Trepa Mayfield
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Day Two
Dec 8, 2008 12:05:43 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Dec 8, 2008 12:05:43 GMT -5
Now that it's Monday, and pretty much everyone has checked in, I'm fine with voting mmouse 7799Oh, we'll have to lynch a bomb eventually if we don't have a vig. I'm not saying we shouldn't lynch mmouse. I just don't know if it's the wisest course of action for toDay. After all, we don't even know if she is a bomb, a jester, or some other mechanic entirely. But she's pretty clearly sending signals that she wants to by lynched toDay. Do we really want to risk it? Is letting her live for another Day until we can get some more information that worse of an alternative? I'm not sure we can get much more information waiting a day. But if we do decide to wait, what would you recommend we do today?
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Day Two
Dec 8, 2008 12:06:53 GMT -5
Post by sinjin on Dec 8, 2008 12:06:53 GMT -5
Mod question: Can PFKs (assuming multiples) communicate between themselves outside of the main thread?Just a phuquing yes or no will do. So solly, story it looks like most Mod questions will be threaded as opposed to PM. I'm sure I'm missing the obvious again, but peeks can you point me to the post where story] mentioned sending a Mod question via PM.
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Day Two
Dec 8, 2008 12:23:12 GMT -5
Post by sinjin on Dec 8, 2008 12:23:12 GMT -5
NETA: Or the post where you discussed sending a PM'd Mod question that wasn't answered. And the reason you are apologizing to story for it.
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Death By Irony
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The Former Mandate of Heaven/Current Gastard Night Mod
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Day Two
Dec 8, 2008 12:42:44 GMT -5
Post by Death By Irony on Dec 8, 2008 12:42:44 GMT -5
Hoopy, don't you think if we had an active Vig they would have already taken MMouse out? Except we don't know if we even have a Vig, or if there indeed is one, what he or she did last Night. (Wasn't there at least one game where a non-compulsory Vig chose not to kill on Night 1, and a minor hubbub resulted the next Day when somebody complained about this?)
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Day Two
Dec 8, 2008 13:13:32 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Dec 8, 2008 13:13:32 GMT -5
We know we've had two townies die who had the potential to become Vigs. In my mind, this puts the possibility of other Vig roles still being in the game firmly in the area of "unlikely", regardless of whether or not the unlikely holders of that role have decided not to utilize it, or got blocked, or happened to double up on Mhaye as a target, etc.
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Day Two
Dec 8, 2008 13:17:05 GMT -5
Post by peekercpa on Dec 8, 2008 13:17:05 GMT -5
NETA: Or the post where you discussed sending a PM'd Mod question that wasn't answered. And the reason you are apologizing to story for it. It was in the sign up thread where story said something to the effect that he was happy to be playing this game with me rather than having to mod again because he got so sick of answering my PM's during Skrull. Matter of fact, there at the end of Skrull he pretty much ignored any questions I had. And then caveated it with a warning to idle about my propensity to sending questions via PM. So far my questions seem to be running down the more generic avenenue as opposed to having to do with with role specificity (as in Skrull). It was a tongue in cheek apology since I apparently am not making life as difficult for Idle as I did for him.
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Day Two
Dec 8, 2008 13:44:23 GMT -5
Post by Høøpy Frøød on Dec 8, 2008 13:44:23 GMT -5
I'm not sure we can get much more information waiting a day. But if we do decide to wait, what would you recommend we do today? Talk, of course. I'm not saying I won't be voting for mmouse myself closer to the end of the Day, but we're unlikely to get anything out of toDay if we all just decide to vote mmouse and be done with it. Usually the straightforward lynch days lead to no new info for that Day. I'd rather not see that happen. We also have a few real-time days remaining to discuss this, so what's the rush?
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Day Two
Dec 8, 2008 13:51:11 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Dec 8, 2008 13:51:11 GMT -5
The more mmouse talks the more convinced I become that she's a Bob-omb. Maybe we should just leave her alone? Once a Bob-omb's fuse had lit, it would chase Mario around for a while before exploding. So long as Mario stayed out of the blast radius, he'd be fine. Maybe that's what we're meant to do?
