Day Four

[zuma]

FOS: Roosh

Role-fishing accusations on day 4

I don't know much about you bro, but I am not so sure about your loyalties

[sinjin]

Ok, just went back and looked at all of zeriel's posts and have found what I consider a pattern of willfull non-accountability and inconsistancy in voting.

Day one

1.32

I'm willing to get behind Atarus' modified plan. vote Pleonast for governor.

Meaning he finds Pleo suspicious. But he never, ever votes for him.

1.339

Atarus has posted exactly what I'd already planned to do.
vote mhaye

his very next post is:

1.467

The problem with only coming to this thread a few times a day is that people say what I wanted to say: I was making more or less the same points about CIAS as NAF was. I'm more happy with that than I was with my previous vote.
unvote mhaye
vote catinasuit

Italics mine. zeriel didn't make any points about CIAS.



1.482

I still think zuma's drunkplay is at the very least more hurtful to town at this point than anything other than CIAS's malfunctioning scumdar. Since a CIAS lynch is getting zero traction, and I like my own skin regular instead of extra-crispy,

unvote CIAS
vote zuma

So he votes for zuma, not because he thinks zuma's scum but because his drunkplay is "more hurtful to town than CIAS's malfunctioning scumdar." Why would he say that If he truely thought CIAS was scum who would have no need for scumdar? So in this one post alone he's essentially admitting that he's voted for two people he doesn't think are scum. Why would he do that? Oh it's right there in the next sentence: to save his own skin.

2.161

I'm leaning heavily towards a Diomedes or Hal Briston vote, given the general bad vibe one gets from unexplained lurking. Especially Dio, given the magic bag and the fact we KNOW he's active on the internets.

2.199 2:23 pm

I'm not voting today. I thought it was Wednesday, and I would have been voting for Diomedes anyway--although I will hang around the thread to see if there's any kind of last-minute push of Pleo over Dio.

So why not vote? And why were you worried about a last-minute push on Pleo? Who were you planning to vote for if the last-minute push actually happened?

N2.12 At 8:04 pm

Sorry, Dio. I'm going to go back over that and see what I can see--I was GOING to vote for you, even if I didn't.

N2.13 at 8:14pm

So I just remembered what was itching at the back of my head on Day Two about Dio--namely, the whole magic bag thing was a lot of inflation from a bunch of people. All he REALLY said was he had his mind made up for a vote, and then decided to think it over more when he saw the night kills. Then he disappeared.

I should've checked that before the Day was over, but this week in real life killed me.

ToMorrow, I think we might want to look at Roosh and drainbead--early yesterDay, they respectively started talking loudly about Dio's "magic bag" and started the voting on him.

I'm not saying I think they're both scum--I am saying that I feel really weird about the town's foci yesterday and I'm mulling over one of them. Someone else maybe want to look over how Pleo's votes accumulated and who the loudest voices were?

There are a couple of interesting points in these two night posts. One that in a matter of 10 minutes he realized that the whole magic bag thing was inflated and he was also able to figure out just who started it. But you were going to vote for Dio based on the magic bag, again not doing your own research and then pointing the finger at others.

The second point is in the last sentence. Why is he asking for someone to investigate Pleo voters on day two and who the loudest voters were? On both Day one and Day two much of the town was suspicious of Pleo. Note also that zeriel never defended Pleo on Day 2 and was suspicious of him on Day 1. Why would he want to accumulate evidence against Pleo voters at a time when only scum knew that Pleo was a colonist. It's almost as if he was looking for future scapegoats of the innocent Pleo.

3.74

This Roosh vs. Sinjin thing today is entertaining at least...Sinjin looked scummy to me after night two, and now roosh is talking today about not wanting for vote for Pleo again "because then on the voting records that shows nothing". That's a coin flip for who I'm going to vote for. Because frankly, even expressing the belief that your vote should say anything about you is scummy--the only thing a townie's vote should say is "I honestly believe(d) these people I voted for are scum". If you're trying to hide, you have something to hide.

So you honestly believed zuma and CIAS were scum? Go back and read your posts from day one.

