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Post by NAF1138 on Aug 16, 2007 12:15:15 GMT -5
Interesting. Mad, I know you took back your vote, but would you mind pointing out exactly what made you suspect nesta in the first place? And/or why you decided to clear him? Now that story is voting, help the us lazy folks out.
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Post by NAF1138 on Aug 16, 2007 12:17:23 GMT -5
again with the me hating this board's preview function .
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Post by storyteller0910 on Aug 16, 2007 12:19:00 GMT -5
Not to cramp your style, and all, but nesta is male... I am so dumb. Sorry, nesta, for believing you to be female scum. I will hereafter believe you to be male scum. ;D
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Post by storyteller0910 on Aug 16, 2007 12:19:59 GMT -5
(snip) *is this post ok with everybody?* I doubt it. For someone who's touchy about the way he's called, you have misspelled NAF'S name pretty consistently. ;D Are you now or have you ever been a copyeditor in real life?
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Post by diggitcamara on Aug 16, 2007 12:22:29 GMT -5
I doubt it. For someone who's touchy about the way he's called, you have misspelled NAF'S name pretty consistently. ;D Are you now or have you ever been a copyeditor in real life? Nah. It's just that both of you have been repeating your errors constantly over this Day and it's become like an itch. Anyway, I'd never dream about becoming a copy-editor in a foreign language.
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Post by Mad The Swine on Aug 16, 2007 12:24:46 GMT -5
(snip) *is this post ok with everybody?* I doubt it. For someone who's touchy about the way he's called, you have misspelled NAF'S name pretty consistently. ;D Yeah..its one of those...what is it called? Portmanteau thingies or something, squishing Mal and NAF together.
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Death By Irony
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Post by Death By Irony on Aug 16, 2007 12:26:31 GMT -5
Actually, my first post of toDay sort of explained why I didn't believe mhaye's claim: a pro-town resurrection power role, with full death reveal and access to the forbidden board, seemed to be breaking the game too far in the town's favor, even if said role was a one-shot ability. It seemed far more likely that he was lying, or the had some sort of weird side-effect. At the time I thought, "wow, if mhaye is scum this has got to be the most ballsy move ever to either smear BM or make him more townie". As Roosh said, if mhaye survived the Night he would have been the top lynch candidate the next Day.
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Post by Mad The Swine on Aug 16, 2007 12:27:38 GMT -5
Oh yeah...league office has reviewed the tapes and the overturned vote is overruled.
Vote nesta.
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Post by NAF1138 on Aug 16, 2007 12:30:33 GMT -5
I doubt it. For someone who's touchy about the way he's called, you have misspelled NAF'S name pretty consistently. ;D Yeah..its one of those...what is it called? Portmanteau thingies or something, squishing Mal and NAF together. If I get a vote, on the whole I prefer MAF to the MALF that you used the first time, Mr. Pig. ;D Mal1138 and NAFacandra are also acceptable portmanteau's IMO.
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Death By Irony
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Post by Death By Irony on Aug 16, 2007 12:31:41 GMT -5
*edit by way of post*
Forgot a word. I meant to say:
"It seemed far more likely that he was lying, or the POWER had some sort of weird side-effect."
And...toDay's voting action so far has been very strange. First Mad comes in and no-explanation votes nesta, just to see what would happen (and unvotes nesta once enough people bully him for it). Then storyteller comes in with a nice long explanation as to why nesta may be scummy and votes him. Then Mad re-votes nesta.
(Does this make Mad and Story more scummy, and nesta more town, or vice versa? Argh. Can I just blanket-FOS all three of them and then close my eyes, point at a name, and hope I guess right?)
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Post by Mad The Swine on Aug 16, 2007 12:44:00 GMT -5
*edit by way of post* Forgot a word. I meant to say: "It seemed far more likely that he was lying, or the POWER had some sort of weird side-effect." And...toDay's voting action so far has been very strange. First Mad comes in and no-explanation votes nesta, just to see what would happen (and unvotes nesta once enough people bully him for it). Then storyteller comes in with a nice long explanation as to why nesta may be scummy and votes him. Then Mad re-votes nesta. (Does this make Mad and Story more scummy, and nesta more town, or vice versa? Argh. Can I just blanket-FOS all three of them and then close my eyes, point at a name, and hope I guess right?) Take it for what ya want..but I was busy trying to get the long post of mine together(long for me anyway) and never even saw story's post. The re-vote was indeed influenced by story's post and subsequent vote,along with my own suspicions.
