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Post by ryjae on Apr 2, 2008 8:02:54 GMT -5
Can someone with a good logical explanation explain why Hal would have a list and be with us? By that I mean I seen a lot of why it wouldn't make sense. I would like to see the other side. Being honest the list to me was meh it didn't seem real weird until others started explaining it. But it struck enough of you as odd to both pick at it and vote on him. Before I get to far into it, I'd like some mafia pros, if any of you disagree, to say what bonus this list would give the town. In my last post I said about untouchables, by that I mean there are players who haven't raised as much as an eyebrow. By my guesstimate about half of us have said something that got tore into. By doing so we have needed to expose ourselves even more. So my goal today is go back through all claims from full disclosures to role claims and everything in between. I want to see if there is any link to the people "pushing" and causing these claims.
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Post by ryjae on Apr 2, 2008 8:05:04 GMT -5
Ack well a couple more things, well more like questions.
Probably stupid questions Part 1: Scum wouldn't care about are roles would they? Just our abilities right? Do serial killers always play by themselves or is it possible for them to be in a team in mafia?
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Post by sinjin on Apr 2, 2008 8:33:43 GMT -5
Hey Sinjin, to which funk are you referring? Was there other posts? I can't explain them if I don't know what you are talking about. From yesterDay: sinjin: Quote brewha: sinjin: Quote brewha: sinjin: Quote brewha: sinjin: You did respond to my post with this, but I fear the discussion got lost in the Cat, atarus, Hoopy hoopla. Quote brewha:
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Post by brewha on Apr 2, 2008 8:47:25 GMT -5
Ok, I see how those posts were a bit disjointed. Let me try to explain what I was trying to get across. If CIAS did not have to kill every night (still assuming he was a pro town vig), his attack on you meant that one of you two should die. Either CIAS should die for attacking you based on flimsy evidence. Or you should die because CIAS was on our side and had some solid evidence on you that he wasn't sharing. Now that we know the full truth, CIAS is the one who should be (and thankfully is) dead. And, Sinjin, I never did confuse you with CIAS. I did put your name where his should have been once in that post. But, I meant CIAS not you. Don't you know you're supposed to read what I meant to write - not what I actually wrote! I will try to keep up with all the posts, but this job pays me money, which gets me internet, which allows me to play these silly games. So, first and foremost, I have to keep up with work and read this game when I get a bit of free time.
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Post by Hal Briston on Apr 2, 2008 9:42:38 GMT -5
You're fricking killing me, story...basing votes on that list is ludicrous. It's simply information -- it's there for us to either try and find a use for it, or to ignore it. If you'd like to ignore it, then go right ahead. But it's getting damn frustrating that, after always being the biggest proponent of information helping the town, you're suddenly calling town possessing information scummy.
You don't know the reason we have it? TFB. But this obsession you've had with it's simple existence is frustratingly scummy*.
*In that you're acting scummier than I've ever seen you act, meaning you're probably town.
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Post by ryjae on Apr 2, 2008 9:49:37 GMT -5
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Post by storyteller0910 on Apr 2, 2008 9:53:11 GMT -5
You're fricking killing me, story...basing votes on that list is ludicrous. It's simply information -- it's there for us to either try and find a use for it, or to ignore it. If you'd like to ignore it, then go right ahead. But it's getting damn frustrating that, after always being the biggest proponent of information helping the town, you're suddenly calling town possessing information scummy. You don't know the reason we have it? TFB. But this obsession you've had with it's simple existence is frustratingly scummy*. *In that you're acting scummier than I've ever seen you act, meaning you're probably town. We both know perfectly well that I am not voting for you because you have information. I am voting for you because I believe that you are lying. If I accepted that you had the list and it was as you say it is, then of course I wouldn't be suspicious of you or voting for you (at least, not for this reason). But I don't. I think you're lying, because your story makes no sense. And all the handwaving in the world doesn't change that. Look, if I'm wrong, and you really do have an ability that is literally useless, coupled with a restriction that is purely semantic, then at that point, I will concede that the game in which we're playing makes no sense, that trying to solves the logic puzzles with which we're presented is fruitless. Until then, I will try to do so.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Apr 2, 2008 10:11:34 GMT -5
Story...
How do you reconcile what NAF has testified in regards to trying to confirm whether or not Hal actually does indeed have a list? Are you dismissing it outright? Do you think the masons have been somehow duped or lulled into a false sense of security in the existence of Hal's list? Do you think that NAF, Mole, and myself are somehow complicit in Hal's list ruse?
