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[NAF1138]

jsexton said:

Ideal play for scum during the day is to forget who your teammates are. Clear your mind, and be town. If you see a slip, you pounce, regardless of who makes it. Don't try to get tricky until lategame, where the long-term benefits matter less than short-term mislynches.

But the question, to me, is...would you notice the slip if you didn't know they were scum.

To me, I don't think anyone who wasn't scum would have seen that post cookies made.

[Gir!]

sachertorte said:

I'm finding the whole Blaster Master situation interesting. While I enjoyed his analysis, I'm puzzled as to how he can draw conclusions from it without making assumptions about the relative value of information versus people numbers. Quite frankly, he loses me halfway though. Either he isn't showing all of his thoughts clearly or he's made some assumptions that I'm not aware of.

He loses me about halfway through the second sentence. If BlaM were scum, I'd be suspicious he was trying to hide coded messages to his teammates in the middle of the math stuff. ;D

[NAF1138]

What do you guys think that modkilling tragic would do to the game balance at this point. If we go that route do you think we need to place a restriction on the scum also?

[NAF1138]

Who else thinks that artarus is WAY overplaying his hand as the cop?

That eyes on you post would be enough for me to kill him if I were scum.

[JSexton]

naf1138 said:

What do you guys think that modkilling tragic would do to the game balance at this point. If we go that route do you think we need to place a restriction on the scum also?

Ugh. If I'm forced to modkill, I generally have it end the day. That ensures that no ones uses modkills as a second lynch.

But if it happens, it happens. You can't impose additional restrictions on the scum, as there's no way to balance it. I'd wait a little longer for a replacement, myself.

In fact, let me see if I can rustle one up for you.

[JSexton]

Right, then. Got a replacement for you, if you want. Expect a pm from a certain Uncle Istvun shortly, NAF.

[sachertorte]

naf1138 said:

Who else thinks that artarus is WAY overplaying his hand as the cop?

That eyes on you post would be enough for me to kill him if I were scum.

But his eye on you post wasn't against someone he investigated is it? I thought he knows Captain Klutz is scum, but no one else.

Although, scum don't know this so maybe they will kill him for that. But then maybe town will get WTF for the non-breadcrumb breadcrumb.

[NAF1138]

sachertorte said:

naf1138 said:

Who else thinks that artarus is WAY overplaying his hand as the cop?

That eyes on you post would be enough for me to kill him if I were scum.

But his eye on you post wasn't against someone he investigated is it? I thought he knows Captain Klutz is scum, but no one else.

Although, scum don't know this so maybe they will kill him for that. But then maybe town will get WTF for the non-breadcrumb breadcrumb.

Yeah, it's Captin Klutz. But he is basically yelling, I am the cop and I am going to investigate you toNight. Like I said, I would kill him based on that post if I were playing as scum.

[sachertorte]

I can see taking his post in that fashion, but I can also see taking his post as a joke. It would be very funny if atarus gets it tonight and have yet another <3 Day investigative role survival statistic.

[NAF1138]

jsexton said:

Right, then. Got a replacement for you, if you want. Expect a pm from a certain Uncle Istvun shortly, NAF.

Thanks! He is in and making waves already. I like this guy. ;D

[Greedy Smurf]

Couple of comments,

I think Atarus is in big trouble, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he was killed by the scum toNight.

If for no other reason than his otherwise innocent statement of :

If Kaylee shows up dead at some point and she's scum? That's a better case for putting the noose around Roosh's neck next. But for now, I'd back off and consider other options. That's my opinion.

And while I don't know Ui, he is certainly making waves. If I was still in the game his posting style would be rubbing me the wrong way.

[NAF1138]

greedysmurf said:

Couple of comments,

I think Atarus is in big trouble, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he was killed by the scum toNight.

If for no other reason than his otherwise innocent statement of :

If Kaylee shows up dead at some point and she's scum? That's a better case for putting the noose around Roosh's neck next. But for now, I'd back off and consider other options. That's my opinion.

And while I don't know Ui, he is certainly making waves. If I was still in the game his posting style would be rubbing me the wrong way.

Really? I love the way he is shaking things up. Hard to say how I would react to it in game, but as a mod I think he is just what the game needed. People were letting the closed set up overtake them, he is getting the game back on track as a game.

[JSexton]

naf1138 said:

greedysmurf said:

Couple of comments,

I think Atarus is in big trouble, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he was killed by the scum toNight.

If for no other reason than his otherwise innocent statement of :

If Kaylee shows up dead at some point and she's scum? That's a better case for putting the noose around Roosh's neck next. But for now, I'd back off and consider other options. That's my opinion.

