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Post by Idle Thoughts on Jan 9, 2009 18:44:49 GMT -5
Kindly explain how changing the win conditions and then suddenly stopping at endgame isn't gastardly? Kindly explain how switching everybody's roles isn't gastardly? I didn't think the setup was gastardly at all, until I read the spoilers. It's a crazy, mixed up game. Not a gastard one. That's the difference. It's like the SMB games themselves in that regard. Some of the levels in the game are crazy, silly, and really weird. But it's fun, at least, and very interesting to play.
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Post by Rysto on Jan 9, 2009 19:19:35 GMT -5
No? How would it out them? 'Splain. ToMorrow, nobody's going to be given the role of Merlon, which is what Z claimed. That will make it quite obvious that Z was lying. Same goes for Cookies. sinjin's just as screwed, because somebody's going to get the role of "Boo", but it will be a scum role.
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Jan 9, 2009 21:23:26 GMT -5
Sinjin is screwed once, you're right, but it takes two shots to kill her.
As for Z and Cookies--the person getting those roles won't know that Cookies and Z had them previously.
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Post by special on Jan 9, 2009 23:55:32 GMT -5
Sinjin is screwed once, you're right, but it takes two shots to kill her. As for Z and Cookies--the person getting those roles won't know that Cookies and Z had them previously. so they'll get only the roles, not the names, obviously
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Jan 10, 2009 6:37:22 GMT -5
Yep
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Post by Rysto on Jan 10, 2009 16:31:21 GMT -5
No he didn't. RyJae made that part up.
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Post by special on Jan 11, 2009 18:36:00 GMT -5
why aren't they spamming votes?
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Jan 11, 2009 18:48:21 GMT -5
That's what I'm wondering.
Zeriel has already revealed to me that, if need be, he'll be making--like--15 posts in a row (near the end of Day) all voting for himself five time each (in each post).
If he's one of the only ones on then (or the only one), Town'll be hurting.
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Parzival
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Post by Parzival on Jan 11, 2009 23:43:45 GMT -5
With all the claims by the players, I don't need to be spoiled on who's who anymore, so I may as well post in here.
Even getting just the powers gives the town quite a bit of information if they don't win on that Day. They'd know number of scum, PFK & WC. So all they'd have to do is survive to the next day, and they're okay. Isn't it entirely possible that the new scum say, "Hey I'm scum, let's have a no-lynch today and we'll be sure to win tomorrow." The Strongman role makes this even less exciting - they'll simply beg to be lynched so that town can win more easily.
What about giving them any of the roles that've been in the game? (Since you're letting Players die, not characters). I think it'd make it plenty confusing without revealing too much afterwards.
Out of curiosity, is this a proper derangement (no player can get their own role and no two players get the same role)? Are you going to assign them randomly and adjust, or assign as you feel appropriate?
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Santo Rugger
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Post by Santo Rugger on Jan 12, 2009 13:32:50 GMT -5
I didn't think the setup was gastardly at all, until I read the spoilers. It's a crazy, mixed up game. Not a gastard one. That's the difference. [/quote]I think changing the win conditions and then suddenly stopping crosses the line. YMMV. I also think swapping everybody's roles using only the roles left in the game crosses the line, but again, YMMV.
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Jan 12, 2009 17:47:38 GMT -5
But the changing of the WC was, more or less, harmless and had no barring on the outcome of the game.
As for the role swapping--maybe--but again, in the games, things like that happened all the time. You'd be in a world or on a level and hit a switch and BAM..everything would be different. Pretty cool in that regard (well, at least I thought so).
I honestly don't think that the role swapping will make as big as a change as everyone thinks. The game, already, is in the stages of endgame. Even without that (role swapping)--I'd say the net is closing more and more for scum.
With the role swapping, one scum would be outed, sure--but Cookies wouldn't be.
Z, on the other hand, is stringing himself up right now. So again: No barring on the role swapping (since that hasn't even happened yet).