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Blaster Master
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Post by Blaster Master on Aug 16, 2007 13:14:33 GMT -5
That was a well reasoned post, and it looks like I'm going to have to go back and reread nesta and pygmy rugger. However, I'm still a bit more suspicious of MadTheSwine, interestingly for the same reason you're less suspicious of him... MadtheSwine believed mhaye from the moment he made the claim. He had plenty of chances to recant, to support some other plan, and he argued consistently that we should kill BM and get our Therapist back. He comes out very well in this exchange; I can not imagine that a scum would argue so forcefully for a move that would have made it nigh on impossible for the scum to win. I will not move him off my suspicion list altogether - no one gets off that list without claiming or dying - but he's dropping to its bottom for the time being. Let's theorize for a moment that one (or possibly both) between nesta and pygmy rugger is scum. Let's also theorize that the scum knew how game turning mhaye's claim would be if believed. Now, the scum could throw everything they had at mhaye's claim to try to get the town to believe it... OR they could have a couple of them seed dissent (subtly or overtly) while having one of them believe him knowing that, either way, he would come up town, and, thus, get him town cred. Now, based on your description (which, granted, I haven't double checked yet), MadTheSwine believes mhaye with little justification. Normally, unqualified defense of a pro-town player is seen as a scum move, but not in the case of MadTheSwine because he's an generally an instinctual and non-linearly logical player; thus, an unqualified support of mhaye would seem well within his erratic play style. Now, perhaps this is confirmation bias on my part, but I really don't how that move makes him more townie to you. IOW, wouldn't it make more sense for the scum to divide their eggs, just in case at least one of them exposed themselves (as it looks like nesta and/or pygmy rugger may have done)? They'll have one who has pretty much, deliberately or not, destroyed his ability to make an argument to which the town will give credence; thus, all his "I believe mhaye is telling the truth" arguments had virtually no chance of being heard, so he's not hurting the possibly as many as 3 scum trying to get mhaye's claim not to be believed. God... I feel that whole last paragraph is too convoluted... I hope it makes sense. Anyway, I'm going to vote MadTheSwine for now, but I reserve the right to switch to nesta and/or pygmy rugger as more evidence comes to light.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Aug 16, 2007 13:23:59 GMT -5
That was a well reasoned post, and it looks like I'm going to have to go back and reread nesta and pygmy rugger. However, I'm still a bit more suspicious of MadTheSwine, interestingly for the same reason you're less suspicious of him... MadtheSwine believed mhaye from the moment he made the claim. He had plenty of chances to recant, to support some other plan, and he argued consistently that we should kill BM and get our Therapist back. He comes out very well in this exchange; I can not imagine that a scum would argue so forcefully for a move that would have made it nigh on impossible for the scum to win. I will not move him off my suspicion list altogether - no one gets off that list without claiming or dying - but he's dropping to its bottom for the time being. Let's theorize for a moment that one (or possibly both) between nesta and pygmy rugger is scum. Let's also theorize that the scum knew how game turning mhaye's claim would be if believed. Now, the scum could throw everything they had at mhaye's claim to try to get the town to believe it... OR they could have a couple of them seed dissent (subtly or overtly) while having one of them believe him knowing that, either way, he would come up town, and, thus, get him town cred. Now, based on your description (which, granted, I haven't double checked yet), MadTheSwine believes mhaye with little justification. Normally, unqualified defense of a pro-town player is seen as a scum move, but not in the case of MadTheSwine because he's an generally an instinctual and non-linearly logical player; thus, an unqualified support of mhaye would seem well within his erratic play style. Now, perhaps this is confirmation bias on my part, but I really don't how that move makes him more townie to you. IOW, wouldn't it make more sense for the scum to divide their eggs, just in case at least one of them exposed themselves (as it looks like nesta and/or pygmy rugger may have done)? They'll have one who has pretty much, deliberately or not, destroyed his ability to make an argument to which the town will give credence; thus, all his "I believe mhaye is telling the truth" arguments had virtually no chance of being heard, so he's not hurting the possibly as many as 3 scum trying to get mhaye's claim not to be believed. God... I feel that whole last paragraph is too convoluted... I hope it makes sense. Anyway, I'm going to vote MadTheSwine for now, but I reserve the right to switch to nesta and/or pygmy rugger as more evidence comes to light. This is a fair and reasoned argument. I should state for the record that Mad's support for mhaye was not without reason. Mad felt that the move made no sense if mhaye was scum, because he would be revealed as a liar soon enough and lynched. I can't agree with you here about Mad, though. Ordinarily, when Mad is just fishing, he is as you described him - instinctive and nonlinear, tossing random accusations into the air to see what might stick, developing wild, detailed conspiracy theories - playing. In this case, he was entirely linear, consistent, and specific. He came in to say: I believe mhaye, I think we should follow his plan, and here is why. This was the presentation of a player who knows that people don't often agree with him, and is trying to shift his style - it's the presentation of a player who actually wants people to listen to him and do as he suggests. Of course, I could be completely wrong. But I think there are simply better targets right now.
