|
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Jan 20, 2009 18:37:10 GMT -5
I think I understand. If there are 2 scum left, then I would think that Hoopy was a) wrong about at least 1 of the confirmed or b) lying about at least one of the confirmed, or c) that you are lying. If Hoopy is wrong, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're lying or that (if you were lying) you'd be the only one lying.
|
|
|
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Jan 20, 2009 18:41:03 GMT -5
And thanks for making me feel like one of the two comic-relief guards from the Pirates of the Caribbean franchise.
Murtogg: The Black Pearl is a real ship. Mullroy: No, it's not. Murtogg: Yes it is, I've seen it. Mullroy: You've seen it? Murtogg: Yes. Mullroy: You haven't seen it. Murtogg: Yes, I have. Mullroy: You've seen a ship with black sails that's crewed by the damned, and captained by a man so evil that Hell itself spat him back out? Murtogg: No. Mullroy: No. Murtogg: But I have seen a ship with black sails. [Jack quietly slips passed them unnoticed] Mullroy: Oh, and no ship that's not crewed by the damned and captained by a man so evil that Hell itself spat him back out could possibly have black sails, therefore couldn't possibly be any other ship than the Black Pearl. Is that what you're telling me? Murtogg: [nods] No. Mullroy: Like I said, there's no real ship as can match the Interceptor.
|
|
|
Post by Høøpy Frøød on Jan 20, 2009 19:10:44 GMT -5
See Hoopy it's this double talk that makes me so suspicious of you. You say here that you are not sure I am scummy. But you previously stated twice, as quoted above, that you chose not to investigate me because you KNEW I was scummy. When did I say I knew you were scummy? Kindly point out the post. I did say "I'm not out to find scum". I don't know how that equates to "I know Sinjin is scummy". I saw your power as anti-town. I saw someone else claim the same power you had, and while he didn't turn out to be anti-town, he wasn't pro-town either. I also saw someone who couldn't even see how her own power was anti-town. In all honesty, I figured the odds were better that you were scum than not. But that doesn't mean I'm certain your scum. I didn't exactly see you press to be investigated the day you claimed, and really, I was more concerned with the bomber at that point. That night, I came to the reasonable assumption that it would be my last investigation. The doctor was likely to die that night, and I would follow the next. (Not as if I could predict the castle thing, now could i?) So I wanted to completely confirm someone I thought was town. Because just as anti-town does not necessarily equal pro-scum, neither does pro-town mean that the action isn't pro-scum as well. After all, you FOS'ed TL on Day 4. And you were giving credence to the whole FaceBook thing that Day as well. Are you going to sit there and tell me you would never have brought either of those points up again later in the game? She took heat that Day. I figured her for town, so I investigated her for the same reasons I investigated everyone with the exception of Ed and Kat. (Ed was tangentially involved in a lot of crap that went down day 1. He was a wonderful starting data point. Kat was WIFOM'ed by DBI.) There was a discussion in the forbidden thread of Evil Dead about detectives outing scum versus confirming town. It is almost always better if they can find town, because everyone acts anti-town at some point in the game. IIRC, I think NAF mentioned how he once got burned because he investigated someone who he thought was scum over someone he thought was town, and it resulted in the game lasting longer than had he investigated the townie. I didn't think you were necessarily scum, but I put your odds at being one higher than TL. That's why I investigated her. You can say my strategy was bad, but to view it as pro-scum without seeing the pro-town aspect of it is a dishonest argument.
|
|
|
Post by sinjin on Jan 20, 2009 19:44:16 GMT -5
Oh for Og's sake Hoopy in answer to my questions asking why you didn't investigate me you said:
and
If that didn't mean you were convinced I was scum what exactly did you mean?
And what kind of a town investigator chooses to NOT find scum at this point in the game but rather chooses to confirm as town someone who is under NO pressure of being lynched? Are you really proposing that because I FOS'd totallost on day 4 that she was in imminent danger of being lynched? Really?
You say you wanted to use your investigation to completely confirm that someone you were certain was town was indeed town. But with that same investigation you could have just as easily confirmed that someone you thought was scum was indeed scum or conversely confirmed that person was town. You could have killed two* birds with one stone. Isn't that a much more pro-town result?
