Hockey Monkey!
Borogrove
This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker over who killed who.
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Day One
Jul 27, 2007 18:37:55 GMT -5
Post by Hockey Monkey! on Jul 27, 2007 18:37:55 GMT -5
Just in case this becomes a sort of meta-game issue, some of us keep their browser open on their desktop and check in when work allows. It may look like we are online all the time, but we might not be actively checking the thread at the moment.
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Gir!
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What? Kat is sweet and innocent!
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Day One
Jul 27, 2007 18:42:32 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Jul 27, 2007 18:42:32 GMT -5
That's why I was hesitant to bring it up yesterday. Apparently, it bothered me enough for me to still remember it today, so I gave in and said it.
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Death By Irony
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The Former Mandate of Heaven/Current Gastard Night Mod
I'm my own mind-altering substance!
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Day One
Jul 27, 2007 18:42:45 GMT -5
Post by Death By Irony on Jul 27, 2007 18:42:45 GMT -5
Just in case this becomes a sort of meta-game issue, some of us keep their browser open on their desktop and check in when work allows. It may look like we are online all the time, but we might not be actively checking the thread at the moment. IIRC, you can change your login settings to keep you on for a certain period of time so that if you're really inactive you can just idle out. Right now I'm signed on for the next 20+ hours or so, but I'm pretty much just playing video games and following the most recent posts.
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Day One
Jul 27, 2007 18:43:26 GMT -5
Post by JSexton on Jul 27, 2007 18:43:26 GMT -5
Just in case this becomes a sort of meta-game issue, some of us keep their browser open on their desktop and check in when work allows. It may look like we are online all the time, but we might not be actively checking the thread at the moment. :raises hand: between my always-on pc at home, and my much more frequent posting from work, I will pretty much be always logged in here, but not always actively reading.
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Hockey Monkey!
Borogrove
This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker over who killed who.
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Day One
Jul 27, 2007 18:53:47 GMT -5
Post by Hockey Monkey! on Jul 27, 2007 18:53:47 GMT -5
That's why I was hesitant to bring it up yesterday. Apparently, it bothered me enough for me to still remember it today, so I gave in and said it. It's good that you brought it up, because otherwise I wouldn't have thought to let people know that. I think Idle can explain how the users look according to if they are active or not. I don't want anyone to question why if I'm online have I not answered such and such post yet. I don't like having to log in and out, so I have mine set to stay logged in forever. I think I forgot the password anyway. ;D
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Gir!
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EVIL Demon Goddess Mod
What? Kat is sweet and innocent!
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Day One
Jul 27, 2007 18:54:48 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Jul 27, 2007 18:54:48 GMT -5
EBWOP: In Greedy's case, it wasn't an "Always Logged In" thing. He was there, and then not there, and then there again. (And then not there and then there, yes, I was obessively returning to the board over and over again, checking for new posts.) So either he logged off, or he's set up to expire after a certain length of time inactive or absent.
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Day One
Jul 27, 2007 19:54:41 GMT -5
Post by Idle Thoughts on Jul 27, 2007 19:54:41 GMT -5
I'm almost always logged in here because...er..well...I have no life and am always online.
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Day One
Jul 27, 2007 20:04:38 GMT -5
Post by capybara on Jul 27, 2007 20:04:38 GMT -5
So, FOS capybara for suggesting that we lynch claimed Geniuses--we shouldn't do that unless we think they're lying. Nice mischaracterization-- I've already explained that that was a devil's advocate, train-of-thought 'logical conclusion' response to Malacandra's suggestion that geniuses will play one side against the other for an endgame win, and I agreed that it's a bad idea in the very same post. Why don't you ask Malacandra what he meant by that in the first place? His statement seems to be attracting very little attention.
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Day One
Jul 27, 2007 20:23:22 GMT -5
Post by dnooman on Jul 27, 2007 20:23:22 GMT -5
Wow. I seem to generate more discussion by what I don't say than what I do.
I certainly haven't posted to this thread much, but that is due to two factors: not visiting the board often enough, and not having a whole lot of meaningful insight yet.
I have not been lurking in the typical sense of the word, that would mean I've been actively keeping up with the thread and just not posting. If I visit the thread once a day, there are 5 pages of quote-heavy reading to do when I get back. Clearly once a day is not nearly often enough to visit.
The last time I checked the thread Hockey Monkey had voted for me, and there were several other posts after that. I did not reply to Hockey Monkey's post because it was just to start some discussion (which I took to mean in general). Besides, there was no behavior I was being accused of, no words I had posted, or even a vibe that I could rebut. I suppose I could have said "I'm not crazy" and made some joke about only wanting a Pepsi. In retrospect, that would have at least prevented a few votes for me it seems.