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Post by Holy Moley! on Apr 2, 2008 10:19:16 GMT -5
You're fricking killing me, story...basing votes on that list is ludicrous. It's simply information -- it's there for us to either try and find a use for it, or to ignore it. If you'd like to ignore it, then go right ahead. But it's getting damn frustrating that, after always being the biggest proponent of information helping the town, you're suddenly calling town possessing information scummy. You don't know the reason we have it? TFB. But this obsession you've had with it's simple existence is frustratingly scummy*. *In that you're acting scummier than I've ever seen you act, meaning you're probably town. For the record, my vote for you has nothing whatsoever to do with the claimed "list" and everything to do with my analysis of Kat's vote-out. Several people come out of that looking like possible partners of Kat, yourself included; none of the others have votes on them already; you do. Sorry to make you the sacrificial lamb, but I don't want to waste a third vote on someone that nobody else is going to vote for, after I was the only person to vote Atarus and then couldn't change my vote in time when it was on TDPatriots.
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Post by Holy Moley! on Apr 2, 2008 10:20:01 GMT -5
Story... How do you reconcile what NAF has testified in regards to trying to confirm whether or not Hal actually does indeed have a list? Are you dismissing it outright? Do you think the masons have been somehow duped or lulled into a false sense of security in the existence of Hal's list? Do you think that NAF, Mole, and myself are somehow complicit in Hal's list ruse? Wait, could you link me to that post, I must have missed it?
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Post by storyteller0910 on Apr 2, 2008 10:21:04 GMT -5
Story... How do you reconcile what NAF has testified in regards to trying to confirm whether or not Hal actually does indeed have a list? Are you dismissing it outright? Do you think the masons have been somehow duped or lulled into a false sense of security in the existence of Hal's list? Do you think that NAF, Mole, and myself are somehow complicit in Hal's list ruse? Well, there are obviously any number of options. Hal might indeed have a list - a list of all the pro-Town role names. It's possible all of the scum have such a list, as it would be useful for them to have. In such a case, the scum would not have needed to be provided with "false" aliases of their own, as such, because they'd already know which names were safe to claim. I believe it is possible that Hal does, indeed, have some sort of list of names. That, in and of itself, is not so unbelievable. What I don't believe is that: (1) He is restricted from "reading off" his list of names (a pointless restriction, and one that conveniently keeps us from testing his claim in the easiest way possible). (2) There are 36 names on the list, thus completely obviating its usefulness.
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Post by NAF1138 on Apr 2, 2008 10:22:13 GMT -5
NAF, what do you think of sinjin's point 2 above? Like I said earlier, I think he would have had to make an extreamly lucky guess if he doesn't have an actual list. We masons aren't named after a particularly well known group in the Batman cannon, and there are a few other groups that come to mind that would have been my first choice if I was going to make a wild guess as to who the masons were. He either has a list or he was given the names of the masons so as to prevent being outed by that sort of questioning. Actually having a list makes more sense to me. What I don't know is why he would have the list. I do feel like we aren't getting the full story from him.
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Post by Hawkmod on Apr 2, 2008 10:22:58 GMT -5
Story... How do you reconcile what NAF has testified in regards to trying to confirm whether or not Hal actually does indeed have a list? Are you dismissing it outright? Do you think the masons have been somehow duped or lulled into a false sense of security in the existence of Hal's list? Do you think that NAF, Mole, and myself are somehow complicit in Hal's list ruse? Not to speak for Story, but at least for me, I don't doubt that Hal has the list he claims. Rather the question is why would a baddie have that list?
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Post by NAF1138 on Apr 2, 2008 10:31:08 GMT -5
Story... How do you reconcile what NAF has testified in regards to trying to confirm whether or not Hal actually does indeed have a list? Are you dismissing it outright? Do you think the masons have been somehow duped or lulled into a false sense of security in the existence of Hal's list? Do you think that NAF, Mole, and myself are somehow complicit in Hal's list ruse? Not to speak for Story, but at least for me, I don't doubt that Hal has the list he claims. Rather the question is why would a baddie have that list? Well that is a totally different question, and one I don't have the answer to. It is completely possible that Hal has a list and is a Do Gooder of a PFK. But I don't think the presense of the list is in and of itself enough for a vote on Hal. Mole would you represent your case against Hal sans the list? I didn't quite follow it.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Apr 2, 2008 10:32:18 GMT -5
OK, I want to do another summary post, outlining all the claims and information we have to date, but first, I do have a question:
Why, precisely, has zuma (now Blaster Master) so completely escaped serious scrutiny? (heh. Sorry, Blaster. Here we go again, though through no fault of your own, obviously).
