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Post by CatInASuit on Nov 18, 2011 11:01:02 GMT -5
The lights go up and everyone is herded into a large stockade, a series of single person huts at one end alongside a large and spacious hut and at the other a series of slightly raised platforms spaced apart and each one marked for a single player. You know this will be your new home until you either win or die.
Looking around, you see the high raised fence and the surrounding armed guards keeping a steady eye on you. More unsettling, are the camera crews and lights all shining down and illuminating the area. Every move, every twitch, every word, every action that you make being broadcast to hundreds of thousands of people.
Hi, I'm Rick Rothman and welcome to Wedlock. The contestants are lined up below in the Stockade.
You've seen the intros, you know who they are, and now they have to figure it out.
Who will win this time round.
Now they have to make a choice, the ultimate choice for them, who will be the first.
In five days time, we will return and find out, who exactly that unlucky candidate will be.
Let the game begin...
Day 1 will end at 16:00 GMT on Wed 23rd
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Post by Sister Coyote on Nov 18, 2011 11:29:14 GMT -5
So. Some gastardy in store for us, and we need to plan for anything. Of course, I suppose the question is what falls under the heading "anything."
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Post by guiri on Nov 18, 2011 11:59:26 GMT -5
Does the lynch detonate the lynchee's collar?
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Post by Drain Bead on Nov 18, 2011 12:01:59 GMT -5
I'd guess there's a mad bomber role who can detonate these things around our necks. Fun times.
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Post by sachertorte on Nov 18, 2011 12:06:09 GMT -5
Initial Thoughts: - This game, as described so far, is a much smaller game than the number of players suggest. With the collar pairing, our pool of 24 is actually a pool of 12. A 12 person game is small indeed.
- This leads me to speculate to the possibility of a separation mechanism. It's only speculation, but I would not be surprised to find it crop up. Especially since...
- We should expect a mix of Red-Red, Red-Blue, and Blue-Blue Pairings (Psychopath(s) will probably be paired with Blue, but who knows right?). If the game were all Red-Red and Blue-Blue pairings, then the game would essentially be a 12 person game with pairs playing the same role. The Red-Blue mix is where things would get interesting since, in essence, there exist Blue Players that we must eliminate (barring a separation mechanism).
- If separation is a thing, then separation of Red-Red pairs is extremely bad. Conversely, separation of Blue-Blue pairs would be extremely good. On second thought, I'm going to put separation onto the "probably not a balanced power" table.
- A 12 person game would support 3 scum players. Based on this I would expect a maximum of 3 Red-Red pairs. I find the possibility of exclusively Red-Red pairs to be unlikely, therefore something like: {Red-Red; Red-Red; Red-Blue} or {Red-Red; Red-Red; Red-Blue; Red-Blue} seems more likely to me. Of course this all depends on how CatInASuit views game balance, which I don't have a good feeling for.
- I've also been pondering the Red Team win condition. In the extreme case, where all Red players are paired with a Blue Player, this makes the traditional win condition tenuous for scum. Furthermore, even if Red-Red pairs exist along with Red-Blue pairs, it will still be possible to attain a game state where all Red players are paired with Blue Players. The traditional scum win condition of Red>=Blue becomes problematic as Red attempts to kill off the Blue-Blue pairs while trying to avoid the Blue players they are connected to. If the Red players don't know which Blue players are linked to Red Players, then they could just as easily take out a Red-Blue pair.
- Thus I conclude that either Red Players already know who they are attached to, or there is an in-game mechanism to learn attachments. Pairing information is extremely powerful for scum in this game. If Town has a power to learn this information, I would suggest treading very very carefully with that information. At this time, I see little reason to share that information; the only thing I can think of right now is if we have an out Cop and are about to lynch someone paired with that Cop -- but that is a "clear course of action in the moment" kind of thing.
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Post by deon on Nov 18, 2011 12:47:04 GMT -5
Maybe if people gets separated it detonates the shiny collars?
