Milk! The day is halfway through and I still have quite a bit of deliveries to make! If I can't deliver the milk, I'm going to be in trouble once again! PLEASE for my sake- will you take the Milk? I'm just going to chime in here to say: did I go crazy and miss something here? Why is everyone just doing what Roosh asks, without any real explanation or indication of what it might do? Roosh, I'm not taking jack from you without a damn good reason, and the free pass you've been getting from everyone on this incredible weirdness does not, I'm afraid, extend to me. With this, I fully agree. There is precisely zero reason to believe what Roosh is doing is pro-town. While there is also precisely zero reason to believe it is anti-town, I don't know what the Milk does. That said, I DO know what my situation is, and I see no reason to trust Roosh and potentially cripple myself. Thus, Roosh, do not offer me milk. I will not accept it. In fact, I will specifically look with great suspicion upon you for offering me milk if you do so at any point, given this warning and that I will not accept it. I will advise you if and when my view on the matter changes.
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RoOsh
FGM
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Post by RoOsh on Jun 12, 2008 15:03:03 GMT -5
Who to Vote for toDay?
As you mentioned the Tdpatriots lynch- How do I feel about him? I've noted that you've voted for him both times in the past two Days, however, I'm probably not seeing whatever you had seen. Day 1, he was a late voter, and certainly a suspicious one of the many buffy bandwagon jumpers. However, of those jumpers- the one I've been most paranoid about was Storyteller. Even with his current role claim, I don't trust him at all- however, I think if he's lying about his winning condition (as i pretty much believe he can do the zombie thing), I still feel he could be Playing for Keeps and just trying to buy time. If that's the case, then at some point we're going to have to lynch him- but he's right now got a "magic bag" saying that if we give him some time, he'll be able to show us just how pro-town he is. It was one of the reasons why I chose him as my N2 Target, I just didn't trust him, and was hoping to investigate him or anything actually.
On Day 2 though for Tdpatriots- I felt the whole Day was filled with Apathy and no one really cared- they were content to just focus on the lead vote getters- and for a while it looked like SDM, something that I was fine with at the time. I tried to offer some vote analysis, but then I realized it was better just to wait, and hope SDM died. But then you had a built up wagon of Td and FCoD, that was shifted away by Mr. Blockey. I didn't really see any valid justifications, and I felt like people were just ganging up on tdpatriots. Whether he actually is Vanilla as he claims or not, I'm not sure- but he's been helpful, and he hasn't done anything more suspicious to stand out to me toDay. In fact, he's been quite helpful for my own issues. So I think if I live past toDay and dont' really suffer any negative consequences, I'll have a more positive attitude towards him- because I still have a paranoid feeling that maybe he's scum or knows something that I don't and that I'm basically heading off to my Doom toDay by not finishing my deliveries. However, if that's the case, I was probably PFK, and so- well played then. But I hope he hangs then Day 4. (And I suppose I have to expect the same from you, tdpatriots- as you've pointed out- if I suffer a negative consequence but a non-lethal one, I guess i should be hanged as well at some point as I'll be a PFK that someone would have to finish off).
So that's my feeling on tdpatriots- I kinda wanna wait and see what happens to me, because if he's correct and nothing bad happens to me, and I'm still alive- that's a pretty useful thing for someone to take the time to do- to create a semi-confirmed Townie, and it's not something I see Scum as taking the time to want to do. It'd be much easier to try to convince everyone NOT to trust me, and just to lynch me for information. So that's why I'm willing to trust the guy a little bit right now, as him and molefan have both been probably the most helpful towards my... condition than anyone else here so far. Now if you dont' believe my claim, well that's a whole 'nother can of worms, and I guess then it means squat. But those are my thoughts for right now with the information I have.
That being said- I don't like the Hockey vs. Darth lynch.
-I don't really see the early arguments vs. Hockey - ie: Hockey vs. Buff. That felt more of a semantics issue- as it was a Day 1 vote, and Hockey said it was her gut, then wasn't then was, and buffy seemed to take it a bit more personally. I can understand that totally.