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Jan 12, 2009 17:48:45 GMT -5
With all the claims by the players, I don't need to be spoiled on who's who anymore, so I may as well post in here. Even getting just the powers gives the town quite a bit of information if they don't win on that Day. They'd know number of scum, PFK & WC. So all they'd have to do is survive to the next day, and they're okay. Isn't it entirely possible that the new scum say, "Hey I'm scum, let's have a no-lynch today and we'll be sure to win tomorrow." The Strongman role makes this even less exciting - they'll simply beg to be lynched so that town can win more easily. What about giving them any of the roles that've been in the game? (Since you're letting Players die, not characters). I think it'd make it plenty confusing without revealing too much afterwards. Out of curiosity, is this a proper derangement (no player can get their own role and no two players get the same role)? Are you going to assign them randomly and adjust, or assign as you feel appropriate? It'll be purely random...so yes, I guess there IS a possiblity of a scum still staying scum...but I wouldn't put the odds as good.
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Jan 12, 2009 17:50:24 GMT -5
Also, what were you suggesting mid-post? That I make many people the same role? Like four or five people mad bombers? I don't know what you meant by the "giving them any of the roles that have been in the game". Or did you mean give them possible even dead ones like the one shot Vig or the Jester?
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Parzival
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Post by Parzival on Jan 12, 2009 21:32:11 GMT -5
I meant include the dead ones, too. Randomly assign them (edit: "the players") to any role available at the start of the game. I think it captures the idea of a completely bizarre day without giving the town exact information about who's left in the game. (Depending on how it plays out it could still yield a lot for them, but if they have to guess it'll be tougher to figure out).
That sort of got confused with my other question - how the roles are re-assigned. Now that I think about it, it likely wouldn't make sense if you're just randomizing current roles, so it applied more to what I was thinking of. Either way, it's not a good idea (the possibility of five new scum Toughguys wouldn't make sense), so you've essentially answered it.
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Post by special on Jan 13, 2009 17:41:34 GMT -5
wow, all the unvoting makes for a real interesting read :-)
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Jan 14, 2009 5:51:42 GMT -5
Okay, here, how about this (I was tossing this idea around as far back as two days ago): Not only will I not give out names on the switching Day, I won't give out roles either. I'll just say to the people they're either scum, town, Mason, or PFK (if the PFK still is around then). However I will still keep the same current numbers of the things (I.E. two scum, one Mason, one PFK, etc).
This will prevent sinjin from being outed...however, I fear without the out, the scum may become too strong (after all, it takes TWO lynches to kill off sinjin and she's not even discovered yet--and then one for Cookies--so essentially, there are three scum left, and with the PFK dying toDay and another Town dying toNight, it would tip the tide CONSIDERABLY for scum, I feel. This is one reason why I thought/think sinjin being outed is actually a GOOD thing that keeps the game still balanced).
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Merestil Haye
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Post by Merestil Haye on Jan 14, 2009 7:13:19 GMT -5
The problem is that if Sinjin is outed and survives her hanging, the next day is such a foregone conclusion that nothing will matter.
We saw what happens to outed Mafiates who are left alive because the Town needs to worry about a PFK kill. They are marginalised and ignored. "Oh yes, you're a Werewolf. We don't believe you. Don't worry, we'll get to you eventually." Do you think that's fun? What's the point of playing, or even reading, when no-one pays attention to a word you say?
The effect on the rest of the town isn't much better. "That mafiate survived? Damn. Guess we'd better vote them again - there's surely no way Idle would have created an unkillable Mafiate or we might as well give up now. That's done; what else is there to talk about?"
The thing is, Town can try and lynch Sinjin twice, and still have a mislynch to spare. That's ignoring the fact that Cop and Doctor are still on the loose, guaranteeing at least one more investigation by Hoopy, which means at the start of Tomorrow the Town have four lynches to kill three unknowns, one of which has to be killed twice. Revealing Sinjin by this role shakeup would destroy any chance of the Mafia coming back in an endgame that is already stacked heavily in Town favour.
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Jan 14, 2009 7:47:19 GMT -5
Well, I disagree, but you're probably right. The way I see it, Town is out ahead right now, yes....but after toDay and ToNight, if Sinjin is NOT outed, then it will be about equal/a coinflip, from how I see it. But I could be wrong/miscalculating.
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Post by special on Jan 14, 2009 17:22:56 GMT -5
but isn't town ahead due to playing better than the Scum?
It's reminding me of the Kiss game on FB, a 12 player game with 3 Scum where we lynched a Scum Day 1, and I vigged a Scum Night 2...with 1 scum left and 4 confirmed town, it seemed an easy victory, until the rules were changed and I was recruited to Scum.