I need to reread the past few pages because I saw my own name popping up so many times, that I just started skimming for it. I can't promise that I'll have a solid opinion of who I think is insane, but I'll at least have something.
As far as the guest post goes, it was not a scum plot. It was merely part of a scummy joke perpetrated by my roommate. He has, or I should say had, access to my lowest priority email account because it was the one I used when I signed him up for a TiVo account. I got him interested in these games when I was a werewolf in M1. He thought it would look like a joke post and not be taken seriously [punching roommate smiley]. He also signed me up for some type of internet/phone flirting service, so I have that going for me too. If I start getting mail from NAMBLA, I might have to kill him in his sleep.
Ok, back in a while with my analysis.
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Day One
Jul 27, 2007 20:47:04 GMT -5
Post by Hal Briston on Jul 27, 2007 20:47:04 GMT -5
Add me to the list of those who always has a dedicated browser window open on this thread... As far as the guest post goes, it was not a scum plot. It was merely part of a scummy joke perpetrated by my roommate. Oh please...do you really expect us to believe that?? What?
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Merestil Haye
FGM
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Day One
Jul 27, 2007 21:22:25 GMT -5
Post by Merestil Haye on Jul 27, 2007 21:22:25 GMT -5
Morning all. All I can say is, you think you have no life? I started my reread at just after midnight. What time is it now? 3:15am. I am whacked. My conclusions are a jumbled mass at the moment, and I really should sleep before voting, but one thing really stood iut as the single scummiest action of the Day so far. Still no sign of dnooman, huh? I'm sure there's an innocent reason, but let's turn up the gas a notch. Unvote JSexton. Vote dnooman. (Bleached). This does not sit well with me. Vote Malacandra. I just hope my fiancee doesn't read this... I promised I wouldn't be too late for bed. Ooops.
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Day One
Jul 27, 2007 21:31:30 GMT -5
Post by dnooman on Jul 27, 2007 21:31:30 GMT -5
Ok. After a reading of pages 8-11, I have a few thoughts.
Malacandra's third vote for me seems unnecessary, and nonsensical to me.
1) Let's assume he's town. Does he think that I'm just lurking until I get enough votes that I need to finally defend myself? Does he think that my low post count is me trying to hide, and therefore the most likely to be crazy? The two previous voters already made their point about trying to get me talking, his vote did nothing but tie up the standings and put his name on a bandwagon.
2) Let's assume he's scum/insane. He knows I'm town, but then chooses to tie up the score by getting on the wagon with the least reasoning for a lynch? That makes little sense to me, especially when Hockey had already said that her being on that wagon was very likely temporary.
I'm inclined to think that option one is more likely. Until Mal can more thoroughly explain his choice FOS Malacandra.
This brings me to the other poster I'm suspicious of Drain Bead. I think Storyteller summed it up nicely. But, I'm more concerned by her feelings of who is and who isn't town, namely myself. While I think that it's great that she has defended me somewhat, she could only truly know that I was town if she were scum.
I think Mal gave her a great reason to vote for him and she's looking for a slam dunk townie lynch. In order for it to be the other way around (Mal-scum, DB-town) Mal would have to have made a pretty ballsy move that could easily get him lynched.
So, I think I need to vote for Drain Bead
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Day One
Jul 27, 2007 22:18:37 GMT -5
Post by Idle Thoughts on Jul 27, 2007 22:18:37 GMT -5
15 of 19 players have voted so far.
drainbead (6) - storyteller0910, Roosh, Mad The Swine, Blaster Master, GreedySmurf, dnooman
Malacandra (4) - hockeymonkey, drainbead, cowgirl, mhaye
GreedySmurf (3) - JSexton, Hal Briston, DiggitCamera
dnooman (1) - Malacandra
Mhaye (1) - kat
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RoOsh
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Day One
Jul 27, 2007 22:37:48 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Jul 27, 2007 22:37:48 GMT -5
-snip- I think Mal gave her a great reason to vote for him and she's looking for a slam dunk townie lynch. In order for it to be the other way around (Mal-scum, DB-town) Mal would have to have made a pretty ballsy move that could easily get him lynched. /quote] That's about how I feel about this case.... Dnoo vs. Mal vs. Deadbead and we'll throw in Greedy too and one of those two could be scummy with the other getting votes by some scum tying to save their buds.
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RoOsh
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Day One
Jul 27, 2007 22:38:45 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Jul 27, 2007 22:38:45 GMT -5
Erm... any of those 4.