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Post by Silver Jan on Nov 18, 2011 12:48:45 GMT -5
Initial Thoughts: - This game, as described so far, is a much smaller game than the number of players suggest. With the collar pairing, our pool of 24 is actually a pool of 12. A 12 person game is small indeed. - This leads me to speculate to the possibility of a separation mechanism. It's only speculation, but I would not be surprised to find it crop up. Especially since... - We should expect a mix of Red-Red, Red-Blue, and Blue-Blue Pairings (Psychopath(s) will probably be paired with Blue, but who knows right?). If the game were all Red-Red and Blue-Blue pairings, then the game would essentially be a 12 person game with pairs playing the same role. The Red-Blue mix is where things would get interesting since, in essence, there exist Blue Players that we must eliminate (barring a separation mechanism). - If separation is a thing, then separation of Red-Red pairs is extremely bad. Conversely, separation of Blue-Blue pairs would be extremely good. On second thought, I'm going to put separation onto the "probably not a balanced power" table. - A 12 person game would support 3 scum players. Based on this I would expect a maximum of 3 Red-Red pairs. I find the possibility of exclusively Red-Red pairs to be unlikely, therefore something like: {Red-Red; Red-Red; Red-Blue} or {Red-Red; Red-Red; Red-Blue; Red-Blue} seems more likely to me. Of course this all depends on how CatInASuit views game balance, which I don't have a good feeling for. - I've also been pondering the Red Team win condition. In the extreme case, where all Red players are paired with a Blue Player, this makes the traditional win condition tenuous for scum. Furthermore, even if Red-Red pairs exist along with Red-Blue pairs, it will still be possible to attain a game state where all Red players are paired with Blue Players. The traditional scum win condition of Red>=Blue becomes problematic as Red attempts to kill off the Blue-Blue pairs while trying to avoid the Blue players they are connected to. If the Red players don't know which Blue players are linked to Red Players, then they could just as easily take out a Red-Blue pair. - Thus I conclude that either Red Players already know who they are attached to, or there is an in-game mechanism to learn attachments. Pairing information is extremely powerful for scum in this game. If Town has a power to learn this information, I would suggest treading very very carefully with that information. At this time, I see little reason to share that information; the only thing I can think of right now is if we have an out Cop and are about to lynch someone paired with that Cop -- but that is a "clear course of action in the moment" kind of thing. Huh??? Sorry. vote SachtorteCome on this is page 1 WTF
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Post by storyteller0910 on Nov 18, 2011 12:53:53 GMT -5
Huh??? Sorry. vote SachtorteCome on this is page 1 WTF (Bleached) What the hell? Want to expand on this vote? ----- Responses directly to sach to come in a separate post.
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Post by sachertorte on Nov 18, 2011 12:53:59 GMT -5
Come on this is page 1 WTF What does page one have to do with anything? Would you prefer I talk about the weather and other nonsense? At what point of the game is, um, playing the game appropriate? page 2? page 7? Am I supposed to take you seriously?
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Post by deon on Nov 18, 2011 13:00:05 GMT -5
Vanilla Blue Team PM. Congratulations. You have been randomly chosen as a member of the Blue Team. You have no idea who anybody else is here but you have been fitted with a nice shiny new collar that can explode and remove your head. WinCon: You will win when all the Red Team members have been eliminated. After I read this from the rules thread my first thought was that the RED TEAM did not have collars to begin with. I am also wondering why only the blue team pm is displayed, I would like to see a real red team pm for once LoL, all that I have been shown in my 3 mafia games thus far were a bunch of amended pm's from the scum (red) teams.
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Post by LightFoot on Nov 18, 2011 13:19:44 GMT -5
I'd guess there's a mad bomber role who can detonate these things around our necks. Fun times. I read it that when one of the pair is killed ( lynched/ NK'd / vig'd) their 'other half' dies too.