And while I don't know Ui, he is certainly making waves. If I was still in the game his posting style would be rubbing me the wrong way.

Really? I love the way he is shaking things up. Hard to say how I would react to it in game, but as a mod I think he is just what the game needed. People were letting the closed set up overtake them, he is getting the game back on track as a game.

Agreed. UI is relatively new, but he played a bunch of games in shot order, and showed improvement every single time. I have a ton of respect for him. He's wrong about Roosh, of course, but that's okay. He's getting the actual scum to drop some tells that town should pick up on later, and that's really the point of the first couple days.

[Gir!]

Yes, I love the way UI is playing. I think all the vanilla townies should follow his lead and start being more aggressive. I hope he plays more games with us. I'd love to play (as a player) a game with him.

[sachertorte]

greedysmurf said:

And while I don't know Ui, he is certainly making waves. If I was still in the game his posting style would be rubbing me the wrong way.

I was agreeing with this, but then the town got all snippy and rude to him too. He's basically derailed the town from stringing up Cookies and/or WTF. I think this Day could be very bad for the town.

[sachertorte]

What I find funny is ui rejects both the idea that the crew could be town aligned and refuses to believe that recruitment could be an option. He's right in this case, but he neglects the possibility that recruitment negates the 'all crew are town aligned' theory. I also believe he's bringing much baggage to the game and conflating cult with scum+recruitment option, which are different things, which I don't think he realizes.

[NAF1138]

sachertorte said:

What I find funny is ui rejects both the idea that the crew could be town aligned and refuses to believe that recruitment could be an option. He's right in this case, but he neglects the possibility that recruitment negates the 'all crew are town aligned' theory. I also believe he's bringing much baggage to the game and conflating cult with scum+recruitment option, which are different things, which I don't think he realizes.

He is right about a lot of things. The big problem he has is he didn't even make an attempt to figure out how we play before jumping in and shaking things up. I gave him the option of waiting until the 1st to sub in, but he didn't seem to want to wait.

Unfortunately for the town, they are probably going to just ignore him based on his posting style. If they actually stopped being incensed for a couple of minutes and listened to what he had to say I think he has a strategy that can get the town a win.

But right now WTF is just going to claim Zoe at the last minute and maybe Cookies will get lynched instead, but drainbead and Pygmy are going to get a free pass for a long while no matter which of the other two get lynched. Even worse the town might not lynch today.

[Greedy Smurf]

To clarify what I meant about Ui.

I get the feeling that he has jumped in, he has certain ideas about what is what in the game, is certain they are right and will hear no opposition or counter-arguments to it. and by the way everyone else is wrong, and aren't even playing the game properly!

If someone does have the temerity to disagree, he is very agressive in his counter attack, I haven't caught up properly since Friday, but I saw one post this morning where WTF (I think?) had disagreed, and Ui's response basically was "you're going to die for that"!

That is the sign of a player who is bad for the town, over-aggressive and won't listen to alternative opnions. It may just be because he's been dunked in the middle? who knows. But that is what I meant about him rubbing me the wrong way if I was still in the game.

[NAF1138]

I get that Greedy. I agree that his super agressive play probably won't help the town too much right now. But his ideas are good ones. He needs to find ways to get the town to listen to him though.

And WTF just roleclaimed. Scum were smart to compose credible roleclaims for everyone last night. WTFs claim is very solid sounding.

[Greedy Smurf]

naf1138 said:

But his ideas are good ones.

I don't dispute that, he has picked up very well on the whole "not all crew is town", the trouble is his posting style has gotten a fair few peoples noses out of joint, and consequently they are not, and probably will not listen to him. I wouldn't be surprised if he finds himself going out the airlock in the not very distant future.

While I haven't got a lot of experience in mafia games I get the sense that the Dope games are reasonably mild mannered and civilised by usual standards and obviously Ui isn't accustomed to that.

I'll have to jump over and check out the claim. It'll be interesting to see what happens with it.

[NAF1138]

Assuming you are telling the truth,I really question why you would protect me.
To anyone who has a protecting role...I am VERY expendable and scum would be foolish to attack me at Night.Don't waste your protects on me.

Mad said this. But I wonder why he thinks it's true. He is the only 100% no questions confirmed town. Doesn't the town need all the confirmeds it can get in endgame?