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Day Two
Dec 8, 2008 14:03:43 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Dec 8, 2008 14:03:43 GMT -5
The more mmouse talks the more convinced I become that she's a Bob-omb. Maybe we should just leave her alone? Once a Bob-omb's fuse had lit, it would chase Mario around for a while before exploding. So long as Mario stayed out of the blast radius, he'd be fine. Maybe that's what we're meant to do? I'm not very keen on trying to reverse-engineer roles based on SMB color, but I'd like to ask a few questions anyway. If not by voting to lynch a bob-omb, how else would the fuse be lit? Are you suggesting that just by claiming in a half-assed fashion, some PFK or scum power is already ticking? Are there any precedents for bombs being set with only a single vote or a percentage of total votes vs being selected as a lynch target?
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Santo Rugger
Mome Rath
The Obviously Innocent Townie
The Rugger formerly known as Pygmy[on:BYAHH!][of:BYAHH?]
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Day Two
Dec 8, 2008 14:11:42 GMT -5
Post by Santo Rugger on Dec 8, 2008 14:11:42 GMT -5
Hoopy, don't you think if we had an active Vig they would have already taken MMouse out? Except we don't know if we even have a Vig, or if there indeed is one, what he or she did last Night. (Wasn't there at least one game where a non-compulsory Vig chose not to kill on Night 1, and a minor hubbub resulted the next Day when somebody complained about this?) Kindly reread my post you quoted. kthxbye.
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Total Ullz
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You can take the girl out of mafia - but you can't take mafia out of the girl
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Day Two
Dec 8, 2008 14:16:51 GMT -5
Post by Total Ullz on Dec 8, 2008 14:16:51 GMT -5
I'm still not sure what to make of the debacle-debacle and the lynch of Bufftabby. But I can't seem to find the post from SANTO about the debacle (the one that was lost and that SANTO said would be re-written). It was something about it being a very different angel to the debacle. Could anyone please help me with a link Sorry - I found it. Was a good read What I don't get is why we only seem to be able to talk about MM7799 toDay. I still agree on the lynch (thought slighty worried about the fake-innoncent approach MM7799 seems to try to make) - but we still could talk about other issues. [Oog I can't qoute from Day 1 anymore - but I see other do it - HOW? It's driving me mad /Oog]
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Day Two
Dec 8, 2008 14:19:19 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Dec 8, 2008 14:19:19 GMT -5
Fuck fuck fuck, sorry, lots of snowballing issues in the last few days. I'll catch up and post ASAP.
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Trepa Mayfield
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Does Not Follow Directions
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Day Two
Dec 8, 2008 14:32:58 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Dec 8, 2008 14:32:58 GMT -5
I'm not sure we can get much more information waiting a day. But if we do decide to wait, what would you recommend we do today? Talk, of course. I'm not saying I won't be voting for mmouse myself closer to the end of the Day, but we're unlikely to get anything out of toDay if we all just decide to vote mmouse and be done with it. Usually the straightforward lynch days lead to no new info for that Day. I'd rather not see that happen. We also have a few real-time days remaining to discuss this, so what's the rush? Oh, yeah, that's fine. I said something earlier upthread to the same effect.
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Day Two
Dec 8, 2008 14:34:16 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Dec 8, 2008 14:34:16 GMT -5
I'm still not sure what to make of the debacle-debacle and the lynch of Bufftabby. But I can't seem to find the post from SANTO about the debacle (the one that was lost and that SANTO said would be re-written). It was something about it being a very different angel to the debacle. Could anyone please help me with a link Sorry - I found it. Was a good read What I don't get is why we only seem to be able to talk about MM7799 toDay. I still agree on the lynch (thought slighty worried about the fake-innoncent approach MM7799 seems to try to make) - but we still could talk about other issues. [Oog I can't qoute from Day 1 anymore - but I see other do it - HOW? It's driving me mad /Oog] You can still quote manually via cut and paste, but once a thread is locked you can no longer hit the "quote" button.
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Day Two
Dec 8, 2008 14:40:15 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Dec 8, 2008 14:40:15 GMT -5
OK, ASAP is sooner than I thought.
mmouse is a weird subject. She's obviously going the Iago route - "demand me nothing. What you know, you know" - and we're not going to get her to give us more than that. Analyzing her actions so far brings up a bunch of possibilities. The first and most obvious is this: she is not a PFK who loses if she dies. One way or another, her win condition must contain some caveat that allows her to win even if she's dead. Let's start by taking her at her word, and assume that she's actually PFK.
