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Post by diggitcamara on Aug 16, 2007 16:33:01 GMT -5
I found it interesting that Mal became much more wiling to die, aka 'concerned about breaking the game', after the possibility of bringing back the doctor arises. When it was JSexton about to kill him Mal was piss and vinegar and not going gently and raging, raging, etc, and then all of a sudden he becomes an ethical altruist. Exactly my point. The funny thing is, though, that storyteller's retelling of the situation kind of... omits that part. As a matter of fact, he actually reverses the position Mal took.
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Post by capybara on Aug 16, 2007 16:44:23 GMT -5
I found it interesting that Mal became much more wiling to die, aka 'concerned about breaking the game', after the possibility of bringing back the doctor arises. When it was JSexton about to kill him Mal was piss and vinegar and not going gently and raging, raging, etc, and then all of a sudden he becomes an ethical altruist. Exactly my point. The funny thing is, though, that storyteller's retelling of the situation kind of... omits that part. As a matter of fact, he actually reverses the position Mal took. While I have your ear, Diggitt. . . tell me. You know I'm suspicious of Mal-NAF-- i don't think this is a surprise to anyone. Looking at the voting record, you have almost identical voting patterns-- I mean, practically voting twins-- and you've defended him a couple of times (3:112, 2:181 (the Mal as scapegoat for Drain theory, which I'm not a fan of but I've been through my thoughts on that before, but I can accept a range of interpretations of that series of events) for example). In light of yesterday, how do you feel about Mal?
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Post by diggitcamara on Aug 16, 2007 17:02:22 GMT -5
Exactly my point. The funny thing is, though, that storyteller's retelling of the situation kind of... omits that part. As a matter of fact, he actually reverses the position Mal took. While I have your ear, Diggitt. . . tell me. You know I'm suspicious of Mal-NAF-- i don't think this is a surprise to anyone. Looking at the voting record, you have almost identical voting patterns-- I mean, practically voting twins-- and you've defended him a couple of times (3:112, 2:181 (the Mal as scapegoat for Drain theory, which I'm not a fan of but I've been through my thoughts on that before, but I can accept a range of interpretations of that series of events) for example). In light of yesterday, how do you feel about Mal? I'll have to look at his actions yesterDay. His sudden change of mind at the end of the Day makes me reconsider him, though. Thing is: So far I'd been looking at his role as "counterweight" to drainbead's lynching as some sort of evidence that he wasn't scum himself. But, in light of yesterDay's events I found myself thinking that maybe, just maybe, the problem for the psychopaths resided in having not one but two of their number in danger of being eliminated from the game... I'll have to review his posts.
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Death By Irony
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Post by Death By Irony on Aug 16, 2007 17:33:55 GMT -5
Thinking out loud in a hypothetial situation - this just occured to me a while back while reading on everyone's discussions about Night Three. When Mhaye claimed Chia Bingo manager, there were 13 players still alive (I count JSexton as being officially dead at the time because pygmy already cast the hammering post). Let's say JSexton believes Mhaye's claim and kills Blaster Master. One of two things could have happened at this point: 1) Blaster Master turns up town. (Either a 8/13 chance or an 9/13 chance, depending on how many scum are still alive.) 2) Blaster Master turns up scum. (Either a 5/13 or 4/13 chance.) Then, overNight, the possible scenarios could have happened...(assuming Mhaye remained true to his word and chose to bring our dead Cop back from the dead). A) The scum try to kill Mhaye before he can use the power to resurrect (mhaye wasn't clear about when the resurrection takes place, so I'm assuming that it's a Night choice), but the doctor protects MHaye so the Night ends with a No Kill. B) Doctor doesn't believe Mhaye, so no protection takes place and Mhaye dies. C) The scum, figuring that Mhaye would be doctor protected, target dnooman; dnooman dies. (If the doctor protected dnooman for whatever reason, the result would be the same as 1A.) Then, toDay, we could have had the following scenarios: 1A) - 12 player town, Cop alive, 1 confirmed town. I'd consider asking the Geniuses to claim to help the Cop narrow her pool of people to investigate, and a gutsy Doc could also claim too and play chicken with the scum. 1B) - 11 player town, no Cop resurrection. In other words, we'd be in the same boat Today (except the Genius dnooman would still be alive, but we wouldn't know his alignment). 