Then

Tails, it's vote sinjin

Yeah that's a good reason. And you offer no reason to vote for me other than the 'hiding' thing when I was clearly NOT hiding.

3.161

By the same token, I DON'T find Pleo to be in my top scum candidates at this time, I don't think we need to lynch him or not lynch him, I just wanna shit or get off the pot, not wander back to the pot the next day etc.

Again with the non-accountability thing. He doesn't want to lynch Pleo or not lynch him. But he wants to s**t or get off the pot. So which is it? You've basically touched all bases here without advocating a single one.

N3.50

I have to agree with CIAS: Pleo had time for two investigations max, and we can guess one was probably Rugger. He also didn't vote on Day 3. This makes me inclined to believe that kassia guessed right--his second investigation was someone already dead, and with his own head in the noose he wasn't going to breadcrumb with a vote.

N3.71

drainbead: I was going off Roosh's vote summary on page 1 of tonight, since it was convenient--he has Pleo listed as "did not vote".

Given that, kassia and Roosh are both jumping up to the top of my list.

Yeah, don't do your own research, then you can blame your mistakes on others. I'm beginning to see a pattern here.

4.5

I'm choosing, at this time, to believe that Pleo was attempting to leave breadcrumbs.

vote kassia

4.65

I'm pondering switching to Roosh or Sinjin again. I think the more I look at it the less confident I feel about Kassia--although I think the most likely result is that Pleo didn't actually investigate her at all.

unvote kassia

I see a pattern of opportunistic vote jumping with little analysis and a careless disregard about whether people are scum or not.

Vote: zeriel

[sinjin]

Oh and sorry about not posting much. I've been grading papers and Christmas shopping.

[CatInASuit]

episodeofblonde said:

zuma said:

I originally read "conversed" as something that would happen if a replicant (Pleonast) ever investigated (interrogated?) a replicant. Although he said it could fool even blade runners. I dunno. There could be a human blade runner too, although I find that doubtful, but all in all it was kind of confusing.

I initially made the same assumption, that maybe Pleonast would activate it.

I'll put it out there, but I understand where CIAS is coming from in that respect.

Hmm, OK, I sorta see what you're saying here. I'm interested what CIAS2 thinks too, of course.

zuma v.2 got it in one. In order for atarus' info to make sense a Replicant has to "interact" with other people in some other way, whether pro-town or otherwise.

My guess is that an investigative role like this would be a trigger. Call it an assumption if you will. Now, because Pleonast was an investigator and Replicant, this should be enough to see through the nexus-9 and spot them for the Replicant they are.

So to me, if Pleonast encounters the Nexus-9, he would spot him.

And now the extra part. There is little point including these rules if Pleonast was the only Blade Runner. So, the logical follow on for this is that there is another Blade Runner.

Is there, personally, I don't know, but it's a reasonable assumption to make. This certainly isn't a call for them to come forward if they exist

[CatInASuit]

storyteller0910 said:

roosh said:

Could Pleonast, a Replicant, Activate the Nexus-9 By Investigating it? And thusly, would he know about the Nexus-9?

I love y'all, but some information about a given role is reserved for the possessor of that role. Or: no comment.

It's always worth asking I guess. Nice try Roosh.

[CatInASuit]

zuma said:

And no, Roosh, I don't think it's over yet either, but we'll just have to stop depending on cop investigations and such, and use reason and logic. I wasn't "role-fishing". I find it doubtful we have another cop after Pleo and Kat. I think we have a doc, and I'm sorry for insulting him/her, but they really should have protected NAF

A couple of things.

1. I agree with zuma v.2. We have to stop relying and waiting for the town power roles to come along and save us.

2. I think it is also unlikely that we have another investigator given Pleonast, although Kat was not strictly an investigator. If we are lucky, we have backup cop, although I doubt it.

3. To the doc, if we have one, just keep going and good luck.

[Parzival]

captainklutz said:

Night 3.67 Parzival

As to atarus's info/claim, I'm inclined to believe it since it fits with my analysis. atarus, is there anything that provides further clarification on how the Nexus-9 activation works?

