Santo Rugger
Mome Rath
The Obviously Innocent Townie
The Rugger formerly known as Pygmy[on:BYAHH!][of:BYAHH?]
Posts: 3
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Day One
Sept 24, 2008 16:35:32 GMT -5
Post by Santo Rugger on Sept 24, 2008 16:35:32 GMT -5
Ok meta-gaming here. A lot of you guys know story pretty well from playing with him and making up games. I seem to recall from reading the Batman spoiler thread that he was pretty miffed that Dotchan was totally screwed over because she investigated as a PFK when she was actually an innocent survivor who would have won with town or scum. Would he have put a Miller in one of his games? No offense, but story is kind of a perfectionist who complains about games that he didn't figure out or that he felt was unbalanced and that "he had no chance of winning". There's no reason, IMHO of course, that a Survivor should investigate as anything other than PFK. The town was instructed to get rid of malicious PFK. Correct me if I'm wrong, but dotchan didn't investigate as malicious. Regardless, there's still at least a small amount of gastardry going on here, based on my role.
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Day One
Sept 24, 2008 16:36:05 GMT -5
Post by sinjin on Sept 24, 2008 16:36:05 GMT -5
MHaye thanks for the response. I totally blew past the part that a Miller wins with town. So, sucks to be lynched because of an investigation but you can still win in the end. Unbelievable by true, I thought about this all the way home from work today.
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Day One
Sept 24, 2008 16:39:05 GMT -5
Post by Pleonast on Sept 24, 2008 16:39:05 GMT -5
You keep talking about how lynching you will hurt the Town because you are a Townie. That will never convince anyone to change their vote. Townies don't know you're telling the truth, and those who do (the Scum) have no reason to change their vote. You'll have to convince us that it's too risky to lynch you, or that someone else will give us better odds. Wait wait wait... "those who do know I'm town?" How are the scum supposed to know that I'm town? I could be a malicious PFK as far as they're concerned. Hell, if I were scum I'd probably suspect it myself given my title claim (which BTW is why I didn't give that particular piece of information out early on.) Have you got any particular evidence that the scum have somebody onboard who is able to confirm my alignment?And to answer your points, the role title of "Arcade" suggests to me a malicious PFK, not a townie. In which case I'd have BOTH sides after me, instead of just one if I kept quiet. Once again, is there a single person here who'd not have done the same thing? Sorry, I should have said "know you are not Scum". Scum are happy to lynch anyone who isn't Scum. But when it comes to their own kill, it's better for them to kill a Townie with a powerful role. That is, even in a no-vanilla game, some roles are more powerful then others. With your claimed power and villain name, Scum would be foolish to Night-kill you (when they could kill me instead. ). Is there a reason you assume Scum need to kill survivors? I've been assuming they would not need to.
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Day One
Sept 24, 2008 16:40:20 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Sept 24, 2008 16:40:20 GMT -5
Wait wait wait... "those who do know I'm town?" How are the scum supposed to know that I'm town? Molefan makes an important point, and I'm glad he brought it up because I saw people making this mistake late in the Gastard Game and it cost them dearly. Unless we get evidence to the contrary, we must assume that there are PFKs out there and make sure our reasoning takes them into account. Remember: an anti-scum action isn't necessarily the same as a pro-Town action; it's just as much a pro-PFK action. In the specific case of Pleonast's statement, his argument generalizes just fine, he was just wording it as if this is a two-faction game. A bit sloppy, but not a scum slip IMO.
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Day One
Sept 24, 2008 16:41:56 GMT -5
Post by sinjin on Sept 24, 2008 16:41:56 GMT -5
Regardless, there's still at least a small amount of gastardry going on here, based on my role. Oh I totally think there's a bit of gastardy going on as well.
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Day One
Sept 24, 2008 16:43:53 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Sept 24, 2008 16:43:53 GMT -5
The town was instructed to get rid of malicious PFK. Correct me if I'm wrong, but dotchan didn't investigate as malicious. My investigations didn't distinguish between "malicious" and "non-malicious". sinjin makes a good point about the Miller, although in the case of a Survivor making them a Miller Survivor makes the win condition much, much more difficult. A Townie Miller can still win even if he gets lynched, so I'm not sure if story would object to a Miller.