1C) - 11 player town, Cop alive, 1 confirmed town. 2A) - Best case scenario. We caught a scum, the Night Killed failed, the Cop comes back, and we have 1 confirmed town power role. Again, claiming would actually be a fairly good move at this point. 2B) - Same as 1B, except the scum loses one number. 2C) - Second best case scenario. So in all but one scenario, we'd be better off than we are now by asking JSexton to off BlasterMaster. And, if mhaye's ability takes place as soon as BlasterMaster dies, then we would have gone into Night with a living Cop who may have gotten an investigation that very Night. This is what nesta had to say about Blaster Master... The problem is that we have to sacrifice Blaster Master. He is an unknown, but he hasn't been one of the top suspected either. Although I can't be trusted since you don't know I'm town, I've had a town read on Blaster Master so far. Of course, my track record shows just how wrong I can be. Is it worth using your one-shot ability by sacrificing someone who at least to me is probably town to bring back the detective? And at the expense of JSexton possibly killing scum? I'm not sure. Maybe the above analysis didn't occur to nesta, either (and he would have had to consider the possibility of nesta being scum on top of those scenarios), but like I said before, I'm increasingly less inclined to give people the benefit of the doubt and I don't buy his explanation for why he said what he said. Still, I don't trust myself to think very clearly right now, so I'll just FoS nesta and, by extention, FoS Blaster Master. And now, I need to take a nap. Stupid weird sleep cycles have been messing with my body chemistry. Whenever I wake up, I'm going to reevaluate nesta and BM's posts again.
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Post by Mad The Swine on Aug 16, 2007 17:46:25 GMT -5
Why are you so sure there are either 4 or 5 scum Dotchan?
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Post by nesta on Aug 16, 2007 18:16:52 GMT -5
I don't want the town to spin its wheels trying to figure out just how scummy my think-out-loud post about mhaye was, so it looks like for better or worse you'll get at least part of your wish storyteller.
I'm a Genius. Yes, in name only, but that's what the PM said. I've been mentally calling myself a mason all game just to avoid the irony.
My suspicion of storyteller is real, and as you will all get to read on the genius board when this is over, I harped on it quite a bit last night after the mhaye thing. This was well before he made me target #1. That said, we had decided I should leave him alone today since it's still a very gut-feeling type case, and we had suspicions we thought were more solid.
So, where does that leave us? Hopefully with a town that isn't derailed by storyteller, whether he's town or scum. I claimed this early to give us enough time to look in the right places rather than spend all day with me and storyteller accusing each other.
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Post by NAF1138 on Aug 16, 2007 18:31:39 GMT -5
I don't want the town to spin its wheels trying to figure out just how scummy my think-out-loud post about mhaye was, so it looks like for better or worse you'll get at least part of your wish storyteller. I'm a Genius. Yes, in name only, but that's what the PM said. I've been mentally calling myself a mason all game just to avoid the irony. My suspicion of storyteller is real, and as you will all get to read on the genius board when this is over, I harped on it quite a bit last night after the mhaye thing. This was well before he made me target #1. That said, we had decided I should leave him alone today since it's still a very gut-feeling type case, and we had suspicions we thought were more solid. So, where does that leave us? Hopefully with a town that isn't derailed by storyteller, whether he's town or scum. I claimed this early to give us enough time to look in the right places rather than spend all day with me and storyteller accusing each other. Well...that was unexpected. So...anyone out there going to contradict him?