Just to review, in two game Days, zuma:
- Expressed a frustrated "I'm never going to win" vibe, in spite of the fact that we have seen two anti-Town deaths versus only two pro-Town deaths, which makes little sense from the standpoint of a pro-Town player.
- Done several wildly inconsistent things, such as castigate Hoopy Frood for name-claiming under minimal pressure and then immediately thereafter name-claiming himself under no pressure.
- Evidently flat out lied about having a post restriction.
- Claimed to be Batman.
I know it seems a bit overobvious, but should we be looking at this a little more carefully?
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Santo Rugger
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Post by Santo Rugger on Apr 2, 2008 10:34:29 GMT -5
I'm not sure... zuma tends to act... strange in game sometiems, for lack of a better word.
I think BlaM has to have some sort of explanation he's withholding, though. As weird as it sounds, it seems kinda like a null tell to me.
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Post by Hal Briston on Apr 2, 2008 10:34:56 GMT -5
Ok, fine...there is more to this list. It does has a pro-town function. If it comes down to saving my ass, then naturally I'll be forced to lay it all out. Since doing so would be very much to the detriment of town, I'm going to avoid it as long as possible.
Yes, story, there is a logical reason for it. Continuing to hammer away at it hurts town. (Yes, I know, "But you're lying, so I'll keep pushing...")
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Post by storyteller0910 on Apr 2, 2008 10:38:35 GMT -5
I'm not sure... zuma tends to act... strange in game sometiems, for lack of a better word. I think BlaM has to have some sort of explanation he's withholding, though. As weird as it sounds, it seems kinda like a null tell to me. I know. But if the game ends at whatever point and it turns out that zuma was Batman, won't you kind of want to wear a Dunce cap for a year?
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Santo Rugger
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Post by Santo Rugger on Apr 2, 2008 10:39:55 GMT -5
I'm not sure... zuma tends to act... strange in game sometiems, for lack of a better word. I think BlaM has to have some sort of explanation he's withholding, though. As weird as it sounds, it seems kinda like a null tell to me. I know. But if the game ends at whatever point and it turns out that zuma was Batman, won't you kind of want to wear a Dunce cap for a year? Probably longer than that. Diomedes explicitly said he wasn't, though. He didn't say he wasn't scum, but he did say he wasn't Batman.
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Post by Hal Briston on Apr 2, 2008 10:41:03 GMT -5
But if the game ends at whatever point and it turns out that zuma was Batman, won't you kind of want to wear a Dunce cap for a year? Under normal circumstances, his claim would be worth a vote just to make sure -- but do we disregard Dio flat-out telling us that zuma wasn't Batman?
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Post by brewha on Apr 2, 2008 10:42:57 GMT -5
OK, I want to do another summary post, outlining all the claims and information we have to date, but first, I do have a question: Why, precisely, has zuma (now Blaster Master) so completely escaped serious scrutiny? (heh. Sorry, Blaster. Here we go again, though through no fault of your own, obviously). Just to review, in two game Days, zuma: - Expressed a frustrated "I'm never going to win" vibe, in spite of the fact that we have seen two anti-Town deaths versus only two pro-Town deaths, which makes little sense from the standpoint of a pro-Town player. - Done several wildly inconsistent things, such as castigate Hoopy Frood for name-claiming under minimal pressure and then immediately thereafter name-claiming himself under no pressure. - Evidently flat out lied about having a post restriction. - Claimed to be Batman. I know it seems a bit overobvious, but should we be looking at this a little more carefully? I can agree with this. When Zuma claimed, there was something I didn't like about it. I asked him clarify and he didn't respond. Sorry to put you in this position BlaM, but can you post your role PM? Although Zuma already posted it, I have a feeling it was made up or parts were omitted. So, could you post the whole thing ?- except for your actual powers of course.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Apr 2, 2008 10:42:59 GMT -5
Yes, story, there is a logical reason for it. Continuing to hammer away at it hurts town. (Yes, I know, "But you're lying, so I'll keep pushing...")You know what? The following assumes that you are telling the truth. I am by no means certain of this, but let's go with it for a minute. If there is information that makes your claim make sense, THEN I DON'T HAVE IT. No one does, except you. If there is information that makes your claim make sense, then you lied or at best prevaricated when I called you on this in the first place, with all that "why assume everything has to make sense bullshit?" And most importantly, with regard to your last sentence: Why the hell should I stop pushing? Because you say so? What kind of game would that make? BOB: "Oh, I think so-and-so is scum, for reasons X, Y, and Z." SO-AND-SO SCUMMYPANTS: "Well, I'm not. And you should stop talking about me, because I said so. And you'll hurt the Town if you don't." BOB: "Oh! Hurt the town! Well... no scum would ever use that argument. I guess you're right. I'll back off." Fuck that. If you want to be believed, you have to be believ able. Give me one good reason why you should be exempt from scrutiny, on nothing but your say so.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Apr 2, 2008 10:43:46 GMT -5
But if the game ends at whatever point and it turns out that zuma was Batman, won't you kind of want to wear a Dunce cap for a year? Under normal circumstances, his claim would be worth a vote just to make sure -- but do we disregard Dio flat-out telling us that zuma wasn't Batman? Did Dio say that? I think I missed it.