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Post by sachertorte on Nov 18, 2011 13:23:27 GMT -5
Hmm. I had been thinking that there was a third party psychopath, but re-reading the win condition clearly states only the red team needs to be eliminated. So either the psychopath is also Red or Town doesn't need to eliminate. That actually makes sense since the game is so small. So perhaps there is no third party at all.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Nov 18, 2011 13:29:21 GMT -5
Hmm. I had been thinking that there was a third party psychopath, but re-reading the win condition clearly states only the red team needs to be eliminated. So either the psychopath is also Red or Town doesn't need to eliminate. That actually makes sense since the game is so small. So perhaps there is no third party at all. I've seen nothing in the rules that strongly suggests a third party, and frankly, I think it would be a bitch to balance something like a Serial Killer in a game structured like this. If the links are predominantly Red-Red and Blue-Blue, then a Serial Killer is the ultimate force of swingyness, dramatically increasing the impact of chance on the game. And if the links are predominantly Red-Blue, a Serial Killer becomes so pro-Town that you might as well just make it a Vigilante.
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Post by moodymitchy on Nov 18, 2011 13:30:58 GMT -5
Perhaps the parings were made via Random.org
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Post by storyteller0910 on Nov 18, 2011 13:33:34 GMT -5
Perhaps the parings were made via Random.org That would be horrifying.
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Post by moodymitchy on Nov 18, 2011 13:38:10 GMT -5
Perhaps the parings were made via Random.org That would be horrifying. Just as a possibility, or in respect of balance and stuff....
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Post by sachertorte on Nov 18, 2011 13:39:40 GMT -5
Perhaps the parings were made via Random.org That would be horrifying. I agree. Random does not equal balanced.
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Post by sachertorte on Nov 18, 2011 13:47:36 GMT -5
I've seen nothing in the rules that strongly suggests a third party, and frankly, I think it would be a bitch to balance something like a Serial Killer in a game structured like this. If the links are predominantly Red-Red and Blue-Blue, then a Serial Killer is the ultimate force of swingyness, dramatically increasing the impact of chance on the game. To be fair, that is always the case. In a standard game, SK and Vig are always a source of swing. This I agree with. As for where the idea of a third party psychopath came from, It came from the blurry line between color and rules. CatInASuit said something about man,woman, and psychopath, so that implied something about psychopaths as a game entity. At first, I thought it was town divided up into Red and Blue Teams with psychopaths as scum, but the Night 0 clarification made it clear that Red is scum. That pushed psychopath into 3rd party territory for me. I'll also note that the rules say nothing about the associated pair blowing up when the linked dies... that's also from the color.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Nov 18, 2011 13:48:57 GMT -5
That would be horrifying. Just as a possibility, or in respect of balance and stuff.... I don't think so. The thing is, everything about balancing the game design, right down to the number of Scum and the number and nature of power roles, if any, starts with the nature of the linkages. A game with a lot of Red-Red and Blue-Blue pairings is a fundamentally different game than one in which the pairings are Red-Blue.
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Post by Sister Coyote on Nov 18, 2011 13:50:31 GMT -5
And I thought he was just saying that psychopaths came in both genders, but I realize that's probably my brain being weird.