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Day One
Sept 24, 2008 16:48:40 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Sept 24, 2008 16:48:40 GMT -5
See, this is the mindset that I never realized people had. I think that this sort of analysis is a tool, and a useful one, but that it gives an incompete picture, and frequently will point in incorrect directions. Also, it's less fun, but that might just be me. Well, the part that makes it lead in correct directions, as well as making it fun, is to figure out who's leading (and why) and who's following (and why), and their motivations. Unless a particular game cracks and a strategy specific to that game/situation is developed, I almost feel like that's our only tool. Why, you ask? Scum can do and say whatever the hell they feel like it (especially on Day 1). Granted, later in the game things will stop making sense and fitting together if they are making patently false claims. Aside from claims, though, my question stands, "What is substance; what is real?" Well, some of this comes from me not being a math person. I don't think in terms of numbers. At least not well. So looking at raw numbers doesn't do much for me. (speaking of which, will you write up the formula for tdn's game already. I am sitting in a holding pattern on that one waiting for you. ) Beyond that, everything can be manipulated. Relationships, vote patterns, everything. When I have been scum, going back to Pirates, the first thing I always try to do is get the other scum to work with me on manipulating the voting record so it says something other than the truth. I have yet to get a scum group to follow me on this, but once other scum get on board with calculated voting plans I feel that the usefullness of this sort of voting analysis will change. To counter this (as town) we need to start looking at things from a variety of perspectives. And one of those perspectives is, how do people act when placed in a high pressure situation? There behavior at that point is telling, and can help to weed out a lot of false positives. This has the added bonus of getting the player under scrutiny to talk. And as I have said time and again, if you get scum talking enough they will eventually slip. Always. Couple this with looking at player motivation and if actions those players have taken are pro-scum or not (NOT anti town, anti town behavior means nothing since all players engage in anti town behavior from time to time) and then add up the pieces. Most evidence will be circumstancial, but when one player has a whole lot more circumstantial evidence against them than anyone else, you lynch them. This has been my working theory for how to play the game for a while. I have a tendancy to process a lot of this unconsiously so I sometimes have a hard time explainig why something pings me the way it does these days, but it is usually a lot of little things rather than one big thing.
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Day One
Sept 24, 2008 16:58:19 GMT -5
Post by Idle Thoughts on Sept 24, 2008 16:58:19 GMT -5
I think:
Molefan is scum KidV is scum Peeker is Town scum KidV wants an excuse to change his vote from scum Molefan to Town Peeker.
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Day One
Sept 24, 2008 16:58:54 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Sept 24, 2008 16:58:54 GMT -5
UATU ENJOYS THOSE WHO ARE TRYING TO SNEAK INTO HIS HEAD AND POKE AROUND IN THERE; THEY AMUSE HIM GREATLY
ALSO: ALL PLAYERS WHO ARE ALLOWED TO SPEAK OFF-BOARD, WHOMSOEVER MIGHT BE PERMITTED TO SPEAK OFF-BOARD, WERE PERMITTED TO SPEAK OFF-BOARD DURING NIGHT ZERO.
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Santo Rugger
Mome Rath
The Obviously Innocent Townie
The Rugger formerly known as Pygmy[on:BYAHH!][of:BYAHH?]
Posts: 3
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Day One
Sept 24, 2008 17:00:55 GMT -5
Post by Santo Rugger on Sept 24, 2008 17:00:55 GMT -5
Sounds great, but going back to my original point:
How does that correlate to talking substance on Day 1?
I mean, the way I'm reading your posts, your ideal (albeit non-realistic) solution would be for each player to spend an Hour in the hot seat. We'd all grill them, and then when we were all satisfied, we'd all move on to the next person. A technique that we've used lately seems to be, "Aha! You said alligator, but it was obviously a crocodile. Only scum would have known it was actually a crocodile! Burn, scum!!!" which seems identical, but slower. The vote counts rise, and the player is forced to claim.
You admit just about everything can be manipulated, so other than grilling people via whatever the method of choice is, how does an individual generate substance on Day 1? This has confused me since my very first game, and I still don't get it.