However, her accusation/vote vs. Darth today was just bizarre. At this point, she's been a vote leader for a while, and she's only had 2 votes on her the whole week- I think that's poor play on OUR part and at this point, I'm discounting it as a crap vote for just trying to save her own neck by picking on the guy with footwear problems.
I kinda see it as how you voted for me, hawkeye, but much more poorly done. That being said, she's been evasive all Day and trying to wriggle free of the Noose, so I'm thinking her vote is more of self-preservation trying to start another one.
So I don't like the Darth Lynch, and I don't really like the Hockey lynch as I feel it's just silly- she's being voted because she's been a target and that's really it.
My current suspicious people are still: Mr. Blockey- I don't buy that vote movement in the tdpatriots vs. FCoD thing from Day 2, and I still dislike the scummy commentary of how he knew SDM was Town. Storyteller- but that's more a PFK issue, so I don't think he's the play for toDay. But you're right, Hawkie, If i were a cop, maybe our best bet would be to check him out instead of me, though I wouldn't mind the looksie on me. FCoD- he becomes suspicious by proxy due to Mr. Blockey's pushing the votes away from him. That and I didn't like his stance/reaction to Hockeymonkey/Buffy-. I think the Hockey/Darth thing is a possible case of townie on Townie actions, one with a poorly reasoned vote- and that could lead to their demise, but it feels like FCoD is actually taking ADVANTAGE of the poorly reasoned vote.
I really don't want to see Darth hang though- as it's a shit vote. But I don't really see the hockeymonkey case, and it feels TOO opportunistic to me.
So" Vote FCoD
As Darth vs. Hockey just seems... well too "nice" of a lynch. Hockey did a stupid thing- so we're all going to jump on her for it? It is, as Pollux oil mentioned in the Cecilvania on Day 1- it seems too "perfect" of a lynch. I don't like it. So I'm gonna have to make this my final vote, as I've got to head out and pick up my family, and I'll prolly not be back in time for the End of the Day- hopefully I can, but I think I've done enough in the past at the end of the Day.
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Post by Holy Moley! on Jun 12, 2008 15:05:52 GMT -5
Actually let me answer my own question here with a quote:
Merestil Haye, day one: "It seems reasonable to suggest that Corporeal demons are vulnerable to regular methods of elimination - that is, if we lynch one, or if a Vig cuts the head off one they're out of the game, and so on. It's been suggested that they are a bunch of Godfathers, but that's not necessarily the case. We know they react to Holy Water just as humans do, but we don't know that Holy Water is the only way to identify demons."
How do we KNOW that Holy Water will affect demons, as well as the incorporeal possessed?
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RoOsh
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Post by RoOsh on Jun 12, 2008 15:07:00 GMT -5
Thus, Roosh, do not offer me milk. I will not accept it. In fact, I will specifically look with great suspicion upon you for offering me milk if you do so at any point, given this warning and that I will not accept it. I will advise you if and when my view on the matter changes. Ugh. You're doing this again. I made a post about this- as I thought you might actually have troubles in real life as you weren't posting on either game thread. But here you are yet again at the end of the day to read the entire thing and comment and vote late to the party.... I REALLY REALLY Hope you can fix your schedule or something, because this is the MOST UNHELPFUL behavior pattern for a game- you're basically lurking the ENTIRE week until the last Day and then commenting and voting- you'll NEVER really get suspicion, because it's pointless, it's worse than Mhaye's delayed vote, because at least he talks during the week. So I REALLY hope toMorrow you can start talking at the START or MIDDLE of the week, because this showing up on the last Day and fulfilling the post requirements and commentating AFTER all the mess has been dealt with is REALLY unhelpful and it makes it impossible to try to get a read on you. Jeebus, Blaster- what's going on? Is this a new play style you're adopting for this game? Or are you seriously only free on Thursdays?
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Post by Rysto on Jun 12, 2008 15:09:54 GMT -5
Wonderful. Our top two lynch candidates are a claimed doctor and a claimed possessed townie. Screw it.
Unvote Czech Vote misterblockey
Mostly for the reasons enumerated already by Roosh and tdpats.
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Post by Holy Moley! on Jun 12, 2008 15:10:48 GMT -5
Actually, I'm an idiot tonight, and can't remember the original color:
"Not even holy water affects them (demons)."
