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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 16:07:31 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Jan 25, 2009 16:07:31 GMT -5
How about:
1) Most points 2) Most #1 votes 3) Most #2 votes 4) Got last #1 vote first
That guarantees a clean tiebreak, rewards players for voting early and probably reflects the opinions of the town best.
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 16:09:12 GMT -5
Post by special on Jan 25, 2009 16:09:12 GMT -5
How about: 1) Most points 2) Most #1 votes 3) Most #2 votes 4) Got last #1 vote first That guarantees a clean tiebreak, rewards players for voting early and probably reflects the opinions of the town best. vote this
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 16:18:13 GMT -5
Post by tdpatriots12 on Jan 25, 2009 16:18:13 GMT -5
Just to be clear, I'll
vote Rysto's plan[/color]
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 16:18:20 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Jan 25, 2009 16:18:20 GMT -5
Something that I'd like to suggest is that whenever anyone votes, they provide an updated vote count including their vote. The reason for this is transparency. I want every player to acknowledge that they know exactly how their votes have affected the game. This will remove any wiggle room scum would have to say, "well, I didn't realize that my votes would cause him to get lynched."
On the other hand, it also provides scum with the information they need to manipulate the voting. I don't think that this is a big downside, though, because if the scum want this information, they'll collect vote counts themselves. I know that in T2, we scum were always very aware of the current vote count at critical times.
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 16:18:29 GMT -5
Post by roxis on Jan 25, 2009 16:18:29 GMT -5
I agree with Rysto's method.
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 16:22:48 GMT -5
Post by sachertorte on Jan 25, 2009 16:22:48 GMT -5
Point of order.
The choosing of "most first votes" as the tie-breaker mechanism assumes a Borda count a priori. In order to choose "most first votes" we have to have decided on Borda count first. It seems that we will, but we haven't yet.
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 16:23:37 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Jan 25, 2009 16:23:37 GMT -5
How about: 1) Most points 2) Most #1 votes 3) Most #2 votes 4) Got last #1 vote first That guarantees a clean tiebreak, rewards players for voting early and probably reflects the opinions of the town best. I'm going to appoint this as our official tie-breaking method. That also means that the Borda Count will stay. And since the 5/2 is so far ahead, I'm just going to declare it winner.
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 16:26:06 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Jan 25, 2009 16:26:06 GMT -5
I like Rysto's tiebreaker.
I'm not as happy over the suggestion that I have to do math whenever I vote, but I can probably live with it.
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 16:34:35 GMT -5
Post by Merestil Haye on Jan 25, 2009 16:34:35 GMT -5
For those discussing tiebreakers, consider the effects of Borda on your proposed tiebreaker. If the count is NAF 24 and story 23, and I vot #1 story and #2 NAF, they both reach 26 points at the same time. Who gets lynched in the first vote and last vote tiebreakers? To answer that for my proposal, NAF gets lynched because before you voted he had more points than Storyteller did. Consequently you might wind up switching your second and third votes to manipulate Storyteller into the lead, then later revising your vote to exchange your second and third votes, which would mean the tie would be broken in favour of Storyteller.
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 16:40:32 GMT -5
Post by Merestil Haye on Jan 25, 2009 16:40:32 GMT -5
How about: 1) Most points 2) Most #1 votes 3) Most #2 votes 4) Got last #1 vote first That guarantees a clean tiebreak, rewards players for voting early and probably reflects the opinions of the town best. And now I see the purple posting is over. I'll admit that I'm not 100% clear on exactly what the number 4 criterion is. Do you mean "The first person to receive a top vote," or "The most recent person to receive a top vote" or something else?
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 16:40:45 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on Jan 25, 2009 16:40:45 GMT -5
I like 5-2[/color], and have no opinion on the rest of it.
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 16:45:50 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Jan 25, 2009 16:45:50 GMT -5
How about: 1) Most points 2) Most #1 votes 3) Most #2 votes 4) Got last #1 vote first That guarantees a clean tiebreak, rewards players for voting early and probably reflects the opinions of the town best. And now I see the purple posting is over. I'll admit that I'm not 100% clear on exactly what the number 4 criterion is. Do you mean "The first person to receive a top vote," or "The most recent person to receive a top vote" or something else? The way I interpreted that was: If Player A and Player B are tied in points, have the same amount of #1 votes (#X), and the same amount of #2 votes, the player that received #1 vote #X first gets it.