And quoting Dnoo there i guess. Man. that post went nuts. Shoulda previewed. Ah well.
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Day One
Jul 27, 2007 22:38:48 GMT -5
Post by Greedy Smurf on Jul 27, 2007 22:38:48 GMT -5
Well, looks like I get to sneak a little computer time today.
Don't have much too add, apart from commenting on my "logged in" status. I am mainly tracking the game through work, which means yes in fact one of my posts yesterday did take a good hour to actually write inbetween work requirements.
I do generally keep the browser window open in the background where I can, which may show me as online, but I'm not actively following the thread, I do on occasion have to shutdown the window though. Work takes precedence unfortunately.
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Day One
Jul 27, 2007 22:54:36 GMT -5
Post by capybara on Jul 27, 2007 22:54:36 GMT -5
Ok, I need to take a stand. So. For: a) the very strange third vote for the lurker AND b) the theory that geniuses are latent-scum (which *I* seem to be getting all the flack for), vote Mal until a better option appears. I'll review in the morning again.
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RoOsh
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Day One
Jul 27, 2007 23:02:21 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Jul 27, 2007 23:02:21 GMT -5
Ok, I need to take a stand. So. For: a) the very strange third vote for the lurker AND b) the theory that geniuses are latent-scum (which *I* seem to be getting all the flack for), vote Mal until a better option appears. I'll review in the morning again. By that are you saying that Mal is to blame for that idea, and that's why you're voting for him- because you're against the theory? Or just cuz you're blaming him for the Theory? (ie: is it a serious reason?) (Just making sure I read your post correctly)
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Day One
Jul 27, 2007 23:44:42 GMT -5
Post by capybara on Jul 27, 2007 23:44:42 GMT -5
By that are you saying that Mal is to blame for that idea, and that's why you're voting for him- because you're against the theory? Or just cuz you're blaming him for the Theory? (ie: is it a serious reason?) (Just making sure I read your post correctly) In short: no, I do not think that the geniuses are a threat-- certainly not at this time and I doubt ever-- or that we should string them up. I suspect Mal because of the way he framed the issue after Idle's clarification of the genius win conditions, and I am mildly, mildly curious about those who found my followup a red flag while they ignore Mal's part in the discussion. In long: Ok, Well, we start with Mal responding to Hal and JSexton , who posited after a short discussion and clarification from Idle that geniuses would be crazy to shoot for a genius win. Hmm... and now I'm torn between saying something that could be a Genius strategy hint, or keeping my wug shut. Well, let's assume the Genii actually do what it says on the tin, and are smarter than me. In that case, the possibility of a Genius win could be more realistic than in M3 owing to the point mentioned before - their ability to talk in secret. So I suppose they'd be trying to play both ends against the middle, if they can. If things look like going badly I suppose they can always revert to a Town win. . . . "Revert to a town win"? That's assuming that they start with nefarious intentions and will throw their hands up and side with the town in the worst case scenario, rather than what I and several have seen as more likely-- only starting to think about a genius win in the very unlikely event that it looks in the realm of possibility late in the game. This looks slightly like whipping up irrational paranoia to me. So I follow this up (admittedly stream of consciousness) with, . . .the chances that none of the geniuses get night killed or lynched by the end of the game is pretty small, even with them talking among themselves. It makes it a bit tricky knowing what to do with one when any of them claim, though-- keep them alive since they're technically town and the numbers count for us, or quickly kill them off to erase a long-shot genius win possibility? That might depend on how the game looks right then, but I think Jsexton and Hal have the right idea-- the geniuses would have to be very darn sure of their abilities if they wanted to start purposefully getting town killed off. I don't see it-- they would not only have to be bastards who love gloating inordinately, but also very lucky bastards. Can we assume that they'll play pro-town to keep it safe unless a nerd-win possibility develops late? . . .. Then you, Roosh , and Drainbead start focusing on my post as being one arguing for stringing up geniuses, when a careful read shows that I don't really argue that at all, unless we take half-sentences out of context. Blaster reads it as it was intended (in a generous way), Jsexton knows what I was trying to say. . . and then Dotchan FOSes me for it a thousand years later. So it makes me curious why why I'm getting the hairy eyeball while Mal gets a pass (my hyperbolic phrasing might be a bit sexier). . . but I'm not going to give him a pass.