Now, either: (1) she wins immediately if she dies; or (2) she doesn't. If (1), then either (1A) she wins exclusively if she dies; or (1B) she wins if she dies but the game continues for the rest of us. Of these two, I discount 1A as rather unfair, and also rather boring from a design standpoint (why design a game that could be over by Dusk of Day One?). 1B is a possibility, but if it's the case, mmouse should die toDay, because it's no skin off our nose if she wins, and her death moves us toward our new win condition.
Now let's move on to (2) mmouse dies with her outcome undetermined. From here we have multiple branching possibilities: (2A) She dies and her winning or losing is outside of her control; (2B) she dies and yet somehow gets to keep playing or influencing the outcome - think the Angel and Devil roles from Gastard; or (2C) she dies, but she is not a solo PFK - she has a partner (think sinjin and kassia from Blade Runner) and her death in some way forwards the cause of that PFK partnership.
Of the three, 2A seems monumentally unlikely; why would a player court death so enthusiastically if that death ended her chance to influence winning or losing? 2B is absolutely possible, and so is 2C. If it's 2B, we'd really be better off keeping her alive, where she can be blocked, redirected, and so on as our available powers dictate. If 2C, she can die, because even if her partner benefits we're going to have to catch them both eventually.
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Then there's the possibility that mmouse is lying, and is Scum. In such a case, her death may serve any number of possible ends, enough so that listing them all here wouldn't be very profitable. If she's a bomb, it's entirely possible that her ability to kill will only affect someone who has voted for her (either randomly or by her choice). Given that, if we come to the conclusion that she is going to be our lynch target toDay - and it looks like we're getting close to that point already - we should carefully discuss how to handle the voting process.
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So there it is. How to handle mmouse is beyond me right now. I agree that there is unlikely to be a full Vig, given that she survived the Night, but that does not mean that there aren't multiple potential Vigs out there. I don't know if we have a blocker, a redirector, or something even more exotic that might be able to handle her in a way other than lynching. I do know that: (1) lynching her seems almost mod-mandated, at this point, given the altered win condition; and (2) talking about it much more - other than from a technical perspective, as I allude above - isn't going to bear a lot more fruit.
Given that, let's change the subject. I have something to mention, in my next post, shortly forthcoming.
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Day Two
Dec 8, 2008 14:41:25 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Dec 8, 2008 14:41:25 GMT -5
If not by voting to lynch a bob-omb, how else would the fuse be lit? I'm suggesting that mmouse's fuse was lit from the beginning -- ie, she's a bomb with a time limit.
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Day Two
Dec 8, 2008 14:43:30 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Dec 8, 2008 14:43:30 GMT -5
The more mmouse talks the more convinced I become that she's a Bob-omb. Maybe we should just leave her alone? Once a Bob-omb's fuse had lit, it would chase Mario around for a while before exploding. So long as Mario stayed out of the blast radius, he'd be fine. Maybe that's what we're meant to do? Didn't see that when I posted. Interesting, and a possibility that hadn't occurred. If she has an expiration date, getting lynched and wasting a mislynch would be hugely valuable, especially if she is Scum. Hmmmm.
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Day Two
Dec 8, 2008 14:46:17 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Dec 8, 2008 14:46:17 GMT -5
I am swamped today, tomorrow should be better for me (hell later today might be better with the way my workflow has been flowing recently.)
Just my quick $.02.
She claimed PFK, we must lynch all PFK. If she is a bomb or Jester and lynching her is a game ender...I have to say I am not sure I mind. If that's the type of game we are playing in, then I am ok with ending it. If she is a bomb then at least we have her out of the way and we know more about the setup.
I say we lynch her today and be done with it, or we will have the spectre of her nonclaim hanging over our heads for the rest of the game. If we can I say we move on to another topic for now, if not I guess we end the Day early and hope for a good Night 2 and start fresh Day 3.
I will myself volunteer to be the hammer vote so we don't end the Day too early, and I will hold off placing my vote on her until it's hammer time by group consent.