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Post by gnarlycharlie on Nov 18, 2011 13:50:38 GMT -5
Initial Thoughts: - This game, as described so far, is a much smaller game than the number of players suggest. With the collar pairing, our pool of 24 is actually a pool of 12. A 12 person game is small indeed. - This leads me to speculate to the possibility of a separation mechanism. It's only speculation, but I would not be surprised to find it crop up. Especially since... - We should expect a mix of Red-Red, Red-Blue, and Blue-Blue Pairings (Psychopath(s) will probably be paired with Blue, but who knows right?). If the game were all Red-Red and Blue-Blue pairings, then the game would essentially be a 12 person game with pairs playing the same role. The Red-Blue mix is where things would get interesting since, in essence, there exist Blue Players that we must eliminate (barring a separation mechanism). - If separation is a thing, then separation of Red-Red pairs is extremely bad. Conversely, separation of Blue-Blue pairs would be extremely good. On second thought, I'm going to put separation onto the "probably not a balanced power" table. - A 12 person game would support 3 scum players. Based on this I would expect a maximum of 3 Red-Red pairs. I find the possibility of exclusively Red-Red pairs to be unlikely, therefore something like: {Red-Red; Red-Red; Red-Blue} or {Red-Red; Red-Red; Red-Blue; Red-Blue} seems more likely to me. Of course this all depends on how CatInASuit views game balance, which I don't have a good feeling for. - I've also been pondering the Red Team win condition. In the extreme case, where all Red players are paired with a Blue Player, this makes the traditional win condition tenuous for scum. Furthermore, even if Red-Red pairs exist along with Red-Blue pairs, it will still be possible to attain a game state where all Red players are paired with Blue Players. The traditional scum win condition of Red>=Blue becomes problematic as Red attempts to kill off the Blue-Blue pairs while trying to avoid the Blue players they are connected to. If the Red players don't know which Blue players are linked to Red Players, then they could just as easily take out a Red-Blue pair. - Thus I conclude that either Red Players already know who they are attached to, or there is an in-game mechanism to learn attachments. Pairing information is extremely powerful for scum in this game. If Town has a power to learn this information, I would suggest treading very very carefully with that information. At this time, I see little reason to share that information; the only thing I can think of right now is if we have an out Cop and are about to lynch someone paired with that Cop -- but that is a "clear course of action in the moment" kind of thing. Huh??? Sorry. vote Sachtorte Come on this is page 1 WTF have you been enjoying a nice red again? if we assume that CIAS has put thought into balance, i would agree that it isn't all Blue on Blue and Red on Red. however there is a caveat about gastardness so it's not completely impossible. if that were the case, the swings would be pretty wild. two townies or two scum at the same time would make this a short game.
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Post by moodymitchy on Nov 18, 2011 13:51:38 GMT -5
OK I agree that it's not best for balance but I was just wondering...
IF the RED TEAM don't know who they are paired with then it certainly does make their "off board" (if they have any ) discussion interesting...
Would it only be the lynch that kills both players or do people think the NK would kill connected players as well?
If not then it would leave players not knowing if they are connected to anyone or not..... I'm just thinking out loud here.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Nov 18, 2011 13:57:42 GMT -5
OK, one more post and then I'll ease up and let someone else talk for a few hours; boy, was I amped to start this game! Initial Thoughts: - This game, as described so far, is a much smaller game than the number of players suggest. With the collar pairing, our pool of 24 is actually a pool of 12. A 12 person game is small indeed. - This leads me to speculate to the possibility of a separation mechanism. It's only speculation, but I would not be surprised to find it crop up. Especially since... - We should expect a mix of Red-Red, Red-Blue, and Blue-Blue Pairings (Psychopath(s) will probably be paired with Blue, but who knows right?). If the game were all Red-Red and Blue-Blue pairings, then the game would essentially be a 12 person game with pairs playing the same role. The Red-Blue mix is where things would get interesting since, in essence, there exist Blue Players that we must eliminate (barring a separation mechanism). - If separation is a thing, then separation of Red-Red pairs is extremely bad. Conversely, separation of Blue-Blue pairs would be extremely good. On second thought, I'm going to put separation onto the "probably not a balanced power" table. I think, actually, that Red-Blue is by far the most likely pairing. Think about it from a game design standpoint. With really any, but definitely with more than one, Red-Red pairing, you run the risk of the game ending very quickly. For Town, every successful lynch is a double success, but every mislynch is a double mislynch. Balanced, sure, but much more susceptible to a dramatic swing (even the hypothetical SK, which as you say is a swingy force in general, has a doubled impact) that ends the game early. Less fun, yes? With all Red-Blue pairings, though, the game is still balanced, but in a more dynamic and fun way. In such a case, certain mislynches are mitigated by half-a-mislynch worth of dead Scum. On the other hand, a Vig who takes a random shot and nails a Scum also kills a Townie. Neatly, but dynamically balanced, where Town doing something well still benefits Town, and Scum doing something well still benefits Scum, but both to a slightly reduced degree. Does this make sense?