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Post by nesta on Aug 16, 2007 13:41:59 GMT -5
I don't have time to mount a proper defense until tonight, but I might as well chime in here.
Mad, I still don't get what your original case against me was. You said when you unvoted that it was based on some other post Today. What was it, and how was your read wrong that caused you to unvote?
About my finding Mal's (now NAF) vote for dnooman the single scummiest thing on Day 1, I did, and that's why I said it. The total scumminess of drainbead was high enough that it outweighed that single action, so I voted for drainbead. I've found Mal/NAF rather consistently scummy since then, but I was convinced JSexton was scum, and he kept voting for Mal/NAF, which made me doubt my read on Mal/NAF. Now that I know JSexton was genuine in his suspicions it makes me further suspicious of Mal/NAF, but since I wasn't concentrating on him I don't have a solid case to lay out yet.
Now about storyteller's case against me. I don't get it storyteller. As you say, the scum must have been in a panic when mhaye claimed. There were a few people that did seem in a panic, and cried sour grapes that we were even talking about it. Those were Mal/NAF and pygmy. There were also those actually out and out saying we should disbelieve mhaye, and some even suggested JSexton kill mhaye, which he did. I don't have time right now to go back and review, but I think you and Blaster Master were two who made a case against mhaye. And here I was, wondering what the hell to make of the claim, trying to work out how seriously we should take it, and whether JSexton should act on it or wait until Today for the rest of the town to do so. My post wondering if sacrificing Blaster would be worth it at that time was before the rest of the bingo-ish board was posted, and I wondered if there might be a way to complete it without sacrificing those we thought were probably town. I think that was a valid question.
Now we have you storyteller, overlooking those who seemed angry about the claim, and those who made a case against the claim and got JSexton to not only disbelieve mhaye but kill him and remove our chance to work the claim out today. Of everyone, you go after me. Why? Do you honestly think my WTF reaction to mhaye's claim is more scummy than pygmy's?
I guess I'll just come out and say it Mad style, but I think storyteller is scum and is trying to set me up, and I think pygmy is too. I'm still not sure about NAF/Mal, but he's right up there in my list.
Sorry for the rambling post, but it's all I have time for until later.
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Post by NAF1138 on Aug 16, 2007 13:48:10 GMT -5
Can I just take a moment to mention how odd it is to have people reference things that I did when I was Mal? It is an odd feeling.
I am not sure where I stand right now in terms of who I think is scum (I am still gathering data) although I would like to once again for nesta to explain his case against me/Mal.
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Santo Rugger
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Post by Santo Rugger on Aug 16, 2007 13:51:25 GMT -5
<snip> pygmy rugger's one post - read it again at #214 - is so frustrated in tone. He doesn't believe mhaye, but won't say why. He seems genuinely angry that the conversation was even allowed to develop. In that post, he also notes that he's only dropping in for a moment - his post sounds like someone who's furious that what he perceives as a twist of the rules could screw his team, but doesn't have the time to compose himself and make a calmer post.<snip> Story, I'm glad you picked up my frustration in that post, as I was genuinely angry, and here's why: Didn't I recall you saying something to the effect of how simple this game was going to be compared to all the others??? When Idle thoughts was soliciting players for this game, he explicitly said it was going to be a "relaxing" game, not complicated, straightforward, etc. Frankly, I think the secret role was bullshit, and still think Idle Thoughts should have made JSexton take out Malacandra like he said he would have. My frustration had to do with the point that Idle said he wasn't going to include shit like that, and he did anyway. One of these days I'll post a quoted post into the right thread, I swear!
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Post by diggitcamara on Aug 16, 2007 14:01:55 GMT -5
(snip) Other than mhaye, JSexton, and dnooman - whose alignments are all now known - the most prominent participants, ie the ones who expressed opinions about mhaye's claim one way or another, were: Blaster Master Malacandra (now NAF) storyteller0910 nesta pygmy rugger capyabara dotchan MadtheSwine(snip) Mal has pretty consistently not wanted to die, so his actions are usually consistent with that approach. (snip) Can't actually agree with you on that count. 1. In this post he says True, but JSexton wouldn't be around at Night to discuss the matter, and it would have been fairer if JS had just croaked and not got to blab about his role, since he couldn't manage to mention it sooner, and so we wouldn't now be talking about wasting BlaM just because he's part of MHaye's pet project. Of course, chances are I'd be now supping a cold one along with JSexton over in Limbo, but to quote Carrot Ironfoundersson, personal isn't the same as important. 2. And here he says Dude, you should have died before MHaye had the chance to open his mouth. It's not my fault if I'm principled. The best outcome for the town now is if BlaM is scum, MHaye is telling the truth, and we get the Therapist back - but I want to see a show of hands from those who wouldn't call it a tainted win. I like to win fairly. YMMV. Now, like you said, Pygmy seemed genuinely upset over a possibly game-breaking discussion after the Day should have ended. Malacandra's posts seem to be carefully backing up Pygmy's point of view. And, if we look at it objectively, it even makes sense: 1. The loss of one psychopath would be better (for them) than the resurrection of Dr Hockey. 2. If, even worse, BlasterMaster was a Psychopath as well, we wouldn't even talk about an exchange of citizen versus Dr Hockey but Psychopath versus Dr Hockey ... I'll go meta-gaming a bit. I'm going to take a gander at the Bingo card. I think there's interesting information to extract from it.