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Day Two
Dec 8, 2008 14:48:44 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Dec 8, 2008 14:48:44 GMT -5
The more mmouse talks the more convinced I become that she's a Bob-omb. Maybe we should just leave her alone? Once a Bob-omb's fuse had lit, it would chase Mario around for a while before exploding. So long as Mario stayed out of the blast radius, he'd be fine. Maybe that's what we're meant to do? Didn't see that when I posted. Interesting, and a possibility that hadn't occurred. If she has an expiration date, getting lynched and wasting a mislynch would be hugely valuable, especially if she is Scum. Hmmmm. Wait, you are saying you think she is going to blow up sooner or later regardless as opposed to blowing up when we lynch her? Hmm, as a PFK I don't think that works, and that seems like a terrible thing to do to scum...on the other hand we did just have our win condition changed on us, so what the hell do I know?
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Day Two
Dec 8, 2008 14:53:05 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Dec 8, 2008 14:53:05 GMT -5
OK, let's talk about peekercpa, back on page 2, post #58. I have inverted the order of his post, to simplify my answering:
Now, here's the thing. Operating on NAF's Day One principle that "the Scum aren't stupid," I'm going to just up and say it: peeker is strongly intimating here that he has not received a PM about the change in win condition. If he has not, than there is a larger issue here - either peeker is Scum/PFK or the Town has somehow been split in terms of win condition. That would be... odd, and difficult to navigate, but if it's the case, I want to know it. Of course, peeker could just be yanking chains, so I'll just go ahead and ask the crowd: Is anyone willing to publicly state that they did not receive a PM with a changed win condition?
It certainly seems possible, doesn't it? It would imply all sorts of things about the game setup - a weaker Scum side (or, of course, no Scum at all, which is by no means impossible). Not sure how we can figure out anything more than that without a gross overshare, which would be a bad idea right now.
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Day Two
Dec 8, 2008 15:26:43 GMT -5
Post by Idle Thoughts on Dec 8, 2008 15:26:43 GMT -5
mmouse - 5 votes (Santo, Mr Special Ed, Cookies, misterblockey, Pedescribe) NAF - 1 vote (peekercpa)
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Day Two
Dec 8, 2008 16:05:57 GMT -5
Post by peekercpa on Dec 8, 2008 16:05:57 GMT -5
OK, let's talk about peekercpa, back on page 2, post #58. I have inverted the order of his post, to simplify my answering: Now, here's the thing. Operating on NAF's Day One principle that "the Scum aren't stupid," I'm going to just up and say it: peeker is strongly intimating here that he has not received a PM about the change in win condition. If he has not, than there is a larger issue here - either peeker is Scum/PFK or the Town has somehow been split in terms of win condition. That would be... odd, and difficult to navigate, but if it's the case, I want to know it. Of course, peeker could just be yanking chains, so I'll just go ahead and ask the crowd: Is anyone willing to publicly state that they did not receive a PM with a changed win condition? It certainly seems possible, doesn't it? It would imply all sorts of things about the game setup - a weaker Scum side (or, of course, no Scum at all, which is by no means impossible). Not sure how we can figure out anything more than that without a gross overshare, which would be a bad idea right now. Actually I got the PM that has now been included as part of the vanilla role thread. When I first got this I thought shiny and then saw that some others had gotten the same message. Initially I thought that it might be something to be parlayed to town's advantage. Now, that it appears that it is public knowledge by inclusion in said vanilla thread I see that any leverage is non existent. Didn't mean to lead you or anyone else for that matter down a bunny hole but at the time thought that discrection might prove useful. Apparently not.
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Day Two
Dec 8, 2008 17:49:30 GMT -5
Post by special on Dec 8, 2008 17:49:30 GMT -5
If not by voting to lynch a bob-omb, how else would the fuse be lit? I'm suggesting that mmouse's fuse was lit from the beginning -- ie, she's a bomb with a time limit. So she may be a Scum bomb with a time limit? needing to be lynched by a certain Day to be a Bomb?