Atarus claimed mason and gave info about the Nexus-9. I'm puzzled how this "fits in with my analysis".

Sorry for the delay in replying. I was referring to the Mason claim, since it underlies whether the Nexus-9 info is believable.

Scum have privileged information they want to hide, so do Masons. Furthermore, Masons^* often make a lot of pro-Town statements, since the info they do have helps the town, and it's an easier way to include it. My previous opinion of atarus gave me the impression he was genuinely pro-town or scum trying to look pro-town. The Mason claim is in line with that, so I believe it.

(Of course, the lack of a counterclaim by this point is also much in his favor.)


^*Or at least some Masons; they tend to split up their post patterns the same way scum do.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Nice case against zeriel there, sinjin. I eagerly await his counter-arguments.

On kassia and her newbie knowledge: I have been playing this crazy game with y'all here and on the Dope since last Spring. I was playing in two games during our commitment ceremony. Since I started playing, at least one out of every three car-rides home from work has consisted of me describing whatever quandary I was thinking over and the mechanics/rules involved. All that being said, we have both been trying very hard not to have any discussions regarding this game.

Vote drainbead

A great many of us have crappy voting histories with respect to lynching or voting for now-confirmed colonists, including myself. But, in combination with what I consider to be opportunistic behavior regarding kassia, it is enough for my vote.

er comments last Night regarding potential Pleo breadcrumbs, but not wanting to discuss them at Night really don't make much sense. There was nothing subtle or vague or needing to be carefully dissected about the fact that Pleo had consistently voted for kassia. It was right there in front of us all. I hesitated making the Night comment that I did because the correlation was so obvious. But hesitating to say anything about it because you are afraid to get killed? That makes no sense at all to me.

I want to be clear that I am not convinced of kassia's innocence, but she is in my "probably not scum" pile. drain's night comment strikes me as fishy regardless of kassia's alignment.

And lastly on a more visceral level, her self-defense posts just read/feel scummy to me.

[Parzival]

As for where my suspicions (and vote) lie Today I'm still leaning zeriel. To some extent I'm wondering if Pleonast did investigate him Day 3 but we'll never know the result, and on its own it may have just meant he agreed with my suspicions.

Some of what drainbead has said seems a little inconsistent (the "insta-vote" Day 3 seems strange given that she said she felt "at a loss" earlier in the Morning, in 3.6). Nothing seems particularly scummy, except for the inconsistency itself.


zuma, I'm with Roosh on the role-fishing. Insulting the doc when neither the role nor its possible mechanics have even been mentioned so far seems like a strong invitation to call him out. I'm mildly suspicious of you for it.

So zeriel is still my leading candidate, based mostly on what I said Yesterday (sinjin has also laid out a good case Today). I want to take another look back at what happpened to Pleonast to see if anyone else is a better candidate before I vote.

[CatInASuit]

Just thought I would raise this little quote by zeriel from Day 1. #257

Point the first: I have always hated the grammar slip accusations, mostly because I tend to strategize in the third person. =P

Question: What is the one thing I have yet to see zeriel do?

Answer: Strategize in the third person.

At this point, I would have no problems voting for either drainbead or zeriel.


Also, Captain Klutz: Do you think you can find a different reason for voting kassia now given Cookies' answer?

Now to look at everyone else and see what I can find.

[Santo Rugger]

Okay, I'm trying really hard not to become pigeon-holed into thinking Cookies is scum based on her Guv arguments, but something has struck me as quite odd in these two quotes.

cometothedarkside said:

<snip> I hadn't really looked at kassia closely until Pleo's death, but even after looking at her and possible Pleo clues about her, she is not very high in my suspects list.<snip>

cometothedarkside said:

<snip>
On kassia and her newbie knowledge: I have been playing this crazy game with y'all here and on the Dope since last Spring. I was playing in two games during our commitment ceremony. Since I started playing, at least one out of every three car-rides home from work has consisted of me describing whatever quandary I was thinking over and the mechanics/rules involved. All that being said, we have both been trying very hard not to have any discussions regarding this game.<snip>