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Post by Mad The Swine on Aug 16, 2007 18:34:56 GMT -5
I don't want the town to spin its wheels trying to figure out just how scummy my think-out-loud post about mhaye was, so it looks like for better or worse you'll get at least part of your wish storyteller. I'm a Genius. Yes, in name only, but that's what the PM said. I've been mentally calling myself a mason all game just to avoid the irony. My suspicion of storyteller is real, and as you will all get to read on the genius board when this is over, I harped on it quite a bit last night after the mhaye thing. This was well before he made me target #1. That said, we had decided I should leave him alone today since it's still a very gut-feeling type case, and we had suspicions we thought were more solid. So, where does that leave us? Hopefully with a town that isn't derailed by storyteller, whether he's town or scum. I claimed this early to give us enough time to look in the right places rather than spend all day with me and storyteller accusing each other. Obviously if this is a false claim a real genius needs to counter. Looking over nesta's and dnoo's post I don't see any crumbs really indicating the other is a smartie,but unless a counter is made this has to be believed. Unvote Nesta
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Aug 16, 2007 18:39:04 GMT -5
nesta (1) - storyteller0910 Mad the Swine (1) - Blaster Master pygmyrugger (1) - Roosh
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Post by diggitcamara on Aug 16, 2007 18:47:31 GMT -5
(snip) Obviously if this is a false claim a real genius needs to counter. Looking over nesta's and dnoo's post I don't see any crumbs really indicating the other is a smartie,but unless a counter is made this has to be believed. (snip) Usually, the only one who needs to leave crumbs is the Cop. Geniuses/masons usually play their hand close to the vest and don't need to leave crumbs since they are able to confirm each other's identities. It gets tricky once there's only two of them left.
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RoOsh
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Post by RoOsh on Aug 16, 2007 18:48:07 GMT -5
This makes sense to me, and I'm willing to believe you Nesta, unless someone counterclaims you. You seem like one of my likely candidates for the "Genius" role, and now at least i can start to try to unravel this train a little bit more....
I'm curious to hear from StoryTeller at this point. Just to see where he goes from here....
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Post by Mad The Swine on Aug 16, 2007 18:56:41 GMT -5
(snip) Obviously if this is a false claim a real genius needs to counter. Looking over nesta's and dnoo's post I don't see any crumbs really indicating the other is a smartie,but unless a counter is made this has to be believed. (snip) Usually, the only one who needs to leave crumbs is the Cop. Geniuses/masons usually play their hand close to the vest and don't need to leave crumbs since they are able to confirm each other's identities. It gets tricky once there's only two of them left. I have never been one but I think it would be wise to leave some sorta crumb,in case ya get down to one genius with no claims on the table. In fact,if nesta is telling the truth the other genius should probably claim(assuming there are only two left.)
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Post by Mad The Swine on Aug 16, 2007 19:00:26 GMT -5
Day One
drainbead (8) - storyteller0910, Roosh, Mad The Swine, Blaster Master, GreedySmurf, dnooman, nesta, mhaye
GreedySmurf (5) - JSexton, Hal Briston, DiggitCamera, kat, Malacandra
Malacandra (4) - hockeymonkey, drainbead, cowgirl, capybara
Hal Briston (1) - pygmyrugger
Day 2 cowgirl (5) - dnooman, diggitcamara, Malacandra, Hal Briston, nesta Roosh (4) - dotchan, cowgirl, pygmyrugger, Mad the Swine Mad the Swine (2) - Storyteller0, capybara Malacandra (1) - JSexton diggitcamara (1) - GreedySmurf dotchan (1) - Roosh pygmyrugger (1) - Mhaye
I cant even find the Day3 votes, little help.
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Post by capybara on Aug 16, 2007 19:01:10 GMT -5
Well, slap my ass and call me Brezhnev. Interesting.
How does it affect the look of the old voting list? Did we not do one of those today, even? Maybe that's a Hockeymonkey tradition. Back to basics! Please hold. . .
Ok. If Nesta's claim holds up in court, Unofficially, and accepting any corrections:
Day One
drainbead (8) - storyteller0910, Roosh, Mad The Swine, Blaster Master, GreedySmurf, dnooman, nesta, mhaye
GreedySmurf (5) - JSexton, Hal Briston, DiggitCamera, kat, Malacandra
Malacandra (4) - hockeymonkey, drainbead, cowgirl, capybara
Hal Briston (1) - pygmyrugger
Day 2
cowgirl (5) - dnooman, diggitcamara, Malacandra, Hal Briston, nesta
Roosh (4) - dotchan, cowgirl, pygmyrugger, Mad the Swine
Mad the Swine (2) - Storyteller0, capybara
Malacandra (1) - JSexton
diggitcamara (1) - GreedySmurf
dotchan (1) - Roosh
pygmyrugger (1) - Mhaye
Day 3 JSexton (4) - nesta, mhaye, diggitcamara, Malacandra
Malacandra (4) - JSexton, dnooman, capybara, Greedy
Mad the Swine (1) - Blaster
Mhaye(1) - Dotchan
Run off: Jsexton (9): Diggitt, Dotchan, Mal, Blaster, Mad, Nesta, Story, MHaye, Pygmy
Malacandra (2): Capybara, Dnooman
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Post by capybara on Aug 16, 2007 19:02:41 GMT -5
Ah, simulpost with Mad.