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Day Two
Dec 8, 2008 18:26:08 GMT -5
Post by shaggy on Dec 8, 2008 18:26:08 GMT -5
Hey everybody, I can see maybe her being a bomb and wanting to be taken out, cause then she can take out one or more as well. I have a hard time believing that lynching her would loose us the game. Because our win condition is lynching all PFK's, how do we do that if we lose by lynching them? I cannot see us being given a win condition that we cannot obtain. Other wise then the MOD would be swaying the game to the SCUM, which MOD's especially this one, would not do that! There is no way we would be given a un-obtainable win condition. So I would assume that her win condition couldn’t be game over. The bomb though I could see, for the FB people look at LOTR's, that had a character that self exploded after a certain time passed. Combine that with the fact that she seems to me to be almost daring us to lynch her.
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Gir!
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Day Two
Dec 8, 2008 19:14:11 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Dec 8, 2008 19:14:11 GMT -5
So then, if she's (a) a bomb that goes off when she's lynched: it'd make no difference if we lynch her toDay or later (unless she has other abilities, in which case it'd be better to lynch her toDay*) (b) a time-bomb that goes off at a certain point whether she's lynched or not: we could not lynch her, and let her go off, except that we don't know how long her timer is, plus she could have other abilities that would make it better to lynch her or (c) not a bomb at all: it'd make no difference if we lynch her toDay or later (unless she has other abilities, in which case it'd be better to lynch her toDay*)
*Yes, she claimed to have no Night Action, but she could be lying, she could have a Day Action, or she could have some kind of passive ability which doesn't technically count as an "Action".
I'm going to do my laundry now. If mmouse comes back sometime tonight and posts a believable fullclaim that provides a reason not to lynch her, I'll consider not voting for her. Otherwise, I'll join the bandwagon, and then start looking at other people for the next lynch (or to supplant her, if it comes to that).
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Day Two
Dec 8, 2008 19:29:13 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Dec 8, 2008 19:29:13 GMT -5
So she may be a Scum bomb with a time limit? needing to be lynched by a certain Day to be a Bomb? I am terrible at expressing my thoughts sometimes. I think that mmouse is a Bob-omb. If we lynch her, she blows up and takes one of her down with his. If we leave her alone, she'll blow up on her own in good time, killing only herself.
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Day Two
Dec 8, 2008 19:37:59 GMT -5
Post by peekercpa on Dec 8, 2008 19:37:59 GMT -5
Well, I'll echo shaggy and say that in having us now need to lynch PFKs as the town win condition but then making that unobtainable would make the game broken, I don't think Idle is that kind of mod. Now having said that who the clue really knows at this point.
And Idle seemed to be pretty confident about something odd happening at dawn on Day two. That means that either he had it planned all along or that some Day action folk was/were already at work.
I can't see how mmousenumber advaces his/her cause by creating more focus unless it's in his or her best interest. Therfore, I will not be voting in that direction toDay unless someone really comes up with a very compelling argument.
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Day Two
Dec 8, 2008 19:44:34 GMT -5
Post by sinjin on Dec 8, 2008 19:44:34 GMT -5
So she may be a Scum bomb with a time limit? needing to be lynched by a certain Day to be a Bomb? I am terrible at expressing my thoughts sometimes. I think that mmouse is a Bob-omb. If we lynch her, she blows up and takes one of her down with his. If we leave her alone, she'll blow up on her own in good time, killing only herself. Heh, I don't recall that you were unclear expressing your thoughts in other games. I always thought you were an excellent player. Ego massaging done. So given your theory, what's her win condition if she eventually blows up anyway? Seems like the crappiest of crappy roles.
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Day Two
Dec 8, 2008 19:53:34 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Dec 8, 2008 19:53:34 GMT -5
So given your theory, what's her win condition if she eventually blows up anyway? Seems like the crappiest of crappy roles. I don't believe that she's PFK. I believe that she's scum.
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Day Two
Dec 8, 2008 20:18:40 GMT -5
Post by peekercpa on Dec 8, 2008 20:18:40 GMT -5
Hey rysto. I tend to agree and disagree at the same time. Any reason why you say scum as opposed to PFK with some odd win condition? I mean yeah it sure doesn't feel like a PFK claim but what in the world could scum motivation be?
I mis spoke earlier when I said she had helped in the set up and color of games. In re-reading her post is was one game. But having said that surely he/she knows that a PFK claim is sure to raise eyebrows. And not in a generous manner.
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