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Day One
Sept 24, 2008 17:01:30 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Sept 24, 2008 17:01:30 GMT -5
<by the way, if at any point this Uatu thing gets stale and you start thinking, "for Crap's sake, story, stop being such a douche," please feel free to say so. I'm just being goofy>
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Day One
Sept 24, 2008 17:17:12 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on Sept 24, 2008 17:17:12 GMT -5
I think: Molefan is scum KidV is scum Peeker is Town scum KidV wants an excuse to change his vote from scum Molefan to Town Peeker. Ah! A duel, then, you scoundrel! Wet noodles at 2 paces? No, seriously, I'm more than willing to lynch Molefan. It's just that Peeker has put himself just as high on my list, but doesn't appear to have drawn as much heat for his claim as you and Mole. I think his name needs to be out there too.
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Day One
Sept 24, 2008 17:26:17 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Sept 24, 2008 17:26:17 GMT -5
Sounds great, but going back to my original point: How does that correlate to talking substance on Day 1? Sorry, I got side tracked. I mean, the way I'm reading your posts, your ideal (albeit non-realistic) solution would be for each player to spend an Hour in the hot seat. We'd all grill them, and then when we were all satisfied, we'd all move on to the next person. A technique that we've used lately seems to be, "Aha! You said alligator, but it was obviously a crocodile. Only scum would have known it was actually a crocodile! Burn, scum!!!" which seems identical, but slower. The vote counts rise, and the player is forced to claim. You admit just about everything can be manipulated, so other than grilling people via whatever the method of choice is, how does an individual generate substance on Day 1? This has confused me since my very first game, and I still don't get it. Well I suppose trying to disect the game setup would be my personal preference. I know it makes UATU laugh (and I like having UATU in the game personally) but I think it is actually important to try and figure out the setup in a closed setup game and to try and get into the mods heads. Along these lines I have tried to get a conversation about knowledge of the legacy virus going, but was ignored. There has been some basic talk about how closely powers correlate to canon. We could start talking about the opening color. All of these have been started in some way, but fizzled. In a way I almost miss the whole random vs. non random debate we always had on day 1, because at least then there was something else going on other than the singleminded lynching of the first person who did soemthing odd. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with the fact that we have pushed mole or Idle. My problem is that we haven't really done much else and only a very few people actually participated in those conversations. (on top of the fact that I think they are both incorrect, but that is beside the point for the purpose of this conversation.) There is lots of stuff out there to get us talking. The main point is to get people talking and talking on a variety of subjects.
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Day One
Sept 24, 2008 17:28:47 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Sept 24, 2008 17:28:47 GMT -5
UATU ENJOYS THOSE WHO ARE TRYING TO SNEAK INTO HIS HEAD AND POKE AROUND IN THERE; THEY AMUSE HIM GREATLYALSO: ALL PLAYERS WHO ARE ALLOWED TO SPEAK OFF-BOARD, WHOMSOEVER MIGHT BE PERMITTED TO SPEAK OFF-BOARD, WERE PERMITTED TO SPEAK OFF-BOARD DURING NIGHT ZERO. [/size] How about toDay? Is Day talk allowed for anyone who is allowed to speak off board?
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Merestil Haye
FGM
Grudge Keeper
[on:Slumming it in the Middle-Earth][of:In the halls of Manw
Posts: 1,077
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Day One
Sept 24, 2008 17:32:42 GMT -5
Post by Merestil Haye on Sept 24, 2008 17:32:42 GMT -5
Talk to me about the Legacy Virus. What was it? Give me some info so that I can get a handle on it.
(This is a general request, not restricted to NAF, although it was inspired by his post.)
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Day One
Sept 24, 2008 17:34:18 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Sept 24, 2008 17:34:18 GMT -5
UATU ENJOYS THOSE WHO ARE TRYING TO SNEAK INTO HIS HEAD AND POKE AROUND IN THERE; THEY AMUSE HIM GREATLYALSO: ALL PLAYERS WHO ARE ALLOWED TO SPEAK OFF-BOARD, WHOMSOEVER MIGHT BE PERMITTED TO SPEAK OFF-BOARD, WERE PERMITTED TO SPEAK OFF-BOARD DURING NIGHT ZERO. [/size] How about toDay? Is Day talk allowed for anyone who is allowed to speak off board?[/quote] Night Zero was an exception to ordinary game rules. We are now playing by what will be the standard rules for the remainder of the game. The rules regarding off-board discussion (and other matters) may or may not be constant for every type of player, but every player knows their rules.