The second one is something that I'd expect. My buddies hear way too much about Mafia, to the point that they don't give a shit about it, and generally try to change the subject when I start yapping about it. So, knowing that cookies and kassia have had frequent talks about specific Mafia games and situations is not surprising, and is, in fact, expected. However, the first post bothers me. I simply can't believe that cookies would be playing a game with her SO, and not really be looking at them closely. Roosh, et al (ie, those that know somebody irl that's playing), correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you look at those whom you know that are playing with a bit more scrutiny than the average poster?

Oh, and sinjin, I think if you reread my first post of the day you'll find something rather interesting.

[Zeriel]

A response for sinjin:

I am capable of getting caught in hysteria as much as anyone else, in regard to Dio. In regard to Dio and others, I have already said I haven't had as much time for this game as I thought was I going to due to work situations. Yes, I did think CIASv1 and zumav1 were both scum, I don't vote unless I think they're scum. I expect fully to be held accountable for a Dio vote as though I voted for him. I did think Pleo was acting scummy on day one, but after his claim and defenses, I didn't think he was--which is why I didn't vote for him.

I still think you and Roosh look pretty scummy. I think kassia's a nice fat question mark.

CIAS, I haven't had TIME to strategize--compare my language in previous mafia games.

Every time Pleo examined me in-thread, I came up looking pretty good. We know he had town's best interest in mind.

To be honest, I shouldn't be surprised--I'm a major town suspect every stinkin' game, and every time I've been a townie. Finding elements of my style scummy has in the past proven to generate false positives, I just wish you all would have learned that by now. =P

Either way, since I've been convinced by discussion to table the kassia-as-breadcrumb suspicion, vote sinjin. I will happily switch to Roosh, and will be happy to see either of them fry.

[Gir!]

captainklutz said:

I can't see a vanilla townie making that statement in their first game, so kassia is either scum or a power role.

Why not? I was a vanilla townie in the original Werewolf game, which was my first game, and I understood the mechanics of Night actions by the end of Day Three.

[CatInASuit]

zeriel said:

CIAS, I haven't had TIME to strategize--compare my language in previous mafia games.

Every time Pleo examined me in-thread, I came up looking pretty good. We know he had town's best interest in mind.

To be honest, I shouldn't be surprised--I'm a major town suspect every stinkin' game, and every time I've been a townie. Finding elements of my style scummy has in the past proven to generate false positives, I just wish you all would have learned that by now. =P

I hope your happy, I've just re-read through Sekham and Firefly to get a feel for your style.

Strategise in third person - yes, you do on occasion, but you generalise to the town or the scum or a scum. Using "the townies" as a phrase doesn't seem to appear though.

Then again, this is a fairly closed game with plenty of opportunity for strategy, but you seem not to have done any which can be considered scummy in its own right. The scum do not need to assist with town strategy, they have their own plans to sort out.

Also, linking your playing style to your role is bad and you were not as much of a target from those games as you think you were. Saying "my playing style makes me look scummy, but I'm a townie really" just sets my teeth on edge.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

pygmyrugger said:

I simply can't believe that cookies would be playing a game with her SO, and not really be looking at them closely. Roosh, et al (ie, those that know somebody irl that's playing), correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you look at those whom you know that are playing with a bit more scrutiny than the average poster?

I'm afraid you're leaning toward pigeon-holing. I love kassia and I know her very well, BUT, I have absolutely no idea how she plays Mafia. I would hope that people playing who know other players IRL do not let that knowledge impact their playing. Scrutinizing such players more aggressively risks the introduction of a negative bias and implies holding them to higher standards than other players.

I haven't been willfully ignoring her, or giving her a comparatively more generous helping of benefit of the doubt, and there are quite a few other players who I have yet to scrutinize closely and who have been the object of others' suspicions.

[CatInASuit]

zeriel said:

Every time Pleo examined me in-thread, I came up looking pretty good. We know he had town's best interest in mind.