*Actually three, because of the real possibility of two mislynches.
|
|
|
Post by Høøpy Frøød on Jan 20, 2009 20:03:10 GMT -5
Oh for Og's sake Hoopy in answer to my questions asking why you didn't investigate me you said: and If that didn't mean you were convinced I was scum what exactly did you mean? What I meant in the first statement was not his PM (which I had evidence was fake) but his original claim which I pressed him on and it eveantually got him to break out the PM. I didn't know for certain he was full of it, but I thought the odds were high. So yeah, I misworded that, but I didn't believe you any more than I believed him. That's far from being "certain" you're scum. Did you even look at the thread I referenced on the Dope? The investigator was in the End game and chose wrongly by finding scum. We were still in midgame when I investigated TL. No, but I'm not going to sit and try to predict what people are going to do when I'm dead, either. Not necessarily. And I think many previous investigators will back me up on that one. I would even posit that its frequently less useful, but honestly this would be a discussion better had with NAF or Story or those with far more experience than I. You should really start observing some games. It's amazing what you learn from watching from the outside. Particularly since when you are spoiled, those you discuss with have no agenda of their own. Town, Scum, doesn't matter at that point. You get the unvarnished truth. So you can say that my play was sub-optimal, and given the situation, particularly if you come up town, I might be inclined to agree. But just because my play was sub-optimal does not make it scummy. Particularly since it wasn't a "bad" choice. It just might not have been the best. No one plays a perfect game. Even the good players screw up, and often times repeatedly in the same game. It happens all the time. But that doesn't make them scum. If you would remove your own confirmation bias and look it from the standpoint that I don't know what you are, you might possibly see that.
|
|
|
Post by sinjin on Jan 20, 2009 20:27:45 GMT -5
No, sorry, I did not read the evil dead spoiler thread. You did not link to it and as I look on the SDMB now it is pages long. I am playing this game not that one. You keep saying you don't believe me but you that you also don't think I'm scummy how am I supposed to parse that To me it almost seems like you want to kill me because you don't like scotsman roles in mafia games on principle. Good OG, do you have a fucking mirror. Remove your confirmation bias and see that I know less than you do. I'm the one under the gun here. And I'm totally paranoid that you are either scum or have your head stuck so far up your ass with your meta-gaming that you're going to lose the game for us.
|
|
|
Post by sinjin on Jan 20, 2009 20:35:02 GMT -5
NETA: And I meant that last remark in the nicest, momish possible way. Bygones.
|
|
|
Post by Høøpy Frøød on Jan 20, 2009 21:37:43 GMT -5
NETA: And I meant that last remark in the nicest, momish possible way. Bygones. No offense taken. ;D And I'll admit, I have confirmation bias, but that's because my role is all about confirmation bias. It's what I do. Confirm people. And I've got a whole list of them that I see as town. You're not on it. That's my confirmation bias. You can make the argument that my not investigating you was confirmation bias. Quite possible. I figured you were more apt to be scum than TL. (Note: if it makes you feel any better, I probably would have investigated you before blockey, in fact, when I investigated AH, I had actually originally decided to investigate blockey because he gave us nothing to look at. I then thought better of it and realized that those who leave no datapoints are typically better to be just lynched. Lynch-the-non-participating may or may not be effective on Day 1, but it's pretty effective in end game.) And as far as my believing you, stop approaching it from black and white. I didn't believe you with your claim. Now that doesn't mean I'm sure you're lying or that I can't be convinced to change my mind, it means, given what I know at that point in time, I don't believe you. You haven't really given me a whole lot of reason to change my mind on that. As far as not liking scotsman roles in mafia games on principle. Well, I have no problems with the night-kill resistant mechanic. It's a pro mechanic regardless of alignment. But lynch resistance isn't. It's anti-town. Your role power is only pro-town as long as it stays hidden. Once you claim, scum will never target you because they lose the night kill. And town in order to confirm you has to either kill you or investigate you. Really, a role like yours is great for a vig to balance. And with an active vig in a game, your liability to town decreases dramatically. Because unlike a detective, who is pretty much useful every night and should always use their power. A vig is often times better served to be selective. Once a role like yours is exposed, you become a perfect vig target. Because your liability to town is removed. The bonus is if your role get to identify the person who made an attempt on your life, you can quasi-confirm a vig should it come to it, because scum and the SK are unlikely to night-kill you. (They might try to do it for WIFOM, but then you've forced them to waste a kill. It's a win for town anyway.) Idle only gave us one active role to counter your anti-town aspect, and that's mine. Personally, I view that as a bit gastardly for both of us assuming we're town, but that's just my view. From what I've seen, the definitions of gastardly have a fairly wide span in these parts. The only reason we're having this discussion is because I'm still alive. If I weren't you could never be confirmed without us spending two lynches on you. Do you see why your power is anti-town? So I might not have played optimally. But you haven't really put forth a solid case of where I've been pro-scum. You're case against me seems to be that I'm scum because I pushed for your lynch and didn't investigate you when you think I should have. And from that, you've built up a bunch of supporting points that to you appear to be scummy motivated, but that as I have shown have just as much if not more pro-town motivation as well. My bias comes down to mechanics. Yours comes down to what you view as bad play on my part. Our biases are different.
|
|
|
Post by sinjin on Jan 20, 2009 22:15:18 GMT -5
Hoopy you just posted a lot of words and have again totally ignored why I came to think you were scum. You say I haven't given you any reason to think I'm not scum. How the hell am I supposed to do that? The only proof it appears you will accept is my death.