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Post by nesta on Aug 16, 2007 14:02:56 GMT -5
NAF, as I said above I don't really have a case right now other than when I read Mal's posts they sounded scummy to me, and his actions seemed a little off. You might want to check in with those who were trying to get Mal lynched for the past couple of Days since they've given it more thought than I have. I'm a little surprised you're asking me in particular, because you should have a much better idea of the case against Mal than I do since you had to read the last couple of Days in one go and would have been paying very careful attention to all the posts suspecting you/Mal.
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Santo Rugger
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Post by Santo Rugger on Aug 16, 2007 14:04:32 GMT -5
The following is a snippet from Story's post detailing people who did not believe MHaye's claim. <snip> I say I don't believe mhaye at #221. My reasons are outlined briefly.<snip> Notice how small the line is in comparrison with the rest of the post? Almost like he intended for you to just skim right past it, and assume his reasons were outlined "briefy" in the post? Well, here's his "brief" post, in case any of you don't want to go look it up: Sorry for that weird disjointed post on Saturday afternoon; I was heading to Giants stadium and dictating the post to my wife as I navigated the New Jersey Turnpike. Good times. Anyway, mhaye's role claim is weirding me out. This is primarily for meta reasons, but reasons are reasons. We started with 18 players, including one crazy townie, one doctor, one therapist, and probably at least 3 geniuses. The scum had no power role at all, no equivalent to the godfather/Alpha Wolf who could escape detection by the therapist, no scummy detection roles, no recruitment ability. Even if there were five scum to start, these numbers seem to favor the town (if only by a bit). Would Idle really have inserted another pro-town power role, one with an ability as huge as the ability to ressurrect a slain townie? If mhaye is completely on the level, and if JSexton kills Blaster Master today and Doctor Monkey returns tomorrow - it's probably pretty close to game over. There would be 13 players left. Two are mhaye and hockey monkey. If the genuises simply declare at that point, it cuts the investigation pool by three or more. Every one of hockey monkey's investigations would then have a dramatically good chance of uncovering scum. This lasts for as many nights as it takes for the scum to find the Doctor - possibly enough to lock in a town win. So I find it difficult to believe that Idle would have introduced such a potentially unbalancing power role on the town side. But if mhaye is garden variety scum, this move makes no sense. He was not much on the radar before this claim, so if Blaster dies and there's no hockey monkey tomorrow, mhaye's going to get lynched, followed probably pretty immediately by Malacandra. Why would scum sacrifice himself to keep another scum around for just a day? I see two options: (1) mhaye is telling the truth - but not really. He is scum-aligned and his power will bring back hockey monkey as scum. This would be very bad, since the town would be loathe to lynch hockey monkey if she returned. (2) mhaye is flat lying, but Malcandra actually has some sort of scum power role, like a recruitment ability, and keeping Mal alive for one more night results in some benefit to the scum significant enough to make mhaye's sacrifice worthwhile. No idea what's actually happening, but something here stinks. I don't understand, Story. How is it that you can make a case against people for saying they don't like MHaye's claim, when you did the exact same thing! Even worse, you just gloss right over it, while trying to implicate others. You say Nesta's reasons were calm and thought out, and mine were in a rush because I was at a music fest and pissed off at Idle. How would you classify yours?
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Post by storyteller0910 on Aug 16, 2007 14:12:20 GMT -5
I don't understand, Story. How is it that you can make a case against people for saying they don't like MHaye's claim, when you did the exact same thing! Even worse, you just gloss right over it, while trying to implicate others. You say Nesta's reasons were calm and thought out, and mine were in a rush because I was at a music fest and pissed off at Idle. How would you classify yours? Agh. Too many things to respond to all at once. Let's start with this one. My reasons were wrong. What do you want me to say? I believe that among mhaye's detractors, there was at least one and possibly more than one scum (reasons as above). I know I'm not one of them. What the heck kind of analysis do you expect me to conduct of my own posts? As I've said a hundred times before, it is not what someone does, in and of itself, that is scummy. It is why, and to a lesser extent how. I thought you seemed overly emotional - angry even - about the turn of events. This seemed potentially scummy to me. Your explanation, though, makes a bit of sense. nesta's approach seemed guarded and opportunistic - in a word, scummy (more on that in my direct reply to him). Blaster Master also opposed mhaye, but I found neither his reasoning nor his approach suspect.