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Post by Mad The Swine on Aug 16, 2007 19:12:24 GMT -5
Hey fast response on that call for help Cap Yours was way better though.
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Post by Greedy Smurf on Aug 16, 2007 20:23:00 GMT -5
First off though I'll say I believe Nesta's claim.
Secondly, great post Capybara, With it laid out like that I can't help but notice some trends.
As to the voting, my prime suspect since Day 1, Diggitcamera, shows up on the lynching team everytime, except the once - when I was the main wagon to derail Drainbeads lynching, and guess what - he votes for me.
Both Diggitcamera and NAFacandra have been on the same vote every time, but if they are both scum I'm not sure that would be smart play to be seen doing that. Or perhaps they thought it would be lost in the noise. Is it coincidence that the one time Maf was in real danger (Day 3) Diggit is on the other horse.
So I am voting for Diggitcamera, and have a FOS at Nafacandra
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Death By Irony
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Post by Death By Irony on Aug 16, 2007 20:35:20 GMT -5
Why are you so sure there are either 4 or 5 scum Dotchan? It was an assumption I was running with give the number of protown power roles: *Cop *Doctor *2 or 3 Daytalking Masons *Chia Bingo Master that can either resurrect or have NK immunity IIRC, in a town with no power roles generally the scum don't number more than 1/4th of the total population, but a total of 4 scum seemed like the game would be awfully hard for them to win, even with the Daytalking ability, especially since the Masons can also Daytalk. Although, now that I'm thinking about it again, we were not guarenteed a Sane Cop or a 100% effective Doctor, are we...? (Of course, now that the Cop is dead it's a moot point, but still.) ...and nesta has now claimed Genius. Hm. Time to run scenarios in my head again...
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Post by Hal Briston on Aug 16, 2007 21:41:20 GMT -5
[haunting voice] Just tossing a post in here to get my vote chart signature into the Day's thread. Carry on... [/haunting voice]
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Post by storyteller0910 on Aug 16, 2007 21:49:03 GMT -5
Oh, well, geez.
unvote nesta
And back to the drawing board.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Aug 16, 2007 21:49:31 GMT -5
Or I could actually use the colors:
unvote nesta
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Post by storyteller0910 on Aug 16, 2007 21:58:12 GMT -5
My suspicion of storyteller is real, and as you will all get to read on the genius board when this is over, I harped on it quite a bit last night after the mhaye thing. This was well before he made me target #1. That said, we had decided I should leave him alone today since it's still a very gut-feeling type case, and we had suspicions we thought were more solid. OK, this is all well and fine, but there's no way I can address this or answer it. I find it continually amazing that the only time I have ever been scum is the only time I've never seemed like scum to anyone. As regards Mal, and my characterization of his actions: I'm choosing to take his posts emphasizing the importance of following the rules at face value. I think it would be pretty bad form to make posts like that in bad faith. I think his in-game behavior has been as I characterized it - he has tried to stay alive more aggressively than most players - and I think his posts regarding the rules are largely out-of-game. I really can't manage more than that tonight. I've been at rehearsal for six hours, and I have a show opening tomorrow, so I'm way more scattered and tired than I ought to be. Apologies for any incoherence, and I'll be back with more of my particular brand of ridiculously misplaced confidence tomorrow.