You say my role is great as long as it is not revealed. Does this mean you would have been less suspicious of me if I had false claimed as vanilla after all the unconfirmed were ordered to claim? I think not.
You claim that my role was not only useless but anti-town. We had an SK in this game just as in the Batman game. My role could have prevented his kill one night or stopped a scum kill. I don't find that a useless or anti-town role.
I did not claim until I was called upon to claim by you. I didn't lie about my role. When I claimed I became known as a one night non-night killable town to scum. How could this be seen as a detriment to town. You could have investigated me and confirmed me as an asset to town instead of a liability. You chose not to and are now blaming me for being a liability. Scum are probably totally laughing their asses off about this even as we type.
I ask you: how could I have possibly changed your mind except by committing suicide on the town steps?
|
|
|
Post by sinjin on Jan 20, 2009 22:31:37 GMT -5
This is just bullshit. I have answered this at least twice now. FOR THE LAST TIME:
My case against you is:
I think there are two scum left. Yesterday the choices were me, Cookies and Mr. Blockey. I was sure the two scum were Cookies and Mr. Blockey. Given that Mr. Blockey turned up town and that I know I am not scum I had to look for who else could be the second scum. The only other candidates were KidV and YOU. Your relentless attack on me focused my attention on you. And your continued obtuseness on this point is further convincing me that I am correct.
The fact that you deliberately chose not to investigate me is merely corroborating evidence.
|
|
|
Post by Høøpy Frøød on Jan 20, 2009 22:49:48 GMT -5
I did not claim until I was called upon to claim by you. I didn't lie about my role. When I claimed I became known as a one night non-night killable town to scum. How could this be seen as a detriment to town. Simple. What if such a role is claimed by scum? Are we going to give carte blanche to scum to just claim Town Strongman/Scottsman/lynch-resistant-what-have you from now on? Are we going to force all our detectives to drop everything and investigate everyone who claims strongman from now on? What if they're the godfather who detects as town? Look, instant perfect cover. Town doesn't want to risk wasting a lynch, and I show up as town anyway. (Doesn't apply in this game at this point, unless there's a back-up godfather.) Maybe I'll try that next time I end up scum. Because the only way I can ever be confirmed in a case like this involves me tying up some pro-town power be it the role or the lynch. It could be a very useful strategy for scum given the right circumstances. And if the investigator doesn't investigate me, well, I can accuse him of being scummy, because clearly that's what he should have done.
|
|
|
Post by sinjin on Jan 20, 2009 23:04:52 GMT -5
I did not claim until I was called upon to claim by you. I didn't lie about my role. When I claimed I became known as a one night non-night killable town to scum. How could this be seen as a detriment to town. Simple. What if such a role is claimed by scum? Are we going to give carte blanche to scum to just claim Town Strongman/Scottsman/lynch-resistant-what-have you from now on? Are we going to force all our detectives to drop everything and investigate everyone who claims strongman from now on? What if they're the godfather who detects as town? Look, instant perfect cover. Town doesn't want to risk wasting a lynch, and I show up as town anyway. (Doesn't apply in this game at this point, unless there's a back-up godfather.) Maybe I'll try that next time I end up scum. Because the only way I can ever be confirmed in a case like this involves me tying up some pro-town power be it the role or the lynch. It could be a very useful strategy for scum given the right circumstances. And if the investigator doesn't investigate me, well, I can accuse him of being scummy, because clearly that's what he should have done. I don't even know how to answer such irrationality in a rational manner. Come back when you can make some sense or at least have pie.
|
|
|
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Jan 20, 2009 23:12:01 GMT -5
I'd kinda like to hear from Kat and Mitey and AH, if y'all are out there...
|
|
|
Post by sinjin on Jan 20, 2009 23:24:32 GMT -5
I would like to hear something from those sitting in the warmth of the "confirmed" hot tub. Do you guys have anything to say at all? Have you read any of the bs Hoopy is blathering about with a critical mind? Are you still playing the game? I'm just about ready to slit my own throat* and give you all up as a pruney waste of my time.