[NAF1138]

Storyteller post #643

I don't believe this is true on the face of it. As I mentioned, the Sekham game had exactly nine pro-town roles confirmable by role name only (The Apprentice, the Disciple, the Oracle, the Priest, the Crusader, and four Monks), along with one additional pro-town role not confirmable by name alone (The Martyr) and one semi-pro-town role confirmable by name alone (The Alchemist). Substitute Mal, Inara, Wash, Zoe, Simon, Jayne, Book, River, and Kaylee for "Apprentice," "Disciple," "Oracle," "Priest," "Crusader," "Monk1," "Monk2," "Monk3," and "Monk4," variously, and substitute "Mr. Universe" for "The Martyr" and "The Operative" for "The Alchemist" and you have a perfectly workable game. The Sekham game was obviously not broken - it came down to the last second, and almost went to the scum. So even if every last one of the nine Serenity players are pro-crew, the game is not necessarily broken.

Sekham was a broken game (sorry BlaM). If the town had mass claimed at any time they would have won almost immediatly. The only thing that saved us and kept us going till endgame was the towns inability to cooperate.

[diggitcamara]

naf1138 said:

Assuming you are telling the truth,I really question why you would protect me.
To anyone who has a protecting role...I am VERY expendable and scum would be foolish to attack me at Night.Don't waste your protects on me.

Mad said this. But I wonder why he thinks it's true. He is the only 100% no questions confirmed town. Doesn't the town need all the confirmeds it can get in endgame?

Well, I think right now he's right, he's expendable. And, like I said during the Crazytown game, I think there's a greater chance of scum leaving a single confirmed Mason alone simply because that's a player who'll probably be protected, most of the time. Why waste a chance to kill?

[sachertorte]

naf1138 said:

Sekham was a broken game (sorry BlaM). If the town had mass claimed at any time they would have won almost immediatly. The only thing that saved us and kept us going till endgame was the towns inability to cooperate.

I don't think you can discount coordination versus non-coordination in evaluating game balance. The fact that scum can cooperate and town can't is part of the game and thus part of the balance. Plus there was recruitment.

[NAF1138]

sachertorte said:

naf1138 said:

Sekham was a broken game (sorry BlaM). If the town had mass claimed at any time they would have won almost immediatly. The only thing that saved us and kept us going till endgame was the towns inability to cooperate.

I don't think you can discount coordination versus non-coordination in evaluating game balance. The fact that scum can cooperate and town can't is part of the game and thus part of the balance. Plus there was recruitment.

This it true. And the town played badly for most of the game, and scum played well for most of the game. Then we made one unplanned REALLY bad blunder and lost. JSexton said something about if town mislynches more then 3 times they deserve to lose. Town mislynched 7 times in Sekham and still won. The deck was heavily stacked against the cult simply because of the number of confirmables.

(again, when you read this BlaM, I think you did a great job with the game. I think that kind of implicit masonry was just something that no one had considered up until that point.)

[sachertorte]

On that point I would agree. Scum really should have won that game, but the blunder and mispost messed everything up (and made the game drag on unnecessarily.) However, 3 mislynches quoted before was for a 20 person game with multiple night deaths. With 30 in M5, the number of permissible mislynches would need to be more like 5. On top of that the Crusader died early and the Psychopath never got activated. That made the game run long, and long game == more mislynches.

[NAF1138]

Finally woke up enough to remember how to quote the way I want to:

ui said:

storyteller0910 said:

You know, if you survive this - and it's not looking good, not least because you keep hammering on the Roosh stuff instead of addressing the points people are making - and if you actually want to contribute in a positive way, you might consider cutting back on stuff like the above.

Seriously, "fundamental problems in how the game is played here?" Check out the sigs - the town has won all but one of six games 'twixt here and the Dope, so I'd guess that the problems aren't that fundamental. The superiority complex is off-putting, and it makes it harder to listen to what you're saying.

The game is played very differently here, and it clashes with pretty much everything I know about the game.

JSexton, you would know more then me, how true is this? And also, how is this true?

The only other online mafia site that I have seen was mafiascum.net. I know our version is different, but not SO different from theirs.

I was introduced to mafia as a live action game (a theater game actually, but that is neither here nor there) so the online version has always been radically different from what I know.

Also how do you think we would do if we suddenly all started playing other places like mafiascum, or Misetings?

[ui]

Well, I turned out to be pretty much completely wrong there. I think that I'm going to need to wait and see how this game turns out.

[NAF1138]

ui said:

Well, I turned out to be pretty much completely wrong there. I think that I'm going to need to wait and see how this game turns out.

Well not completely. Just about who was scum. You were on the right track, and if the town had lynched Roosh I actually think that all the scum would have ended up giving themselves away.

[ui]

kat said:

Yes, I love the way UI is playing. I think all the vanilla townies should follow his lead and start being more aggressive. I hope he plays more games with us. I'd love to play (as a player) a game with him.

Yeah, I had originally thought about just playing the one game as a favor, but I think that I'll need to at least STRONGLY consider returning.