Death By Irony
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The Former Mandate of Heaven/Current Gastard Night Mod
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Post by Death By Irony on Feb 25, 2008 14:24:06 GMT -5
Guess this means I totally need to start revisiting the stuff I had thought about regarding Endgame scenarios.
Goon A/Goon B/Goon C - Would actually end in a draw for all three factions, now that I think about it. With an Open Setup they would be able to deduce the roles of the other players and there'd be no point in voting. Town loses.
Goon A/Goon B/Goon C/Town - Again, it would be fairly obvious about who's left and I see little point in wasting a Day playing Four-Handed. So either: 1) Draw for all parties involved (i.e., "happily" ever after). 2) Everybody loses.
Goon A/Goon B/Town - Factions A and B draw, C loses, Town loses.
Goon/Town/Town - Standard Three-handed, regardless of the Town players' roles.
Anybody else can think of any other scenarios?
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Post by Hawkmod on Feb 25, 2008 14:27:13 GMT -5
My concern is this game will not end cleanly. There are a myriad of scenarios in which town members will be alive for the end game, but unable to win. For example, lets say the final day there are 2 scums and a town remaining. How is the town member supposed to act in that case? Are they supposed to throw the game to one scum over the other?
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Post by Hawkmod on Feb 25, 2008 14:27:53 GMT -5
Heh. you answered my concern while I was posting
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Post by Hawkmod on Feb 25, 2008 14:29:34 GMT -5
Any case with scum equal or greater then town is going to cause issues.
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Post by sachertorte on Feb 25, 2008 15:32:34 GMT -5
My feeling was that the game would continue until there is a winner or 2 scum of different factions left.
I agree that if town ends up in a position where there is only one Town left, there is no chance for a Town win. However, there is still fun to be had. The Town player has a hand in determining who will win... or pushing a stalemate (two scum factions left)*.
Also, if three singleton scum remain, then they need to lynch one to reach the 2 scum shared win condition. Kind of stupid, and there is no reason not for a pair to just arbitrarilty collude, but it does eliminate one faction from the 'win'.
Four-handed has similar issues, but needs to be played out (quickly) so that the pair of winners can be determined.
I think we shot ourselves with the singleton immunity. We didn't want scum eliminated in the early game by cross-kills, but we neglected to consider the ramifications of scum nightkill immunity in the end-game. Ooops.
* I know I talked with DBI about this during planning, and I was wrong. I think I said that 2 singleton scum factions would share the win. Now that I think about it more, I'm inclined to think that 2 scum alone should be a Town win. Too late to change it now, but for future reference, it might be interesting.
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Death By Irony
FGM
The Former Mandate of Heaven/Current Gastard Night Mod
I'm my own mind-altering substance!
Posts: 109
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Post by Death By Irony on Feb 25, 2008 16:24:47 GMT -5
Well, we can discuss alternate win conditions after the game is over.
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RoOsh
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Post by RoOsh on Feb 25, 2008 17:01:54 GMT -5
Why not just Bastard Mod a warning: "The Nightkill immunities of Scum are slowly fading, and within 3 Lynching Days they will disappear"
This will be sufficient warning, and it'll put a fire under scum's arses to try to get the other two Scum lynched before hand (especially if their night kills went through- because they'd be worried then that they might have been targeted by scum previously. I think it'd be amusing and it'd stave off the idea of a stalemate, AND it could even give a town a chance of victory during the Night in a 3 or 4 handed game.
There's no rule against changing rules during a Game, is there?
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Post by sachertorte on Feb 25, 2008 18:01:15 GMT -5
Changing the rules now would be quite bad. The rules aren't excessively broken, merely inconvenient towards a single faction win. Nothing worth getting upset over. I only state my ideas with the goal of opening up new ideas for future games. This game's ruleset is done and fixed (in my opinion).
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Death By Irony
FGM
The Former Mandate of Heaven/Current Gastard Night Mod
I'm my own mind-altering substance!
Posts: 109
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Post by Death By Irony on Feb 25, 2008 19:34:05 GMT -5
Maybe once the game becomes unresolvable during the Day, I'll lift the crosskill immunity and let the scum go at each other? ;D
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Post by Pollux Oil on Feb 25, 2008 22:15:13 GMT -5
Personally, I think the game should resolve itself in any situation and you shouldn't lift the cross-kill immunity.
All the scum know about the cross-kill immunity and what could happen if the numbers get down to just scum left. If they end up in a draw situation, it's they're own fault for not trying to get the other scum lynched.
Plus any scenario you've listed is completely negotiable and should be fun for anybody involved. The game shouldn't end until there are two people left standing.
Goon A/Goon B/Goon C - The three goons left should be able to still lynch somebody. Sure, they know they're all goons left but they're still able to play for the two-scum-faction draw.