Bed time for me. Some one else do the heavy lifting for awhile.
*just call me Dibbler.
|
|
|
Post by sinjin on Jan 21, 2009 4:07:18 GMT -5
The hell with it, I'm not going to besmirch my vote.
unvote sinjin
|
|
|
Post by Høøpy Frøød on Jan 21, 2009 7:50:25 GMT -5
My case against you is: I think there are two scum left. Yesterday the choices were me, Cookies and Mr. Blockey. I was sure the two scum were Cookies and Mr. Blockey. Given that Mr. Blockey turned up town and that I know I am not scum I had to look for who else could be the second scum. The only other candidates were KidV and YOU. And what you cite here is a perfectly reasonable and rational reason to vote for me. If you had just left it at that, there's not much I can impugn there. As I said, if people want to lynch me toDay to get information, I'm not opposed to it. I don't think it's the best play, but it not a bad play. But the fact that you had to "call shenanigans" and build up some bogus case against me in order to justify your vote is what I took issue with. Because your case against me is simply wrong, and has the air of someone with perfect knowledge trying to overjustify why they are doing what they are doing.
|
|
|
Post by Idle Thoughts on Jan 21, 2009 9:25:43 GMT -5
Sinjin - 4 votes (Hoopy, Almost Human, Miteymouse, Total Lost)
|
|
|
Post by MiteyMouse on Jan 21, 2009 10:14:43 GMT -5
Hi all....I'm here and trying to wrap my head around all of this. I see the case on Hoopy and if Sinjin flips Town then Hoopy might be a good case for tomorrow. I do however, like my vote on Sinjin right now. The omission of my PM in your PM analysis is still sticking with me and I think that Hoopy had a good explanation of why both his and my PMs had colour (though I didn't think of it before because well, my power sucks...hehehe!)
Speaking of which...before the role switch I tried to change the weather (I asked for earthquakes and a series of aftershocks) and questioned Idle on the WC changes. He has said that that is done so we should be sticking with the current WC until the end of the game...I'm not going to quote the PM for fear of mod kill!
|
|
|
Post by MiteyMouse on Jan 21, 2009 10:33:23 GMT -5
Oh and I'm sorry...I haven't been well and that is why I haven't been posting...I should have mentioned that before.
|
|
Total Ullz
Administrator
You can take the girl out of mafia - but you can't take mafia out of the girl
Posts: 2,029
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Post by Total Ullz on Jan 21, 2009 15:12:38 GMT -5
I would like to hear something from those sitting in the warmth of the "confirmed" hot tub. Do you guys have anything to say at all? Have you read any of the bs Hoopy is blathering about with a critical mind? Are you still playing the game? I'm just about ready to slit my own throat* and give you all up as a pruney waste of my time. Bed time for me. Some one else do the heavy lifting for awhile. *just call me Dibbler. Well - you and Hoopy sure did say a lot since I last read this thread!! I stille think Town might get good info on a lynch of you (sorry) but as I read I get more and more convinced that where you're Town or Scum the lynch on you will not reveal anything on Hoopy. Even if you're scum - we still don't know if this Day was gutsy play by the last two scum... just saying! At the moment I really don't trust anyone but me and before we know more about the alignment of Hoopy I don't think we should hammer-kill KidV. For now - I'm fine wth my vote on you for narrowing the Hoopy-claimed vanilla pool.
|
|
Gir!
FGM
EVIL Demon Goddess Mod
What? Kat is sweet and innocent!
Posts: 691
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Post by Gir! on Jan 21, 2009 19:25:13 GMT -5
At this point, I'm thinking it might be best to lynch sinjin toDay, and Hoopy toMorrow, after that:
Scenario A) If Hoopy's Town and his investigation of Cookies comes up scum, lynch Cookies the next Day. Scenario B) If Hoopy's Town and his investigation of Cookies comes up Town, discuss lynching KidV. Scenario C) If Hoopy is scum, throw all investigation results out the window and jump out after them. Scenario D) If Hoopy is Nightkilled, WIFOM our heads off about which unconfirmed killed him.
The reason I'd advocate the sinjin first, Hoopy second order, is because if Hoopy is Town, getting an investigation in on Cookies will help us out, especially if he gets a scum result, whereas if sinjin is Town, she doesn't have an ability to give us an edge.