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Post by nesta on Aug 16, 2007 23:57:32 GMT -5
My suspicion of storyteller is real, and as you will all get to read on the genius board when this is over, I harped on it quite a bit last night after the mhaye thing. This was well before he made me target #1. That said, we had decided I should leave him alone today since it's still a very gut-feeling type case, and we had suspicions we thought were more solid. OK, this is all well and fine, but there's no way I can address this or answer it. I find it continually amazing that the only time I have ever been scum is the only time I've never seemed like scum to anyone. Yes, I'm sorry about that. Whether you're town or scum I understand all too well how annoying it can be to be accused with no reason. Mad really pissed me off with his vote but refusing to make a case. I'll see what I can do to remedy that, but I'm not sure how much more time I'll have tonight. As regards Mal, and my characterization of his actions: I'm choosing to take his posts emphasizing the importance of following the rules at face value. I think it would be pretty bad form to make posts like that in bad faith. I think his in-game behavior has been as I characterized it - he has tried to stay alive more aggressively than most players - and I think his posts regarding the rules are largely out-of-game. I believe his frustration was genuine. That doesn't make him (and now NAF) town. His first three posts in response to JSexton's revelation that he was the CT were: 3.150: So in the run-off apparently an overwhelming majority have decided I'm not scum, and you're going to vindictively kill me anyway? "Inconceivable!" 3.152: By "half the voters" you mean "you and three others", yes? Dude, I'll take that bullet to see you off the town team. 3.159: If I read that thinking Malacandra is town I don't think the snark is called for. If I read it thinking he's scum it makes perfect sense. Well, I think the snark's called for, what with the whole "I'll ignore the will of the town and just assume I was right in the first place" business. I'm also wondering when the hell the deadline was, that JS is polling for votes at this time of Day. I take his frustration at face value, but I don’t think it was primarily fueled by the rules gray-area. It seems to me he was primarily annoyed by the fact that he was at the top of the list to be killed even though he had survived Day 3. Pygmy was another who seemed very frustrated that the rules were being violated. In my response to you earlier I asked if you thought my reaction was scummier than pygmy’s. You didn’t directly address pygmy’s post in your response to me. The post that stood out was: 3.214: Got a break from the music fest, quick thought dump: I think JSexton is going against the spirit of the rules. He should kill Malacandra like he said he was going to, and not be allowed by Idle Thoughts to do otherwise. I think mhays role claim is bunk. Ok. Shouldn't take too long. Yeah, "shouldn't take too long" to figure out what bingo board would best benefit the scum, and influence the town's votes during the day. I'm not buying it for a second. You accuse me of trying to cast doubt on mhaye’s claim. True, I was a skeptical and tried to explore the possibilities, but here’s pygmy arguing that Jsexton shouldn’t be allowed to choose whom to kill. This really strikes me as scum worried that the game has been lost on a rules violation. Somehow you found me asking legitimate questions shortly after mayhe’s claim more scummy than someone flat out saying that Jsexton shouldn’t be allowed to choose to act on it, and at the same time directly casting doubt instead of wondering if it might be true and how we should proceed. I’m not sure what to make of the pygmy vs. storyteller feud that broke out shortly after my saying they are both scum. Two scum trying to distance themselves after being linked? Pygmy sensing blood since one known town (me) cast doubt on another ( storyteller)? Pygmy seeing the same strange things about storyteller’s take on what happened that I am? I’ll need to think about that, but something isn’t right there. Right now I think that the scum were very frustrated and worried about what happened Yesterday, and pygmy and Mal tipped their hands. I think storyteller is too good of a player to dismiss this like he has, and instead tried to protect them by going after me. I could be wrong on all counts, or just one or two, but I really think there’s scum among them, and probably more than one.
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Aug 17, 2007 0:24:39 GMT -5
Mad the Swine (1) - Blaster Master pygmyrugger (1) - Roosh diggitcamara (1) - GreedySmurf
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Santo Rugger
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Post by Santo Rugger on Aug 17, 2007 0:28:41 GMT -5
<snip> You accuse me of trying to cast doubt on mhaye’s claim. True, I was a skeptical and tried to explore the possibilities, but here’s pygmy arguing that Jsexton shouldn’t be allowed to choose whom to kill. This really strikes me as scum worried that the game has been lost on a rules violation.<snip> If that were the case, I would have PMed Idle, and not made my thoughts public.