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RoOsh
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Post by RoOsh on Aug 16, 2007 14:14:54 GMT -5
I'm glad you posted your thoughts on Mhaye, Storyteller, because that's the stuff I was working on last night before my post was eaten up by these boards. I too have a little list of all the pro/anti Mhaye statements being made after his RoleClaim.
For me though Pygmy did stand out to me as the most antiMhaye, AND anti JSexton reply of all of them.
But i disliked Mad's pro Killing BM views. Because as you said in your earlier detailed post, we're in a very bad way, ya know? We can't screw up very much anymore. So if you look at it as BM being not Scum, then there would be 2 dead townies (that was my initial reaction from last night, and I didn't think it out all the way through that Scum would consider this an almost game ending scenario for them if we got back Mhaye and the Doctor). Because in my mind... Why would the scum believe Mhaye anymore than any of us? MY gut instinct would be that yes they'd know that Mhaye isn't one of them, but the scum would not be as worried about the idea of such a powerful power role existing. Honestly, "Chia Bingo Owner." It seemed so far-fetched to be true that I was kinda surprised to see it. So in that case, I think the scum would go on both sides of the fence. (and if I was playing scum, that'd be my strategy too) I could see one or two scum being against it. Then have one Scum just ignore it, and finally have one scum being very pro-Mhaye, because he could just be a WinstonSmith, and they'd get maybe a free kill out of it.
That's why Pygmy AND Mad both set off alarms for me.
Of the 9 Living players currently in attendance (Since i believe Greedy was also gone that weekend along with myself). All 9 had something to say about Mhaye's claims. Here's a quick Repost of my list:
12:12pm Mhaye I am playing bingo! Claim 12:23pm Mad Pro Mhaye's claims 12:31pm Nesta Doubts Mhaye "I've had a town read on Blaster Master so far."-Nesta 12:36pm Capy Wonders if Mhaye would be selfish 12:46pm Mad Pro Killing BM 12:56pm Mal Uncertain to kill BM though it'd save him. 2:21pm BM Anti Mhaye's claims -says he'll vote for Mhaye next day 3:42pm Jsexton Doesn't believe Mhaye Mhaye states Believes Mal is NOT a Psycho… 3:48pm Pygmy Anti Mhaye and Anti Jsexton 4:41pm ST Suspicious of Mhaye 5:07pm BM Very suspicious of Mhaye's "data" 5:26pm Dotchan Is confused and doubtful. Asks Jsexton to go ahead and kill whoever he wants. Besides the doctor. Or Dotchan. Mad is pro killing BM and bringing back the doctor
It's the ugly view of all the action or what I got out of it. And you're right, Story, in thinking that there is scum being involved in this somehow, because almost EVERYONE was involved in the MhayeBingoMadness....
I also disliked Pygmy's voting record earlier in the day when he wonders if both Jsexton AND Malacandra were scum (during the tie), and says that he'll be waiting till he comes home to think about it further, and then when he returned home he is the final vote against Jsexton with the reasoning "Well, if he's acting different, and we've never seen him as scum" then he'll vote Jsexton. Pygmy didn't vote during the initial leading up to of the tiebreaker, as Jsexton and Malacandra both only got 4 votes, yet during the TieBreaker Jsexton quickly amassed 9 votes in a period of about 19 hours. That really doesn't sit well with me. I feel as if though maybe the initial votes were out there trying to feel out things, but once it became a choice between 2 people, everyone felt it was totally cool to just jump on Jsexton?? Mhaye pointed out that it felt like a pile-on, but Mad responded saying how could it NOT look like a pile on.... Well, even if its sarcasm, 9 vs 2 votes makes me think of "pile-on" honestly.... Those 5 extra voters of JSexton made me raise an eyebrow to them: Nesta, Mhaye, Diggit, and Malacandra were the original 4 votes for JSexton, and they all reaffirmed thier votes.
But then Dotchan, BlasterMaster, Mad, Story, and finally Pygmy come back and all vote for JSexton after the tiebreaker.