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Darth Sensitive
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Post by Darth Sensitive on Apr 2, 2008 10:44:52 GMT -5
Well - they are pretty Gastardy mods.
But zuma went pretty batshit (heh) insane all over the place. I don't know what's up. The mods aren't being forward in general about the game, but I can't fathom them doing something so evil as to make him as mad as he was at them. I'm calling it a null tell for now.
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Post by Hawkmod on Apr 2, 2008 10:44:55 GMT -5
But I don't think the presense of the list is in and of itself enough for a vote on Hal. I agree, which is why I haven't voted for him.
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Post by Hawkmod on Apr 2, 2008 10:47:02 GMT -5
I'd planned on making the announcement that zuma had been replaced by Blaster Master this morning. Unfortunately, I've only just been able to log onto the boards (due to the outages that have been mentioned above). All of ProBoards seemed to be having problems. I should add that zuma was not replaced because he claimed to be Batman (he's not), nor because he violated his post restriction (which he didn't have), nor because he told the mods to fuck themselves (which they haven't done. Or, at least, I haven't). He was replaced for deleting his account during the end of a Day. Please do not delete your account ,even if you have intentions of setting it back up: during the time it's deleted, the mods can't contact you, and other players can't search your posts. Dio's post
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Post by storyteller0910 on Apr 2, 2008 10:51:22 GMT -5
I'd planned on making the announcement that zuma had been replaced by Blaster Master this morning. Unfortunately, I've only just been able to log onto the boards (due to the outages that have been mentioned above). All of ProBoards seemed to be having problems. I should add that zuma was not replaced because he claimed to be Batman (he's not), nor because he violated his post restriction (which he didn't have), nor because he told the mods to fuck themselves (which they haven't done. Or, at least, I haven't). He was replaced for deleting his account during the end of a Day. Please do not delete your account ,even if you have intentions of setting it back up: during the time it's deleted, the mods can't contact you, and other players can't search your posts. Dio's post Noted. The plot, as they say, thickens.
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Post by Darth Sensitive on Apr 2, 2008 10:51:30 GMT -5
Ack well a couple more things, well more like questions. Probably stupid questions Part 1: Scum wouldn't care about are roles would they? Just our abilities right? Do serial killers always play by themselves or is it possible for them to be in a team in mafia? Possibly dumb answers: The only reason I can see for scum caring about names would be to make guesses about powers. I would have assumed Freeze to be a roleblocker, and Two Face to have a 50 50 chance of someone dying vs . And I've never seen multiple SKs on a team, but as of this instant, that's the assumption I'm on.
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Post by Hal Briston on Apr 2, 2008 11:03:55 GMT -5
Fuck that. If you want to be believed, you have to be believ able. Give me one good reason why you should be exempt from scrutiny, on nothing but your say so. Bingo...the only way to do so is to reveal everything, which hurts town. We both know that's how this works. So here's how we're going to play this out: I'm going to do what I know is the pro-town move -- I'm going keep my mouth shut about the issue until keeping my mouth shut becomes an anti-town move (read: when you've duped enough people into voting for me). At that point I reveal what I know, I lose my effectiveness, and that we all go "Oh, gee...guess he was telling the truth after all. But hey, at least we know that now". One other thing -- I'm of the opinion that scum know exactly what the deal is with this list (or at least have a good idea of how it can hurt them). Because of this, I'm pretty damn sure scum will be all over this bandwagon you're so desperate to get rolling. Something to keep an eye on if you pull off my lynch.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Apr 2, 2008 11:13:10 GMT -5
Let me ask again, Hal, more directly this time.
What do you think would be a reasonable way to approach another player who has made what appear to be unreasonable claims?
If you were suspicious of someone because their story was full of holes, would you or would you not stop asking questions about it because they told you to?
If you would, how would you recommend catching scum?
If you would not, then why should I stop asking questions about you now?
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