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Post by gnarlycharlie on Nov 18, 2011 14:47:20 GMT -5
OK, one more post and then I'll ease up and let someone else talk for a few hours; boy, was I amped to start this game! Initial Thoughts: - This game, as described so far, is a much smaller game than the number of players suggest. With the collar pairing, our pool of 24 is actually a pool of 12. A 12 person game is small indeed. - This leads me to speculate to the possibility of a separation mechanism. It's only speculation, but I would not be surprised to find it crop up. Especially since... - We should expect a mix of Red-Red, Red-Blue, and Blue-Blue Pairings (Psychopath(s) will probably be paired with Blue, but who knows right?). If the game were all Red-Red and Blue-Blue pairings, then the game would essentially be a 12 person game with pairs playing the same role. The Red-Blue mix is where things would get interesting since, in essence, there exist Blue Players that we must eliminate (barring a separation mechanism). - If separation is a thing, then separation of Red-Red pairs is extremely bad. Conversely, separation of Blue-Blue pairs would be extremely good. On second thought, I'm going to put separation onto the "probably not a balanced power" table. I think, actually, that Red-Blue is by far the most likely pairing. Think about it from a game design standpoint. With really any, but definitely with more than one, Red-Red pairing, you run the risk of the game ending very quickly. For Town, every successful lynch is a double success, but every mislynch is a double mislynch. Balanced, sure, but much more susceptible to a dramatic swing (even the hypothetical SK, which as you say is a swingy force in general, has a doubled impact) that ends the game early. Less fun, yes? With all Red-Blue pairings, though, the game is still balanced, but in a more dynamic and fun way. In such a case, certain mislynches are mitigated by half-a-mislynch worth of dead Scum. On the other hand, a Vig who takes a random shot and nails a Scum also kills a Townie. Neatly, but dynamically balanced, where Town doing something well still benefits Town, and Scum doing something well still benefits Scum, but both to a slightly reduced degree. Does this make sense? there would still be Blue-Blue pairings since Blue would outnumber Red. it is possible though again due to the gastardness warning that the number of Town equals the number of Scum but the latter have a wincon other than the usual equaling or outnumbering town. this could also make it more possible for there to be an SK. balance may not be as affected as it seems at first glance. the SK would be more apt to kill in the beginning but would be more careful in later rounds as killing someone might cause his'her own death.
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Post by sachertorte on Nov 18, 2011 14:56:09 GMT -5
I think, actually, that Red-Blue is by far the most likely pairing. Think about it from a game design standpoint. With really any, but definitely with more than one, Red-Red pairing, you run the risk of the game ending very quickly. For Town, every successful lynch is a double success, but every mislynch is a double mislynch. Balanced, sure, but much more susceptible to a dramatic swing (even the hypothetical SK, which as you say is a swingy force in general, has a doubled impact) that ends the game early. Less fun, yes? I see what you are trying to say, but functionally, if we had all Red-Red and Blue-Blue pairings, then the game is functionally equivalent to a 12 player game. There is no "dramatic swing." It's like if you multiplied all baseball scores by 2. That 12 to 2 game "looks" more dire than the exact same 6 to 1 game, but at its core they are equivalent. An all Red-Red Blue-Blue game would be standard mafia. Red-Blue is my expectation at least to some (if not all) degree. The problem is 'mislynching' a Blue who is paired with Red isn't a mislynch at all. Any Blue Player paired with a Red Player MUST DIE. In fact, that player WANTS to die (even if he doesn't know it). This is wacky and I don't know what to think about it regarding balance. Furthermore, if we theorize an all Red-Blue (and obviously Blue-Blue as well). Then that puts Red in a weird position where if they don't know the pairings, then their night kill can hurt themselves, which is wildly different than a normal game. I think you are thinking about the game with too much perspective on the 'old ways.' All Townies are NOT alike. Blue-Blue Townies are valuable. Townies linked to a scum are not valuable at all*. In fact they MUST DIE and should WANT TO DIE. This is a strong separation from the traditional game. The idea that a Vig killing scum but getting Blue collateral damage is "balanced" in the sense that it helps scum a bit too is simply wrong. There is no way (unless we have separation mechanics) to eliminate that Red scum without losing the blue, so it can't be considered a loss in that respect. Town wants to kill all Red-Red and Red-Blue pairs. Period. The win condition makes this explicit. * Now I'm envisioning strong Town Powerroles linked to Red players, which would force us to remove powerroles in order to win. Intriguing and unsettling.