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 16:46:03 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Jan 25, 2009 16:46:03 GMT -5
I'll admit that I'm not 100% clear on exactly what the number 4 criterion is. Do you mean "The first person to receive a top vote," or "The most recent person to receive a top vote" or something else? Let's say that story and NAF are tied in tiebreakers 1, 2 and 3, and both have 5 first votes against them. Whoever received the fifth #1 vote first is lynched.* * Assuming no unvotes.
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 16:58:21 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on Jan 25, 2009 16:58:21 GMT -5
How about: 1) Most points 2) Most #1 votes 3) Most #2 votes 4) Got last #1 vote first That guarantees a clean tiebreak, rewards players for voting early and probably reflects the opinions of the town best. Yeah, What Rysto Said[/color]. Also, I'm quite down with Town voting their ones, twos, and threes sincerely, and not gaming the vote. I'd furthermore like to see everyone sign on to this plan, because I think the temptation for scum for try and game it will likely be irresistable at some point, and I wanna nail them on it. So, yeah. I, at least, will be going hard after any player that looks to be manipulating the count.
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 17:12:02 GMT -5
Post by Merestil Haye on Jan 25, 2009 17:12:02 GMT -5
Doesn't work.
Sooner or later you're faced with a situation that your number 1 scummy candidate could be lynched, but only if you don't vote for the person in second place, who you think is unlikely to be SCUM. So your second and third votes are for people in no danger of being lynched.
My suggestion would be that rather than throw away a potential tool, demand an accounting for votes and lynch if it isn't forthcoming.
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 17:20:05 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Jan 25, 2009 17:20:05 GMT -5
But if you think the person in second place probably isn't scum, you wouldn't vote for him anyway. So how is that manipulating the count?
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 17:25:14 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Jan 25, 2009 17:25:14 GMT -5
Unless, mhaye you meant "your second choice" rather than "the person in second place", but why would someone be your second choice if you think they're unlikely to be scum?
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 17:34:49 GMT -5
Post by peekercpa on Jan 25, 2009 17:34:49 GMT -5
And because I said I would. For past games
1. Vote Nanook
2. Vote Hal
3. Vote the Punker (I don't like punk music so it's a good placeholder for me).
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 17:36:42 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on Jan 25, 2009 17:36:42 GMT -5
Doesn't work. Sooner or later you're faced with a situation that your number 1 scummy candidate could be lynched, but only if you don't vote for the person in second place, who you think is unlikely to be SCUM. So your second and third votes are for people in no danger of being lynched. My suggestion would be that rather than throw away a potential tool, demand an accounting for votes and lynch if it isn't forthcoming. What Kat said. And quite frankly, if you've got information on somebody solid enough to justify gaming the vote and taking the results on yourself, you oughta be able to back it up when I come after you. Yannow, something like, "I'm a Mason, and so is that guys ass I just pulled out of the fire". When it's one vote-one person, you vote for who you think is the scummiest, and see where the chips fall. I'm always suspicious of anyone that games that system by saying "well, out of the two top getters, I think playerx is scummiest" (even though I've done it), and given that borda has greater potential to be gamed, I think it behooves us as Town to come down harder on those who appear to be gaming the system. You are Town, aren't you, Mhaye?
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 17:38:48 GMT -5
Post by The Real FCOD on Jan 25, 2009 17:38:48 GMT -5
The Inaugural Official Vote Count! (This is the format I plan to use..if anyone has a problem with it please let me know.) Votes: Player | Vote 1 | Vote 2 | Vote 3 | peekercpa | Nanook | Hal Briston | crazypunker |
Totals: Votee | Total | Voters | Nanook | 3 | peekercpa 1st | Hal Briston | 2 | peekercpa 2nd | crazypunker | 1 | peekercpa 3rd |
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 17:56:05 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Jan 25, 2009 17:56:05 GMT -5
Looks good to me.
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 18:08:52 GMT -5
Post by Merestil Haye on Jan 25, 2009 18:08:52 GMT -5
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I know what I was thinking but it looks like it doidn't make it onto the post.
Let's suppose that the votecount currently stands like this.
Storyteller 22 points. NAF 21 points.