Of those 5 players.... Only BM and Story really made large posts explaining WHY they were voting for JSexton (though Storyteller's did boil down to "I'm gona just vote for the most likely to be scum")
So I'm left looking at Dotchan, Mad, and Pygmy. Dotchan in her voting said that "JSexton has been fairly beneath my radar/-snipped-/ so toDay's action does seem rather out of left field." Her reasoning for Jsexton's votes were basically then his actions on Day 3 i took it as. But I'm really frustrated w/ Dotchan's voting habits, as she always seems to tout the GOOD values in the person she's voting AGAINST. Making me always feel her votes are disingenuous.
Mad- This guy is HARD for me to read at all. He's crazy erratic, and i love that sort of playing style, but its frustrating too. His post was pretty much just a "am more suspicious of Jsexton than Mal", which is what storyteller had said, just in more words.... The way you two behave makes me think if one of you is scum, the other could be as well. You guys seem very buddy-buddy at times with each other.
Pygmy- you had the 2 posts in the matter really, one where you thought both may be scum, and then some thoughts on "if its only one..." but you refrained from voting until you got home and gave the "well if he's acting different" vote towards Jsexton.
None of those 3 votes sat well with me last night. But today again I see Mad and Story with their votes against Nesta, and... I am seeing some of it, but not as much to make the case turn into a Vote against the guy. I especially was concerned with the "Vote for Nesta, unvote, then Story's Anti-Nesta, so revote" sort of action.... Again, I feel as if there's a team aspect of playing there.... One dropped the ball, but the other grabs it and so the first is back in the game. But its just suspicion right now, and I don't think i really believe you guys are the scummiest.
Same with you Dotchan. You annoy me with your "nice" voting, because when i feel you're pro-that person, is when you're voting against them. Again, you're either inexperienced, and just awkwardly playing the game, or you're the nicest Scummy player in here.
But the vote i feel most confident against for now, Is you Pygmy. You were the final nail in the JSexton coffin, but you didn't vote earlier against him, and your "I wonder if they're both scum" post just didn't sit well with me, it felt like the opposite of Mhaye's "refraining to vote because it looks like a pile-on" post where he didn't vote.
That with your anger for the rules makes me hesitate just a bit. So for now i will be voting PygmyRunner With the right that I could change my vote as more evidence/people start posting again. There are a few people who i'm getting the bad vibes from doing things right now, and I want to hear from a few of the other people rather than a list of all my suspects just accusing each other....
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Post by storyteller0910 on Aug 16, 2007 14:16:39 GMT -5
The following is a snippet from Story's post detailing people who did not believe MHaye's claim. <snip> I say I don't believe mhaye at #221. My reasons are outlined briefly.<snip> Notice how small the line is in comparrison with the rest of the post? Almost like he intended for you to just skim right past it, and assume his reasons were outlined "briefy" in the post? Well, here's his "brief" post, in case any of you don't want to go look it up: Sorry for that weird disjointed post on Saturday afternoon; I was heading to Giants stadium and dictating the post to my wife as I navigated the New Jersey Turnpike. Good times. Anyway, mhaye's role claim is weirding me out. This is primarily for meta reasons, but reasons are reasons. We started with 18 players, including one crazy townie, one doctor, one therapist, and probably at least 3 geniuses. The scum had no power role at all, no equivalent to the godfather/Alpha Wolf who could escape detection by the therapist, no scummy detection roles, no recruitment ability. Even if there were five scum to start, these numbers seem to favor the town (if only by a bit). Would Idle really have inserted another pro-town power role, one with an ability as huge as the ability to ressurrect a slain townie? If mhaye is completely on the level, and if JSexton kills Blaster Master today and Doctor Monkey returns tomorrow - it's probably pretty close to game over. There would be 13 players left. Two are mhaye and hockey monkey. If the genuises simply declare at that point, it cuts the investigation pool by three or more. Every one of hockey monkey's investigations would then have a dramatically good chance of uncovering scum. This lasts for as many nights as it takes for the scum to find the Doctor - possibly enough to lock in a town win. So I find it difficult to believe that Idle would have introduced such a potentially unbalancing power role on the town side. But if mhaye is garden variety scum, this move makes no sense. He was not much on the radar before this claim, so if Blaster dies and there's no hockey monkey tomorrow, mhaye's going to get lynched, followed probably pretty immediately by Malacandra. Why would scum sacrifice himself to keep another scum around for just a day? I see two options: (1) mhaye is telling the truth - but not really. He is scum-aligned and his power will bring back hockey monkey as scum. This would be very bad, since the town would be loathe to lynch hockey monkey if she returned. (2) mhaye is flat lying, but Malcandra actually has some sort of scum power role, like a recruitment ability, and keeping Mal alive for one more night results in some benefit to the scum significant enough to make mhaye's sacrifice worthwhile. No idea what's actually happening, but something here stinks. I don't understand, Story. How is it that you can make a case against people for saying they don't like MHaye's claim, when you did the exact same thing! Even worse, you just gloss right over it, while trying to implicate others. You say Nesta's reasons were calm and thought out, and mine were in a rush because I was at a music fest and pissed off at Idle. How would you classify yours? Also, and by the way, what you do here is bullshit. You imply that the post I refer to as "brief" is the second one you quote - which is a long one. However, I explicitly stated that the post to which I was referring - the one I described as "brief" was at #221. Did you go look it up? Because the one at #221 is NOT the one you've quoted in this response. The one at #221 is a very short, quickie contribution made form my wife's iPhone. The longer post you cite came later, after JSexton had made his decision about who to lynch and therefore after the discussion had become academic. So here's what you did. You saw me describe one of my posts as "brief." You told people that you thought I was trying to get them to breeze past it as unimportant. You offered to quote it for them, just in case "they didn't want to look it up." And then you quoted an entirely different post. This is incredibly dishonest.