In that eventuality, I would like to see sinjin's opinion on who Hoopy's scumbuddy might be. I've gone through your posts today and don't see that you've suggested anyone, and I'd like to see your speculations on that.
|
|
|
Post by Høøpy Frøød on Jan 21, 2009 20:42:38 GMT -5
Scenario B) If Hoopy's Town and his investigation of Cookies comes up Town, discuss lynching KidV. Just to throw something out, if this is the case, and then KidV comes up as Mason, and the game is still going, we should consider the possibility that Idle gave us a backup Godfather, much like Batman had. In which case, we will know at that point that there has only been one scum remaining since Rugger bit it. And that scum is fairly well hidden. And if this case does come out, I would say that qualifies as entering into gastardness. In such a case, MiteyMouse is probably the only one among you mechanically confirmed, since I confirmed her while DBI was still alive, and it would be full-out gastard for Idle to actually have had two townie-detecting scum active at the same time. I gotta say if this ends up being the case I think I'll be glad to be dead.
|
|
|
Post by KidVermicious on Jan 22, 2009 0:28:51 GMT -5
If Cookies and Hoopy both come back Town, I'll agree that I'm the next logical target. I will, of course, fight that with everything I've got, because I know I'm aligned with Town, and my lynch will hurt us. Just sayin...
|
|
Total Ullz
Administrator
You can take the girl out of mafia - but you can't take mafia out of the girl
Posts: 2,029
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Post by Total Ullz on Jan 22, 2009 3:42:34 GMT -5
In that eventuality, I would like to see sinjin's opinion on who Hoopy's scumbuddy might be. I've gone through your posts today and don't see that you've suggested anyone, and I'd like to see your speculations on that. I believe that would be me - Sinjin seems to think that because I was the last to be investigated by Hoopy I might be scum... I'm not really sure why Vote SinjinIf she does turn out to be scum I think we should lynch Hoopy toMorrow. And just a thought - why don't we make it so KidV doesn't hammer but we get enough votes to end toMorrow. Then we might be one more uncomfirmed down?? Note to town: After my second mislynch and Hoopy's subsequent lynch take a look at the Hoopy/ totallost connection and the second paragraph above and consider her for the lylo on Day 10. Recall that she was Hoopy's latest investigation.
|
|
|
Post by sinjin on Jan 22, 2009 6:02:12 GMT -5
Already planning your defense Hoopy?
Yes, Kat, I would go with totallost as Hoopy's scum buddy. I have been suspicious of her all game, but mainly because of her silly little plan to get rid of all the "unconfirmed" in two lynches by unhammering KidV. Hoopy jumped right on that one without for a moment considering that it gets town to lylo one Day sooner. What kind of a player does that? Scum getting a bit over anxious for the win, perhaps?
vote Hoopy
|
|
Total Ullz
Administrator
You can take the girl out of mafia - but you can't take mafia out of the girl
Posts: 2,029
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Post by Total Ullz on Jan 22, 2009 6:47:48 GMT -5
Already planning your defense Hoopy? Yes, Kat, I would go with totallost as Hoopy's scum buddy. I have been suspicious of her all game, but mainly because of her silly little plan to get rid of all the "unconfirmed" in two lynches by unhammering KidV. Hoopy jumped right on that one without for a moment considering that it gets town to lylo one Day sooner. What kind of a player does that? Scum getting a bit over anxious for the win, perhaps? vote HoopyYou have been after me most of the game - but at least before you seemed to back it up with something solid. I might come up with silly little plans - like telling everyone I was scum in the castle and together with MiteyM giving town the choice who to NK. Yes - if was a mis-kill of MisterB but we did learn something from it. For now I think the best plan is to take un-comfirmed out - but if anyone has a better idea I might be up for a changed of plans.
|
|
|
Post by Høøpy Frøød on Jan 22, 2009 7:34:45 GMT -5
Already planning your defense Hoopy? What defense? I'll already be dead by then. As I said, I'm investigating cookies tonight, and if she comes up town or I don't get a read, I'll be the first to vote for myself. And even if you think I wouldn't, everyone else has pretty much decided lynching me is a wise plan anyway. (And it is.) So it's not a defense. It's throwing out possibilities that I won't be able to throw out once I'm dead.
|
|
|
Post by Idle Thoughts on Jan 22, 2009 9:00:37 GMT -5
Three hours left.
|
|
|
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Jan 22, 2009 11:05:25 GMT -5
Vote sinjin[/color]
This has been a very long day...
|
|
|
Post by KidVermicious on Jan 22, 2009 11:56:55 GMT -5
*taps fingers on desk impatiently*
|
|