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Day One
Jul 28, 2007 0:45:17 GMT -5
Post by Idle Thoughts on Jul 28, 2007 0:45:17 GMT -5
drainbead (6) - storyteller0910, Roosh, Mad The Swine, Blaster Master, GreedySmurf, dnooman
Malacandra (5) - hockeymonkey, drainbead, cowgirl, mhaye, capybara
GreedySmurf (3) - JSexton, Hal Briston, DiggitCamera
dnooman (1) - Malacandra
Mhaye (1) - kat
FOURTEEN hours remain of Day.
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Santo Rugger
Mome Rath
The Obviously Innocent Townie
The Rugger formerly known as Pygmy[on:BYAHH!][of:BYAHH?]
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Day One
Jul 28, 2007 1:20:10 GMT -5
Post by Santo Rugger on Jul 28, 2007 1:20:10 GMT -5
<snip> Greedy, my truly hope is that you're town, and that you don't get lynched today...no fun to have your first game experience be one of dying on Day One. However, what I hope for and what I believe are two different things. Vote Greedy Smurf. Why, Hal, would you vote for somebody who you thought was town? This is exacty the way I voted for people who I knew were town in M2, when I knew they were town, because I was scum. It is a way of putting in a vote for somebody when the votes start piling on, to slip in as part of the bandwagon, while still leaving yourself an out when they die and are revealed as citizens. Call it meta-gaming if you will, but that's how I played it, and at that time, in my mind, it was perfectly innocuous. I'd be dollars to donuts you thought the same thing when you made that post. Vote Hal BristonThe day is very close to ending, but I feel strongly enough about this that I will try to develop my case on the subject toMorrow.
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Day One
Jul 28, 2007 2:42:12 GMT -5
Post by Malacandra on Jul 28, 2007 2:42:12 GMT -5
All I said about the Geniuses is that they have an advantage that Masons don't have - the ability to talk to each other off-board - and that we should take this into account whether discussing the feasibility of Geniuses playing for an independent win. I ought to know of course that merely saying it would get people yelling "Scum tell!".
Since dnooman has shown up and posted at some length (and assuming it's not Night yet) I'll unvote dnooman. Of course everyone can turn their nose up at that and carp about it not making any difference when dnooman is a long way behind me in the polls.
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Day One
Jul 28, 2007 2:51:00 GMT -5
Post by Malacandra on Jul 28, 2007 2:51:00 GMT -5
Further on the dnooman hoo-hah, I do find it amusing that the people who were voting for him to get him to start posting immediately turn round and start voting for me instead for doing the same. That seems fair.
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Day One
Jul 28, 2007 2:52:06 GMT -5
Post by Malacandra on Jul 28, 2007 2:52:06 GMT -5
And duh me, there are still twelve hours of toDay left. It would help if I read the thread, wouldn't it?
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Merestil Haye
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Day One
Jul 28, 2007 6:38:44 GMT -5
Post by Merestil Haye on Jul 28, 2007 6:38:44 GMT -5
Afternoon folks. Having rested (well, a bit) I want to go back and chip in on some of the discussions we've had. My first topic is randomness. I'm not going to reopen the debate about random votes. I disagree with them, and won't respond to them; however, the use of them does not make the voter scum, any more than the anti-random camp are automatically Town. (Or vice versa, I suppose). Let's just agree to disagree and move on. The first point I did want to raise came from a post by JSexton on random voting. His second reason why he uses the technique is this. The other reason is it gives a way to shield cops. A cop can use a"random" vote to indicate a guilty result (without outing themselves), and if other townies are random voting, then it's much less obvious. This game is a day-start, so that doesn't apply, but it's kind of a habit. When I first read this, all sorts of alarms went off. it read like JS was advocating that the investigator random vote into the second Day, and that was the first time I'd ever heard anyone advocate day 2 random voting. When I reread it this morning, I noticed that he doesn't apply it to this game because it's a Day start. That shut all the alarms down. I'm only posting this to draw the investigator's attention to that sentence and ensure he didn't make the same mistake I did. (Yes, he, or as it may be she, probably realised it. This is just inn-sewer-rants). Moving on, we come to the discussion of "random" vs "pseudo-random." The idea that scum would instinctively try to avoid clumping and patterns, and thus show up more or less homogenised, is something that has appeared quite valid in two recent games (M3 and the Pirate game). It is something that they are going to be aware of though, as many of us watched and/or played in that game. I didn't really follow one thing BlaM said though. For instance, those who voted based on people who chose name colors, since not everyone has decided to go with one, it generates a subset of players that is not necessarily representative. In fact, I would hypothesize that chances are that scum are not randomly distributed between these two sets. Thus, even IF one can generate a truly random sample from the chosen subset, it is decidely NOT random versus the whole population. Further, in a case like this, obviously, it would be difficult to justify a random vote, based on color, for a color combination that is appealling, thus now allowing the scum to have potentially have had a hand in generating the sample population. If two parameters are totally independent, then I'd have thought there was no reason to assume anyone using (say) glowing text was a psycho (or conversely, that the psychos would avoid it so as not to stand out). I suppose what I'm saying is that these little conceits are unrelated to gameplay in any way and you can't draw conclusions about alignment from them. Of course, if the other parameter is related to gameplay, then there might be some observable differences. I agree with the concept; I just think you have to take care not to apply it indiscriminately. That's enough on randomness. Not only that, my stomach is clamouring for food. I'll be back.