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Post by NAF1138 on Aug 16, 2007 14:16:57 GMT -5
NAF, as I said above I don't really have a case right now other than when I read Mal's posts they sounded scummy to me, and his actions seemed a little off. You might want to check in with those who were trying to get Mal lynched for the past couple of Days since they've given it more thought than I have. I'm a little surprised you're asking me in particular, because you should have a much better idea of the case against Mal than I do since you had to read the last couple of Days in one go and would have been paying very careful attention to all the posts suspecting you/ Mal. Ah, but you misunderstand the purpose of my asking. I know what MY case against Mal would be. But I want to know why the poeple who have me at the top of their list...well...have me at the top of their lists. I want to hear it from them. Like I said, I am datagathering still. And unfortunatly for me, no one else has done the sort of analizing that I personally find most useful. So I am comming into this late in the game and am trying to jumpstart things a bit for my own mind. You say you don't have much, that is fair enough.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Aug 16, 2007 14:37:21 GMT -5
There were also those actually out and out saying we should disbelieve mhaye, and some even suggested JSexton kill mhaye, which he did. One person made that suggestion: dnooman, now dead. No one else ever suggested that - at least, not on this board. Maybe you're thinking of something from another board. Yup. This is what you actually said: No mention of at this time. No discussion of, or questions about, alternative ways to utilize mhaye's power. Just a simple statement: Is it worth sacrificing someone who is probably town to bring back the Detective? I'm not sure. Now, days later, you can claim you meant to say whatever you want, but the above is what you actually said. Again, the only person who made that last case is now dead, and was a Genius, and thus is unlikely to be scum. You keep bringing it up, though. Since you asked? Yes. Your reaction was not "WTF." The tone of your posts was decidedly negative. You never came right out and said, "I think we should disbelieve mhaye," no. But you made it clear that you were skeptical - very skeptical. And I absolutely think that's scummy, in this particular context. For me, at least, I didn't believe mhaye in the least. I thought he was scummy-scum-scum, making a BS claim for reasons that were beyond my ability to guess. Scum, on the other hand, knew mhaye was on the level. They'd want to develop the case against him, make sure he was not believed - but carefully. Indirectly. Let the townies make the potentially incriminating declarative statements, and seem like you're just being reasonable. Set yourself up so that when it comes down to figuring out who was behind the downfall of the Chia Bingo Manager (I feel very silly typing that sentence), you have a bit of deniability. You have more emphatic people to stand behind - like me, and BM, and whoever. What, little old me? I was just trying to figure out what was going on! But you accomplished your goal, which was contributing to general disbelief of mhaye. Damn right I find that approach scummy. It's setting yourself up to avoid responsibility for the outcome while subtly contributing to that outcome. I'm shocked - shocked! - to discover that you think I'm scum now that I've called you out.
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Santo Rugger
Mome Rath
The Obviously Innocent Townie
The Rugger formerly known as Pygmy[on:BYAHH!][of:BYAHH?]
Posts: 3
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Post by Santo Rugger on Aug 16, 2007 14:43:02 GMT -5
Also, and by the way, what you do here is bullshit. You imply that the post I refer to as "brief" is the second one you quote - which is a long one. However, I explicitly stated that the post to which I was referring - the one I described as "brief" was at #221. Did you go look it up? Because the one at #221 is NOT the one you've quoted in this response. The one at #221 is a very short, quickie contribution made form my wife's iPhone. The longer post you cite came later, after JSexton had made his decision about who to lynch and therefore after the discussion had become academic. So here's what you did. You saw me describe one of my posts as "brief." You told people that you thought I was trying to get them to breeze past it as unimportant. You offered to quote it for them, just in case "they didn't want to look it up." And then you quoted an entirely different post. This is incredibly dishonest. First of all, I was not being dishonest, simply because I didn't make sure that the quote number was the same. Secondly, the post I actually quoted did come after Idle confirmed that JSexton was the CT, but JSexton did not post between your two posts saying who he was going to kill, and Idle had not yet announced it. I fail to see how the discussion had become academic. You would have made a post in the same spirit as the second one had you been at a computer for the first one.