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Post by nesta on Aug 17, 2007 1:04:19 GMT -5
<snip> You accuse me of trying to cast doubt on mhaye’s claim. True, I was a skeptical and tried to explore the possibilities, but here’s pygmy arguing that Jsexton shouldn’t be allowed to choose whom to kill. This really strikes me as scum worried that the game has been lost on a rules violation.<snip> If that were the case, I would have PMed Idle, and not made my thoughts public. Bah. I wish that the whole mod-less time hadn't happened. I also wish I hadn't posted my last post, because even though it's what I've been thinking I'm not sure it's really valid. This type of looking for scum tells outside the general scope of the game is a bad idea. For the record I've found you, Mal, and storyteller scummy even before the mhaye thing, but it's stupid of me to try to confirm these suspicions based on a time when we were all unsure what was really going on. I apologize to you three for making this particular case. You could all be town for all I know in which case it's very unfair. Even if any of you are scum I completely understand the frustration with the situation and even agree with it. That's what I get for posting when I should be sleeping.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Aug 17, 2007 7:22:57 GMT -5
You accuse me of trying to cast doubt on mhaye’s claim. True, I was a skeptical and tried to explore the possibilities, but here’s pygmy arguing that Jsexton shouldn’t be allowed to choose whom to kill. This really strikes me as scum worried that the game has been lost on a rules violation. Somehow you found me asking legitimate questions shortly after mayhe’s claim more scummy than someone flat out saying that Jsexton shouldn’t be allowed to choose to act on it, and at the same time directly casting doubt instead of wondering if it might be true and how we should proceed. I’m not sure what to make of the pygmy vs. storyteller feud that broke out shortly after my saying they are both scum. Two scum trying to distance themselves after being linked? Pygmy sensing blood since one known town (me) cast doubt on another ( storyteller)? Pygmy seeing the same strange things about storyteller’s take on what happened that I am? I’ll need to think about that, but something isn’t right there. Right now I think that the scum were very frustrated and worried about what happened Yesterday, and pygmy and Mal tipped their hands. I think storyteller is too good of a player to dismiss this like he has, and instead tried to protect them by going after me. I could be wrong on all counts, or just one or two, but I really think there’s scum among them, and probably more than one. Wait a minute. I don't think you're being fair, or even honest. You're making it sound like I'm ignoring pygmy, or dismissing him. But in my very long post near the bottom of page 2, I distinctly say that I thought two players were scummy - you and pygmy. And the "pygmy vs. storyteller feud" to which you allude did not break out shortly after you called us scum - it began with my post, at the bottom of page 2, to which both you and pygmy separately took exception. As far as finding you scummier than pygmy, I was wrong, but I don't apologize for it. In my experience, trying to manipulate an outcome while trying to avoid the appearance of manipulating that outcome is a bit more worrisome than a more direct approach. I believe I have consistently said these things, and the fact that I was wrong about you in particular does not change my opinion on them in general. And now you have my in a stupid bind, because in spite of the fact that I brought up pygmy rugger as potentially scummy before anyone else did, and said that he was my number two suspect, if I vote for him it looks like I'm backtracking because of the way you've misinterpreted my actions. But you know what? Vote for who you think is most likely to be scum. For me, right now, that means a vote for pygmy rugger.
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Post by Mad The Swine on Aug 17, 2007 8:49:37 GMT -5
OK, this is all well and fine, but there's no way I can address this or answer it. I find it continually amazing that the only time I have ever been scum is the only time I've never seemed like scum to anyone. Yes, I'm sorry about that. Whether you're town or scum I understand all too well how annoying it can be to be accused with no reason. Mad really pissed me off with his vote but refusing to make a case. I'll see what I can do to remedy that, but I'm not sure how much more time I'll have tonight. You gonna be ok?I will try to spare your tender feelings from here on out. My vote for Drain was similar(at least drain thought so) and look where that led. You might think that this timed it back-fired and exposed a claimed genius but,at this point in the game, I don't really think that is such bad a thing either. I know I said I wasn't gonna do stuff like this anymore,but damn,it seems like an effective way to get results. vote everybody
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Death By Irony
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Post by Death By Irony on Aug 17, 2007 9:04:38 GMT -5
My vote for Drain was similar(at least drain thought so) and look where that led. Or you could have helped bus drain to gain town cred and influence future lynches. I can't tell if you're being eccentric town or gutsy scum using your previous playstyle as cover, but your behavior is making less and less sense. FoS MadtheSwineI'm not sold on nesta's claim, but for now I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. My FoS on him stays, though, until I have more proof one way or the other.
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Post by nesta on Aug 17, 2007 9:11:27 GMT -5
You gonna be ok?I will try to spare your tender feelings from here on out. I'll be fine. No need to try to spare my feelings.
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