In other words, any demon masquerading as possessed who was tested with holy water would immediately be exposed as a liar.
I don't think a demon would have taken that risk, therefore unvote Darth Sensitive.
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Blaster Master
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Post by Blaster Master on Jun 12, 2008 15:13:22 GMT -5
FOA, while I'm thinking about it, as of yet, I still find you to be the most suspicious person out there for the very same reasons I've been on you already, so... Vote FlyingCowOfDoomFCOD, I think it's funny that you've jumped to the conclusion that HM and I are involved in some tricky scum plot together. I understand considering that as a possibility, as I am certainly far from confirmed for most players, but it just seems silly to assert that it must be the case. OMGUS much? OMFG you are NOT going to twist my words around AGAIN. WHERE did I assert that you and HG were involved in a scum plot? This is the THIRD time you've said I did something I didn't, and frankly, it's pissing me off. Here's the relevant part of the only post I've made that mentions both of you: At any rate, we're running out of time and don't have much to go on. I'm still comfortable with a tdpatriots lynch, but I am getting more suspicious of hockeymonkey's pursuit of bufftabby. I am tempted to think that the two of them are both scum trying to pull something like storyteller did, but then again buff is an un-counterclaimed mason. We've got WIFOM coming out the ass. Show me where I "jumped to a conclusion". Show me where I "asserted" that it "must be the case". If you can't, then please stop making shit up. Since you've done this to me THREE times, I have to assume that either you're on a mission to make me look bad or you're posting without actually reading what other people are saying. Which is it? --FCOD p.s. I realize that my tone in this post is hostile, but I am damn sick of bufftabby's gross exaggerations of my words. I can look up the other two times she's done it for anyone that thinks I'm going a little over the top. The point here is, you didn't explicitly say "I think you're in a plot together". Instead, you seem to throw it out there as a possibility but then immediately discount it. It looks like you're trying to sew distrust in her. Bottom line is, yes, she's an unclaimed mason. We know that mason claims are VERY dangerous claims, particularly that early when there's no way for scum to assess whether or not there are masons and how believable their claims are. The fact that she hasn't been counter-claimed at this point means either that she's truthful, or there's no masons. While the latter is possible, it's unlikely. Now, I appreciate that, if you're town, that you might not fully trust her, but that statement that you quote seems much more consistent with sewing distrust of a nearly confirmed townie than it does with genuine paranoia. Frankly, I'm not buying it.
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Post by tdpatriots12 on Jun 12, 2008 15:17:36 GMT -5
Hey Czech, gonna get a vote in today buddy?
FOS Czech
If you're RL busy enough to be missing three votes (hey, there's still time) you probably should have already been asking for a sub out of the game, so maybe something else is up? Regardless, missing two votes and being this late on a third by itself is worthy of an FOS.
/warning, post implies "my internet went down for a couple of days and that's all it took for me to think about subbing out" argument //well, I guess it's explicit now ///I was going to have to break out the Fark tradition of slashies sooner or later
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Post by The Real FCOD on Jun 12, 2008 15:23:51 GMT -5
So Roosh...you're suspicious of me because Mr Blockey switch his vote from me at the last minute? Because we disagree about the HM/ Bufftabby thing? Do you actually have any real reasons to suspect me? The point here is, you didn't explicitly say "I think you're in a plot together". Instead, you seem to throw it out there as a possibility but then immediately discount it. It looks like you're trying to sew distrust in her. Bottom line is, yes, she's an unclaimed mason. We know that mason claims are VERY dangerous claims, particularly that early when there's no way for scum to assess whether or not there are masons and how believable their claims are. The fact that she hasn't been counter-claimed at this point means either that she's truthful, or there's no masons. While the latter is possible, it's unlikely. Now, I appreciate that, if you're town, that you might not fully trust her, but that statement that you quote seems much more consistent with sewing distrust of a nearly confirmed townie than it does with genuine paranoia. Frankly, I'm not buying it. I'm not trying to sow distrust, I'm writing my thoughts out as they come to me. See, I believe that we should all post frequently and say everything that is on our minds. Can you blame me for not trusting someone that has THREE TIMES twisted my words to make it seem like I am doing something I'm not? The only reason I haven't voted for her is because by all logical reasoning she is a Mason, unless there are no Masons in the game, which I consider to be extremely unlikely. Are you suspicious of me for any other reasons? --FCOD