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Post by capybara on Aug 16, 2007 14:48:57 GMT -5
Can't actually agree with you on that count. 1. In this post he says 2. And here he says Dude, you should have died before MHaye had the chance to open his mouth. It's not my fault if I'm principled. The best outcome for the town now is if BlaM is scum, MHaye is telling the truth, and we get the Therapist back - but I want to see a show of hands from those who wouldn't call it a tainted win. I like to win fairly. YMMV. Now, like you said, Pygmy seemed genuinely upset over a possibly game-breaking discussion after the Day should have ended. Malacandra's posts seem to be carefully backing up Pygmy's point of view. And, if we look at it objectively, it even makes sense: 1. The loss of one psychopath would be better (for them) than the resurrection of Dr Hockey. 2. If, even worse, BlasterMaster was a Psychopath as well, we wouldn't even talk about an exchange of citizen versus Dr Hockey but Psychopath versus Dr Hockey ... I'll go meta-gaming a bit. I'm going to take a gander at the Bingo card. I think there's interesting information to extract from it. I found it interesting that Mal became much more wiling to die, aka 'concerned about breaking the game', after the possibility of bringing back the doctor arises. When it was JSexton about to kill him Mal was piss and vinegar and not going gently and raging, raging, etc, and then all of a sudden he becomes an ethical altruist.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Aug 16, 2007 14:49:45 GMT -5
Last reply from me for a while - I actually have to get some work done and I have a rehearsal tonight. But: First of all, I was not being dishonest, simply because I didn't make sure that the quote number was the same. If you're going to sarcastically imply that someone lied about the brevity of his post, then you ought to check that the post to which he was referring wasn't brief. Idle asked for JSexton's choice of kill at #234 (5:28PM). At #239, JSexton posts: "Done. Good luck, town." He has chosen who to kill. At this point, further discussion of the situation is academic; it will not affect JSexton's decision because that decision has already been made. My post, the one you quoted, is at #244. Well, yes. But the point of my initial analysis was to consider how, exactly, things went down beginning with mhaye's role claim and ending with JSexton's kill decision. My contribution to that particular block of time was as I represented it, for better or for worse.
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Santo Rugger
Mome Rath
The Obviously Innocent Townie
The Rugger formerly known as Pygmy[on:BYAHH!][of:BYAHH?]
Posts: 3
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
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Post by Santo Rugger on Aug 16, 2007 15:16:35 GMT -5
Story, you're right on the order of the posts. Just because you posted after JSexton said he made his decision, does not mean that you can simply exclude your analysis of the situation, which you admit would have been similar (if not identical) had JSexton not posted that. I still feel like you're trying to get away with a technicality here. <snip> Well, yes. But the point of my initial analysis was to consider how, exactly, things went down beginning with mhaye's role claim and ending with JSexton's kill decision. My contribution to that particular block of time was as I represented it, for better or for worse.
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Aug 16, 2007 15:50:19 GMT -5
nesta (2) - storyteller0910, Mad the Swine Mad the Swine (1) - Blaster Master pygmyrugger (1) - Roosh
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Post by storyteller0910 on Aug 16, 2007 15:52:48 GMT -5
Story, you're right on the order of the posts. Just because you posted after JSexton said he made his decision, does not mean that you can simply exclude your analysis of the situation, which you admit would have been similar (if not identical) had JSexton not posted that. You're missing the point, but I can't tell if it's deliberate. I was explicitly not analyzing the entire Day, or the entire game. I was choosing a particular block of time that I found interesting. Specifically, I thought that scum action would be touched off by mhaye's role claim - because what he said he could do could potentially end the game for them. I figured after his role claim, they would be trying, in one way or another, to influence people to ignore mhaye but, more importantly, to not put his plan into effect. The scum needed to make sure JSexton didn't kill Blaster Master. Once JSexton had made and sent his choice, this particular scum action ended. Either they had succeeded, and JSexton was killing someone other than Blaster Master, or they had failed. But once JSexton sent that PM, it was over. So I chose to cut off my analysis at that point - what did the scum do to try to keep Blaster Master alive? My longer post, whatever else you may say of it, was not part of that effort, because it was made after JSexton made any decision at all. I'm not trying to "get away" with anything. If you want to talk about my longer post, go ahead. I'll happily discuss it. I've made no secret of the fact that I thought mhaye was lying, nor of my reasons why. But I'm not going to include it as part of an analysis of a very specific period of time in which it does not fit.
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