I was mildly irritated.
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Jan 15, 2009 11:59:22 GMT -5
Yes, Town is doing really, really well. They usually do in most games, I've found. Point of fact is...scum actually rarely win. I think it'd be safe to say that scum win maybe 2 or 3 times out of ten games. At least that I've seen on here and the SDMB.
But I still think that it could be pretty equal come the next two Days if sinjin isn't outed...
..because a lot of people are looking at Blockey as being VERY scummy....overly so, actually. I wouldn't be surprised if they went after him this next Day. So....
If scum kill off Nanook toNight (and they're considering it)...and then Blockey is lynched tomorrow and Hoopy is lynched the next Night....it will start Day Eight off with seven people left, and, for all intents and purposes, three scum still left (since they'd have to kill sinjin twice---again, this is if sinjin is NOT outed).
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Jan 15, 2009 12:22:46 GMT -5
Anyway, Nanook is protecting Hoopy, Hoopy is investigating Total Lost (so another total lost chance in finding scum since she's Town), and the scum are now voting for Nanook.
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Post by Rysto on Jan 15, 2009 12:47:09 GMT -5
Anyway, Nanook is protecting Hoopy, Hoopy is investigating Total Lost (so another total lost chance in finding scum since she's Town), and the scum are now voting for Nanook. I need to run the numbers but I think that investigation wins the game for the Town.
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Jan 15, 2009 12:49:30 GMT -5
You'd think so, right? We'll I guess we'll find out. : )
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Jan 15, 2009 14:07:43 GMT -5
For one Day and one Night, here are the roles (I decided to take Parzival's idea--the roles were assigned randomly):
The scum are Total Lost and MiteyMouse Sinjin is a Town Doc Cookies is a Town Cop Hoopy is a Mason Kid V is a PFK Survivor Kat is a PFK Mad Bomber (taking over for zeriel) and misterblocky is the same thing he was (vanilla Town).
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Post by Nanook on Jan 15, 2009 14:35:58 GMT -5
I think that's game over too. Let's assume they lynch blockey. NK Hoopy. That leaves 2(3) scum and 4 Town, all of whom are confirmed. Lynch, NK, lynch, NK. 2 confirmed town left, 1 scum. Day. Game over.
I knew I was outted. That's the major reason I claimed when I did. Without that I would have kept my mouth shut. I actually thought about claiming earlier, and would have if there had been a no kill Night. It worked out well this way though.
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Post by Rysto on Jan 15, 2009 15:40:53 GMT -5
The town needs to do the math and realize that 3 three unknowns and 4 knowns, a no-lynch is a stupid idea. Lynch the unknowns and you're guaranteed a win.
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Post by Nanook on Jan 15, 2009 17:29:38 GMT -5
Wow, I hadn't even thought about the implications of giving Townies scum roles. Since TL and MM are the scum Today, and are Town normally, they can just act as a vig with their NK and pick off any of the unconfirmed. Which makes it even MORE over, barring Cookies not being the day lynch and someone protecting their target.
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Post by Rysto on Jan 15, 2009 20:00:06 GMT -5
Cookies:
Assuming facts not in evidence, Your Honour.
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Post by Rysto on Jan 15, 2009 20:19:24 GMT -5
It's actually a good thing I got mod-killed for the Town. If I were still alive, they'd have to worry about Masons stealing a win and probably lynch a Mason.
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Jan 15, 2009 22:48:15 GMT -5
You guys are too quick to say it's over IMO. I think it's almost equal. Look at this: Say Sinjin gets it toNight. Then what? Then she survives anyway and I tell everyone she didn't die (although not what her role is or her name). They would then figure she really IS a strongman and was telling the truth. To me, this would give sinjin a lot of town cred (maybe) and someone would get killed toNight...and on Day Eight, I can see a Blockey lynch happening. I'm sorry, but one thing I do know is that not many people want to believe in a role of a strongman scum. I've heard from many that the role is "too powerful" for the scum side and is hardly ever seen (I've even got PMs from people saying they'd never heard of it before). I do not think--if sinjin is lynched--that people would think she's a strongman scum. I think that they'd think she was telling the truth and that they'd lynch blockey Tomorrow. But I guess we'll see.
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