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Day One
Sept 24, 2008 17:38:42 GMT -5
Post by Høøpy Frøød on Sept 24, 2008 17:38:42 GMT -5
In our defense, I think dot was the only non-malicious PFK in the game. Nice to see the terminology is confusing one of the mods. That's what I thought at first as well, up until Roosh corrected me. You had five types of PFK: Helpful PFK (Dotchan AKA Catwoman, survivor), she gave town an extra body against the scum. She won with anybody but Hal. PFK/Townie (NAF AKA Penguin, won with the town as a mason, or stole the win with the masons) PFK that wouldn't end the game should they win, but everyone else would settle for 2nd place battle (Hal Briston AKA Riddler) PFK that were a threat to town and scum and would end the game should they win (Ryjae AKA Mad Hatter, Mad Bomber) Malicious PFK (CIAS AKA Hush, Night Serial Killer; Rugger AKA Joker, Day Serial Killer) Only the last two needed to be dead along with all scum for Town to win. The others could have been kept alive competing with town and scum for their various win conditions. But there was no way for town to figure that out. All PFK were investigated as simply PFK.
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Day One
Sept 24, 2008 17:44:57 GMT -5
Post by Pleonast on Sept 24, 2008 17:44:57 GMT -5
NAF makes a good point. I would like to open up the information about the game. Unfortunately, I have no information about any viruses.
But following the philosophy, I reread the "color" of my role PM. I believe I can offer this quote without making a claim:Not knowing who the Horsemen were when I read this, I just took it as a generic "expect friendly fire" warning. I'm not so sure now. Any comments from our comic gurus? Anyone want to offer similar or different color from their role PM? (But be careful! Other paragraphs of my color are revealing; yours may be too.)
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Day One
Sept 24, 2008 17:45:59 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Sept 24, 2008 17:45:59 GMT -5
[/size] How about toDay? Is Day talk allowed for anyone who is allowed to speak off board?[/quote] Night Zero was an exception to ordinary game rules. We are now playing by what will be the standard rules for the remainder of the game. The rules regarding off-board discussion (and other matters) may or may not be constant for every type of player, but every player knows their rules.[/quote] Ah ha. Thank you much Uatu. Ok so in that case I think the safe assumption is that scum can conspire together during the Day. Is anyone able to tell me that it is more dangerous to assume that?
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Day One
Sept 24, 2008 17:46:35 GMT -5
Post by Høøpy Frøød on Sept 24, 2008 17:46:35 GMT -5
<by the way, if at any point this Uatu thing gets stale and you start thinking, "for Crap's sake, story, stop being such a douche," please feel free to say so. I'm just being goofy> I have no problems with it. It adds amusing color. (Note: I'm not saying this to suck up to the mod.) (Well, okay, I'm not saying this just to suck up to the mod.)
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Day One
Sept 24, 2008 17:48:51 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Sept 24, 2008 17:48:51 GMT -5
PFK/Townie (NAF AKA Penguin, won with the town as a mason, or stole the win with the masons) Point of order. My understanding was that I won solo not with the other masons. I told them we could share the win, but they would have lost too. Boozy am I wrong about that?
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Day One
Sept 24, 2008 17:50:15 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Sept 24, 2008 17:50:15 GMT -5
Talk to me about the Legacy Virus. What was it? Give me some info so that I can get a handle on it. (This is a general request, not restricted to NAF, although it was inspired by his post.) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_virusI have no information about the virus the applies to the game though.
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Day One
Sept 24, 2008 17:55:50 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Sept 24, 2008 17:55:50 GMT -5
(But be careful! Other paragraphs of my color are revealing; yours may be too.) Ah. I would be more careful than Pleo was even. It is interesting that everything in the game so far has mapped to mutants, and not Marvel comics in general. But the Skrull and S.H.I.E.L.D. aren't really mutant related. Interesting.
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Day One
Sept 24, 2008 18:11:51 GMT -5
Post by Greedy Smurf on Sept 24, 2008 18:11:51 GMT -5
Okay, so I'm kinda sort caught up.
While its probably way past relevant, I'm a bit of a marvel nerd, and know the avengers/spidey side of things very well. The X-men side of the house not so well, but still far more than the average joe on the street.
At this point it seems nothing is going to stop Molefan from being lynched. Which is a shame because I for one would have liked to see what the effect of the candy would have been.
Despite read through the day I didn't have the time to do any major analysis.