Goon A/Goon B/Goon C/Town - This puts the town in an interesting position. They can negotiate who to lynch and have a say in which scum wins. Plus, if the remaining town is a weak doctor, they can get a goon from the faction they can't protect against lynched, and it opens up a whole new ball game for the third scum group. Do they kill the townie that night and take the draw? Or go all in, don't kill the final townie and go for broke for the complete win the next day?
Goon A/Goon B/Town - Again, in this position the town can decide which scum faction wins, or the scum can decide to draw. It'd be interesting to see the scum battle their own greed, perhaps.
I know Roosh once pointed me to a game on mafiascum where the final day was one town and two scum from different factions, and the day ended with the two scum battling out on negotiating towards who the townie should vote to lynch instead of settling for a draw. It was an awesome ending because the scum that ended up winning revealed himself as scum like three Days prior in the game but still ended up surviving (and subsequently winning) because of immunity to Nightkills.
It's up to you but I think just letting the game play out to complete finality is fine.
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Post by Hawkmod on Feb 26, 2008 14:26:29 GMT -5
This might end like a season of Survivor. "He screwed you worse then I did, so I deserve to win."
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Post by CatInASuit on Feb 27, 2008 14:45:20 GMT -5
Isn't it wonderful to see the two remaining lesser doctors go toe to toe with two of the remaining townies, leaving the scum to play cheerleader on the side. I think Hal Briston and Santo Rugger are going to have a lot of problems later on if and when the two docs reveal
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RoOsh
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Post by RoOsh on Feb 27, 2008 17:55:50 GMT -5
Wait... Is Hal Scum? The Doctors have got me convinced he is..... -_-
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RoOsh
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Post by RoOsh on Feb 27, 2008 17:56:28 GMT -5
Ah.... Crap.
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Post by diggitcamara on Feb 28, 2008 12:23:59 GMT -5
I haven't given them the secret password yet. I'm waiting to see if they want to sit on the sub bench. (Again, sorry about the goof. ) Worst part about is, I caught the reason for the goof. But then, during the last Night, though we explicitly wanted to avoid unkillable scum as targets, I went on and targeted nesta anyway... <headslap>
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Post by CatInASuit on Feb 28, 2008 13:37:46 GMT -5
I haven't given them the secret password yet. I'm waiting to see if they want to sit on the sub bench. (Again, sorry about the goof. ) Worst part about is, I caught the reason for the goof. But then, during the last Night, though we explicitly wanted to avoid unkillable scum as targets, I went on and targeted nesta anyway... <headslap> Do you want to explain that to the rest of us and who thinks Santo Rugger is going to get lynched tonight then?
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Post by sachertorte on Feb 28, 2008 15:53:52 GMT -5
I think Hal Briston will ultimately get lynched. Though my logic rarely follows that of the rest of Town. I was shocked by the Diomedes and Hockey Monkey lynches in You-Solve-It mess.
Hal Briston has consistently behaved anti-town. Ironically, that is probably his best defense. But ultimately, Town needs to establish, for this game and future games, that anti-town behavior can not be tolerated by Town. It makes the game too hard for the future. As it is, I see scum hammering sometime in the future and referring to Hal Briston's situation here as the excuse. "I didn't know. Just like Hal didn't know in 3 kingdoms" That will suck.
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Post by sachertorte on Feb 28, 2008 16:03:05 GMT -5
And while I'm on the subject of mafia as a continuum of games rather than isolated instances of a game, I feel very strongly about consistently lynching MHaye as a general rule. His playstyle bothered me in Sekham as he was very quiet all Day and held back a vote until the end of Day. I found this behavior scummy, and even though he turned out to be Town in that game, I see now that it is impossible to distinguish MHaye (townie) from MHaye (scumbot) because the play style is so easy to replicate as scum. In fact, when I was scum that's precisely what I wanted to do. I really didn't want to put out a vote until I could see where things were going. I didn't want to put out an opinion that I would be held accountable for later. So what does one do? Lynch Late Voters! My new motto.