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Blaster Master
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Post by Blaster Master on Jun 12, 2008 15:34:19 GMT -5
Ugh. You're doing this again. I made a post about this- as I thought you might actually have troubles in real life as you weren't posting on either game thread. But here you are yet again at the end of the day to read the entire thing and comment and vote late to the party.... I REALLY REALLY Hope you can fix your schedule or something, because this is the MOST UNHELPFUL behavior pattern for a game- you're basically lurking the ENTIRE week until the last Day and then commenting and voting- you'll NEVER really get suspicion, because it's pointless, it's worse than Mhaye's delayed vote, because at least he talks during the week. So I REALLY hope toMorrow you can start talking at the START or MIDDLE of the week, because this showing up on the last Day and fulfilling the post requirements and commentating AFTER all the mess has been dealt with is REALLY unhelpful and it makes it impossible to try to get a read on you. Jeebus, Blaster- what's going on? Is this a new play style you're adopting for this game? Or are you seriously only free on Thursdays? Quite frankly, I'm surprised I hadn't gotten more comments, as you are correct in stating that this is the third time I have done this. Is this a new playstyle? Well, would you believe me or would it even matter if I said yes or no? However, considering that I'm still active in the other game, I'll leave that to you. The only thing I'll say in that regard is what I've said before, that I do make a deliberate attempt to vary my playstyle from game to game. Beyond that, I am not inclined to explain exactly what methodologies I use to do so; and I'm sure you can appreciate that logic. However, this is a legitimate concern. As I've said before, I will never feign real-life obligations or interference because I consider that to be poor form. It so happens to be the case that this has been an interesting week and I hadn't even gotten a couple minutes to skim the game, muchless post, until today. Thus, it is difficult to personally assess whether I would have played much, if any, differently if the circumstances were different.
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Blaster Master
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Now 34.788% less repellant to Sharks! :( [on:I WANT TO DIE!][of:I WANT TO LIVE!]
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Post by Blaster Master on Jun 12, 2008 15:40:33 GMT -5
So Roosh...you're suspicious of me because Mr Blockey switch his vote from me at the last minute? Because we disagree about the HM/ Bufftabby thing? Do you actually have any real reasons to suspect me? The point here is, you didn't explicitly say "I think you're in a plot together". Instead, you seem to throw it out there as a possibility but then immediately discount it. It looks like you're trying to sew distrust in her. Bottom line is, yes, she's an unclaimed mason. We know that mason claims are VERY dangerous claims, particularly that early when there's no way for scum to assess whether or not there are masons and how believable their claims are. The fact that she hasn't been counter-claimed at this point means either that she's truthful, or there's no masons. While the latter is possible, it's unlikely. Now, I appreciate that, if you're town, that you might not fully trust her, but that statement that you quote seems much more consistent with sewing distrust of a nearly confirmed townie than it does with genuine paranoia. Frankly, I'm not buying it. I'm not trying to sow distrust, I'm writing my thoughts out as they come to me. See, I believe that we should all post frequently and say everything that is on our minds. Can you blame me for not trusting someone that has THREE TIMES twisted my words to make it seem like I am doing something I'm not? The only reason I haven't voted for her is because by all logical reasoning she is a Mason, unless there are no Masons in the game, which I consider to be extremely unlikely. Are you suspicious of me for any other reasons? By all accounts, it is reasonable to conclude she is very likely to be town, thus I find it unlikely that she is "twisting your words" which, to me, implies nefarious intent, and is much more likely to be either misunderstanding you, you're doing a poor job explaining yourself, or she's picking up on some things. And yes, I'm suspicious of you for another reason, primarily your vote for Hal on Day One. I explained my reasoning then. My suspicion has not been assuaged since that time and, as of yet, I'm not inclined to find any of the other major candidates any more suspicious than that made me. That said, I still have a few pages left up on which to catch ( ), so maybe my view of the other votees will change.
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