But so that I'm on the record I'll Vote peekercpa.
There is not a lot of meat to the reasoning for the vote, Miller is tough gig no doubt, so I can't really second guess his motive in claiming on Day 1. But it could be a nice claim from a scum who isn't looking to make it to the end game anyway. For a little bit of risk of being jumped on today, if he dodges that, he will probably get a little bit of an easy ride for a few days at least. And has pre-empted any investigators - with a "I told you I investigate scum"
So far from convincing I know, but it's all I've got to base a vote on at this stage.
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Day One
Sept 24, 2008 18:19:04 GMT -5
Post by Holy Moley! on Sept 24, 2008 18:19:04 GMT -5
Just in case I haven't already, unvote.
vote peekerpca. Sorry peek, but as I said, there's about a ten million per cent greater chance of you being scum than me from my perspective.
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Day One
Sept 24, 2008 18:26:06 GMT -5
Post by Pleonast on Sept 24, 2008 18:26:06 GMT -5
(But be careful! Other paragraphs of my color are revealing; yours may be too.) Ah. I would be more careful than Pleo was even. It is interesting that everything in the game so far has mapped to mutants, and not Marvel comics in general. But the Skrull and S.H.I.E.L.D. aren't really mutant related. Interesting. Did I reveal too much? If you think you see something, you might as well tell us all, because the Scum will figure it out for themselves. [/paranoia] Or if you're referring to simply revealing anything, well I figure if enough of us give something (being careful not to reveal info about powers), we may be able to puzzle out something. Actually, Townies should give a full quote of their role PM just before they hit the gallows. Nothing to lose at that point, and I don't think the mods will tell us as much as the PM will.
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Day One
Sept 24, 2008 18:27:03 GMT -5
Post by Høøpy Frøød on Sept 24, 2008 18:27:03 GMT -5
Ah. I would be more careful than Pleo was even. It is interesting that everything in the game so far has mapped to mutants, and not Marvel comics in general. But the Skrull and S.H.I.E.L.D. aren't really mutant related. Interesting. My character's a mutant as well.
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Gir!
FGM
EVIL Demon Goddess Mod
What? Kat is sweet and innocent!
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Day One
Sept 24, 2008 18:33:05 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Sept 24, 2008 18:33:05 GMT -5
Hmmm....let's see who you folks are working on killing...
Day One vote count:
molefan1981 (11) - Pleonast; Darth Sensitive; Chucara; Kid Vermicious; CatinaSuit; peekercpa; Boozahol Squid, PI; Idle Thoughts; hawkeyeop; sinjin, Nanook Pleonast (1) - NAF peekercpa (3) - Hoopy Frood, Greedy Smurf, molefan
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Day One
Sept 24, 2008 18:33:26 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Sept 24, 2008 18:33:26 GMT -5
Ah. I would be more careful than Pleo was even. It is interesting that everything in the game so far has mapped to mutants, and not Marvel comics in general. But the Skrull and S.H.I.E.L.D. aren't really mutant related. Interesting. Did I reveal too much? If you think you see something, you might as well tell us all, because the Scum will figure it out for themselves. [/paranoia] Or if you're referring to simply revealing anything, well I figure if enough of us give something (being careful not to reveal info about powers), we may be able to puzzle out something. Actually, Townies should give a full quote of their role PM just before they hit the gallows. Nothing to lose at that point, and I don't think the mods will tell us as much as the PM will. Well I am torn, but yeah I think you said too much. I am at least 80% certain of your character, and there are only a couple of powers that I see fitting that character if I am right. But I might not be. Should I just come out and state my suspicion? It would basically be forcing a name claim from you if I am right. If you are ok with that I will say what I am guessing at.
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Day One
Sept 24, 2008 18:34:03 GMT -5
Post by Holy Moley! on Sept 24, 2008 18:34:03 GMT -5
I think: Molefan is scum KidV is scum Peeker is Town scum KidV wants an excuse to change his vote from scum Molefan to Town Peeker. Ah! A duel, then, you scoundrel! Wet noodles at 2 paces? No, seriously, I'm more than willing to lynch Molefan. It's just that Peeker has put himself just as high on my list, but doesn't appear to have drawn as much heat for his claim as you and Mole. I think his name needs to be out there too. Gee, thanks for the vote of confidence there KidV!
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