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RoOsh
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Post by RoOsh on Feb 28, 2008 23:20:01 GMT -5
When we played Firefly Mafia, I tried to get Tragic to emulate Mhaye's voting style down to a T. Because when I was townie I HATED his voting style. So when I was scum, I realized it was the most genius thing ever. And it gave Tragic so much townie cred, as she "looked" active- posting about 2-3 times but always in the last 24 hours and easily voting for the majority or one-off voting to hide, but no one questions it, because it becomes "Their habit". ~~~ The only thing though about Hal I see though, is yes, in future games it may get those who hammer lynched- but he's not the first. P.Rugger the Godfather was the one who used it to such an extreme as scum, but no one in this game seems to remember that. And the thing I fear though, is as soon as that rule starts to be enforced, the first thing I would do as scum is simple: I'd never hammer, but then always cast guilt on the one that hammers. And then I'd try to refer back to old games such as S.Rugger's extreme hammering as a reason to pro-vote those who hammer, OR use Hal briston's example of misguided hammering, to defend my scum if they did hammer. That's the problem, EVERYTHING has 2 sides, and 2 examples where you can point to it: "X helped the town here, and Y hurt the Town here. X was done by scum; X was done by Town." It just comes down to can you argue, and can you remember the examples that help your side best. In this game the only key to victory is the realization that Scum do NOT want attention, but the only way to get there is to have the perfect knowledge.... I just don't understand why people have NOT been going after Cookie at all from yesterday. Ever since NAF on Day 1, I've been somewhat suspicious of Cookies, and no one else is following up on this lead....
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Post by sachertorte on Feb 29, 2008 9:10:40 GMT -5
I'm not saying Hal should get lynched for being the hammer, but that he should be lynched for hammering before a consensus was reached that it was appropriate to hammer. Hammer itself is not bad; early hammer is. Hal's problem is he hammered without warning. Obviously someone has to hammer, but the point is the hammer should be more careful. State intention to hammer first so objections can be heard. Hal "accidentally" hammered, which is an entirely different fish than what should normally happen.
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RoOsh
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Post by RoOsh on Mar 1, 2008 1:24:23 GMT -5
I think Hal just signed his death warrant by voting for Storyteller.
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Post by diggitcamara on Mar 1, 2008 1:39:29 GMT -5
Worst part about is, I caught the reason for the goof. But then, during the last Night, though we explicitly wanted to avoid unkillable scum as targets, I went on and targeted nesta anyway... <headslap> Do you want to explain that to the rest of us and who thinks Santo Rugger is going to get lynched tonight then? Sorry about that. Yeah, the last Night we decided we wanted to eliminate scum from our prospective kill list. My fellow scum proposed nesta as a viable kill, and I should have vetoed him. Thing is: Once I saw the Heaven's voice had goofed about NAF's alignment, I metagamed that there was a reason she had goofed. The reason, I wagered in my own mind, was that NAF shared the first letter of his name with someone who actually was scum. And if you scan the name list, you'll notice there are only two players whose names start with the letter "N". I didn't mention it in our thread because it's pure metagaming (and poor style to use it), but maybe we'd have chosen a different target, had I remembered my own thoughts...
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RoOsh
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Post by RoOsh on Mar 1, 2008 11:43:37 GMT -5
Thing is: Once I saw the Heaven's voice had goofed about NAF's alignment, I metagamed that there was a reason she had goofed. The reason, I wagered in my own mind, was that NAF shared the first letter of his name with someone who actually was scum. And if you scan the name list, you'll notice there are only two players whose names start with the letter "N". Well played, I assumed that there was a reason too that NAF was the Goof, but I couldn't figure out what it could be. I didn't think about the first letter connection at all Nice Job of trying.
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Post by Hawkmod on Mar 2, 2008 22:49:39 GMT -5
Um. I think Dio posted in the wrong forum.
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Post by Boozahol Squid, P.I. on Mar 2, 2008 22:56:07 GMT -5
Crap. I did.
Maybe nobody else saw it?
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Post by Hawkmod on Mar 2, 2008 23:02:41 GMT -5
Wasn't up too long.
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RoOsh
FGM
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[on:Wanna see a magic trick?][of:See You, Space Cowboy....]
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Post by RoOsh on Mar 2, 2008 23:25:48 GMT -5
What was posted?
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Post by diggitcamara on Mar 2, 2008 23:40:16 GMT -5
Hawkeye, I killed you because you pinged my scumdar hard when you were being so obtuse about me and piratepete's comments to each other. It was fun too. And here's a little documentary clip of our hunt of hockeymonkeyEnjoy!
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Post by CatInASuit on Mar 3, 2008 10:40:16 GMT -5
Well barring any slips, it looks as though Hal Briston will get lynched.
This will leave 3 scum, 2 doctors and 2 townies.
I wonder who will get knocked off tonight.
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Post by sachertorte on Mar 3, 2008 10:41:59 GMT -5
So Santo Rugger has picked up a new habit of putting down the hammer-1 vote. I wonder who will hammer.
I'm thinking that Cookies and MHaye will be afraid to hammer. storyteller will be cautious, but he's been crazy suspicious of Hal all game, so a hammer seems plausible.
piratepeteV2 has stated disinterest and lack of availability to hammer Hal.
With 4 mis-lynches in a row, the game is essentially over for the Town. They just need to determine which faction wins.
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