I've been arguing consistently that Almost Human is the SCUMmiest SCUM that ever SCUMmed up a Mafia game, followed by Brewha and then NAF. I've also been clear that Storyteller has not been acting in any way SCUMmy. My vote is currently placed accordingly.
I suddenly switch my vote, moving NAF to third, AH to second and Brewha third. Why? To ensure NAF is lynched, rather than Storyteller.
Your policy would require me to vote for AH and let Storyteller get lynched. I will not be bound by that policy because I believe it wrong.
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 18:18:59 GMT -5
Post by peekercpa on Jan 25, 2009 18:18:59 GMT -5
And I have to caveat my vote just a touch. It seems that as town we get a heck of a lot of town on town violence just because folks are talking. That certainly does not make a lurker scum or a heavy poster town. But I have found in Nannok and Hal's case that they do show up with some rather insightful analysis if prodded. And it is typically insightful, to me at least. And GD this is not a stinking snuggle.
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 18:20:41 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on Jan 25, 2009 18:20:41 GMT -5
My point is, if you bust out something like that near dusk, then rather than let the will of Town be realised, you've instead made a unilateral decision. And I say again, if you've information solid enough to justify that unilateral decision, that info should have been out long before "storyteller" was close to being lynched. I would contend that your opinion on "storyteller" doesn't qualify as solid enough to justify your play there.
I respect you as a player, but not so much that seeing you pre-empt a lynch because you disagree with it isn't going to make me very very nervous, and I will be taking vote-gaming into account.
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 19:19:03 GMT -5
Post by Merestil Haye on Jan 25, 2009 19:19:03 GMT -5
That's fine.
But I tell you now that I refuse to accept an arbitrary policy restricting my freedom to vote in any way I see fit, rather than say nothing and spring it on you suddenly when the situation arises.
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 19:38:29 GMT -5
Post by Holy Moley! on Jan 25, 2009 19:38:29 GMT -5
I'm gonna wait and see what actually transpires vote-wise before weighing in on this topic, although I largely agree with KidV. This board is kinda infamous for its last-minute blindsides (just ask Zeriel and Boozahol from "Skrull Planet", among countless others). The vast majority of them seem to have caught town, not scum; and what MHaye's suggesting could be catastrophic unless the swing votor was very, very sure of their grounds for suspicion (of either guilt or innocence).
That said, in a format like this, how likely is it that we'd have a lynch situation in which one single vote change could switch things around like that? The factor that seems to have been ignored is that scum can make last-minute votes as well. If it gets down to that "swing vote" point in the first place then it's already a town failure IMO.
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 19:45:29 GMT -5
Post by peekercpa on Jan 25, 2009 19:45:29 GMT -5
Ok. HAL Laboratories. Does this involve sheep? I've been watching the clouds pass by for a bit and am developing some disturbing visual images.
I'd say sheep doodle but it feels so out of place.
Yeeps.
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 19:55:56 GMT -5
Post by shaggy on Jan 25, 2009 19:55:56 GMT -5
hey everyone, Well in regards to the first three questions: 1: 5/2 2: Flip a coin 3: Sure i do not mind it
As for the Rysto's plan I am all for it.
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 20:01:22 GMT -5
Post by sachertorte on Jan 25, 2009 20:01:22 GMT -5
I don't think it makes sense to impose rules on how we vote in the borda system. Everyone should vote in the way they think is best and be prepared to defend their decision. If scum tries to manipulate the borda system, then it is our job to notice. Given MHaye's hypothetical, I think he's fine with doing what he says in shifting votes, but he needs to be prepared to defend that position and face the consequences should NAF turn up town but storyteller turns up scum. Timing of course would be important too. If MHaye did his hypothetical with 5 minutes remaining in the Day, I'd find it much more suspicious than if he did it 5 hours before the end of the Day.
Basically, I'm thinking we can't produce meaningful voting guidelines because we don't know all the situations we will face during the course of the game. Just do what you think is best and be prepared to defend your actions. That is, I'm not going to give anyone a free pass because he said here in this early part of Day One that he won't follow KidV's guideline, but if circumstances show that a particular voting quirk had a justifiable reason, then I think that is okay.
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 20:01:49 GMT -5
Post by brokentree on Jan 25, 2009 20:01:49 GMT -5
Day length I vote for 5-2 I like the one with the most first votes and I havenever tried borda
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