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Post by Pollux Oil on Nov 18, 2011 15:47:52 GMT -5
The thing is, you guys are making a huge assumption: that all lynches and kills detonate collars. The Night 0 color says: As always the main point of the show, two teams red and blue fighting for victory and around each man, woman and psychopath's neck, that special wedlock collar. Each collar containing just enough explosive to remove a head with at least a 5' scatter radius. And of course, each collar randomly linked to someone else in the camp. So if one goes, they both go. It doesn't give any indication that lynching or Nightkilling are collar detonations. It does state that IF a collar goes, it takes out the other collar with it. Nowhere is there a clarification that a collar detonation goes hand in hand with lynching and Nightkilling. Now, it wouldn't surprise me if the scum maybe have a one-shot to detonate both collars, or there is some sort of mechanism in play that detonates collars. Right now, though, we don't have any evidence of one way or the other. All these theories may not even apply. I'm not saying we shouldn't discuss them, because it's something to keep in the back of our mind. But we definitely shouldn't plan the lynch around the idea that two people are going to die until we know for sure we're taking two people out. I've never seen Wedlock, but I looked at the wiki page and it seems like the collars only detonate if the prisoners separate from each other, not on death. So it's something to think about.
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Post by sachertorte on Nov 18, 2011 16:08:57 GMT -5
I disagree with your interpretation. The "they both go" statement meaning every kill kills someone else is a reasonable interpretation. Characterizing it as "a huge assumption" is off the mark. Quite frankly, if two people don't die at the end of Day I'll be extremely irate.
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Post by sinjin on Nov 18, 2011 16:09:06 GMT -5
Wow, I haven't seen this much actual conversation on day 1 of Day 1 for a long time. Good job Cat*
I just went back and reread the sign up sheet and was going to post something similar to what Pollux just posted and since there is so much speculation I'll go straight to the Cat's mouth:
Do linked collars explode on lynching, vigging, and or NK'ing
*Obligatory massaging of the mod's ego.
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Post by sinjin on Nov 18, 2011 16:14:31 GMT -5
I disagree with your interpretation. The "they both go" statement meaning every kill kills someone else is a reasonable interpretation. Characterizing it as "a huge assumption" is off the mark. Quite frankly, if two people don't die at the end of Day I'll be extremely irate. And I'm an idiot. I read the first paragraph twice and didn't read the following statement "they both go" either time.
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Post by scáthach on Nov 18, 2011 16:14:57 GMT -5
The thing is, you guys are making a huge assumption: that all lynches and kills detonate collars. The Night 0 color says: As always the main point of the show, two teams red and blue fighting for victory and around each man, woman and psychopath's neck, that special wedlock collar. Each collar containing just enough explosive to remove a head with at least a 5' scatter radius. And of course, each collar randomly linked to someone else in the camp. So if one goes, they both go. It doesn't give any indication that lynching or Nightkilling are collar detonations. It does state that IF a collar goes, it takes out the other collar with it. I originally read that as "if one player goes they both go" but actually I think you may have a point. I'm still inclined to believe that the lynch is going to be a collar explosion though, if only because the colour says "the main point of the show <snip> that special wedlock collar".
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