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Gir!
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What? Kat is sweet and innocent!
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Day One
Jul 28, 2007 7:29:15 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Jul 28, 2007 7:29:15 GMT -5
Okay, I have about 10 minutes before I go out for breakfast and then I won't be back until the day is over. I do see that mhaye has posted a decent-sized post. I'll hold him to his promise to shore up the contibution level during the MV Night. At this point, he's a one-off vote, so I'd actually be safe leaving my vote there, unless I want to vote for one of the vote-leaders, since I don't have enough evidence for anyone to swing a bunch of people over to a new condidate before day's end, even if there was one I wanted to vote for. Right now, that's: And my ride's here, so I don't have time to explain why not the other two, but my reason for deciding on the final vote was this post (color removed): I'm going to have to throw a vote out there, but I'm torn by what to do. In the grand scheme of things I'm not sure how this will read to everyone but I'm being forced to Vote Drainbead. I don't have any specific factual, gut instinct or other reasons for doing so, and I apologise to you in advance Drainbead if you are a fellow towny, but I'm doing it to try and avoid being lynched myself. Unvote mhaye. vote Greedy Smurf#nosignature#
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Day One
Jul 28, 2007 8:36:49 GMT -5
Post by capybara on Jul 28, 2007 8:36:49 GMT -5
<snip> Greedy, my truly hope is that you're town, and that you don't get lynched today...no fun to have your first game experience be one of dying on Day One. However, what I hope for and what I believe are two different things. Vote Greedy Smurf. Why, Hal, would you vote for somebody who you thought was town? But that's, like, exactly not what he said. Your brain skipped his last sentence. He HOPES Smurf's town, but doesn't believe that that is the case.
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Hockey Monkey!
Borogrove
This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker over who killed who.
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Day One
Jul 28, 2007 8:58:19 GMT -5
Post by Hockey Monkey! on Jul 28, 2007 8:58:19 GMT -5
Further on the dnooman hoo-hah, I do find it amusing that the people who were voting for him to get him to start posting immediately turn round and start voting for me instead for doing the same. That seems fair. At the time you placed your vote for dnooman, there were 2 people with 3 votes and dnooman had 2. Two votes do not a lynch make, but when you tossed him into a 3 way tie for leading vote getters, it brought in the very real possibility that he could be piled on and lynched. The intention of my vote was to get his attention. I'm a little suspicious of cowgirl for adding her vote, but very suspicious of you for yours. Neither were really necessary. That being said, I'm not all that pleased with the way people have piled on to you either. I think it is likely that between you ( Mal), Greedy Smurf, and DrainBead, there is a scum. Greedy has voted for DrainBeadDrainBead has voted for MalMal has no vote yet as he took his off Dnooman. If he votes Greedy, then we get a good old-fashioned Mexican Standoff. I've tried to work through the if X is scum, then Y can't be because of Z. It's getting me no where, and making my head hurt.
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Santo Rugger
Mome Rath
The Obviously Innocent Townie
The Rugger formerly known as Pygmy[on:BYAHH!][of:BYAHH?]
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Day One
Jul 28, 2007 9:13:19 GMT -5
Post by Santo Rugger on Jul 28, 2007 9:13:19 GMT -5
Why, Hal, would you vote for somebody who you thought was town? But that's, like, exactly not what he said. Your brain skipped his last sentence. He HOPES Smurf's town, but doesn't believe that that is the case. No, my brain read that last sentence. To me, it looks like a veiled attempt to distance himself from his vote. A very thinly veiled attempt.
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Merestil Haye
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Day One
Jul 28, 2007 9:18:30 GMT -5
Post by Merestil Haye on Jul 28, 2007 9:18:30 GMT -5
No, my brain read that last sentence. To me, it looks like a veiled attempt to distance himself from his vote. A very thinly veiled attempt. I interpreted Hal's vote in the same way Capybara did; he's decided that GreedySmurf is a Psycho and is voting for him even though it's GS's first game and he wants GS to enjoy the game and get into them.
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