Oh grief does this statement make me think you are scum.

Pleonast looked at you once, when analysing your Day 1/2 posting. (Day 3 #104). He did not say what he thought of you and the result was this.

Totals: scummy +4, townie -4, neutral 8.

Hardly what I would call a ringing endorsement, so how you can say you came up looking good is beyond me. You came up looking better than kassia and diggitcamara is all I will say.

[RoOsh]

pygmyrugger said:

Roosh, et al (ie, those that know somebody irl that's playing), correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you look at those whom you know that are playing with a bit more scrutiny than the average poster?

Since you asked, yeah. I know Tragic and Atarus from real life.
Tragic however, I've not spoken to in about... nearly 6months or greater (as I believe she's now currently in England). So in my mind, I tend to treat her just as I would any of you, just another player. But I feel bad making her upset. When she started playing in FF, I was one of the leading people to get her lynched for her inactivity, because I treated her as I would any other player. Since then, I've felt awful about that, and I do recognize her as a person I "knew" but it's always an afterthought. And this game, she's improved quite a bit, she's no longer as inactive and she's sharing ideas, albeit a bit later than I'd like, but she's talking and I'm noticing her. So I feel better this game and tend to treat her just like any of us.

Atarus is a different case. He's a very good friend and old college Roomate, and I often talk to him quite often during the weeks. However, I CONSTANTLY WIFOM with him to the point that its become a joke with the "Eyes on You" sorta thing. I can never trust the guy. Even as right now he's claimed mason, and he's uncontested, there's a gut part of me going... yeeeah... but he's the smart enough kinda guy who could try something crazy.
I don't like being screwed over by my friends, so I ALWAYS keep them in my mind, and I always distrust them for it. So i've found its easier to TRY to avoid talking about the games, unless it's from a highly general "spectator" view (commenting on how slow its been, or "wow that was gory" that sorta stuff). Anything that gets close to actually talking, I try to nip in the bud, as does he.
But it's always there. This sense of distrust. Heh, because I know him. He's a smart guy, and a brilliant mind. I like him quite a bit, and I know he's already a skilled player even if he's only played 2 games here. I instinctively Trust him, and for that reason I instinctively DIStrust him because I know I trust him. If that makes sense.
:shrug:

That's my 2 cents on the matter.

[RoOsh]

pygmyrugger said:

Oh, and sinjin, I think if you reread my first post of the day you'll find something rather interesting.

This to me... is VERY Telling.
How do you defend against it, Zeriel?
I know you stated You get overzealous... but that was "in regards to Dio"
Is that the SAME case now? Did you get overzealous again?

zeriel said:

I am capable of getting caught in hysteria as much as anyone else, in regard to Dio. In regard to Dio and others, I have already said I haven't had as much time for this game as I thought was I going to due to work situations. Yes, I did think CIASv1 and zumav1 were both scum, I don't vote unless I think they're scum. I expect fully to be held accountable for a Dio vote as though I voted for him. I did think Pleo was acting scummy on day one, but after his claim and defenses, I didn't think he was--which is why I didn't vote for him.¹

I still think you and Roosh look pretty scummy. I think kassia's a nice fat question mark.

CIAS, I haven't had TIME to strategize²--compare my language in previous mafia games.

Every time Pleo examined me in-thread, I came up looking pretty good. We know he had town's best interest in mind.³

To be honest, I shouldn't be surprised--I'm a major town suspect every stinkin' game, and every time I've been a townie. Finding elements of my style scummy has in the past proven to generate false positives, I just wish you all would have learned that by now. =P

Either way, since I've been convinced by discussion to table the kassia-as-breadcrumb suspicion, vote sinjin. I will happily switch to Roosh,⁴ and will be happy to see either of them fry.

I really really dislike your style. And you to me have been really inconsistent. My comments:

1. Wow. You point out you didn't vote for pleo. Yet... Post #161 from Day 3: "By the same token, I DON'T find Pleo to be in my top scum candidates at this time, I don't think we need to lynch him or not lynch him, I just wanna shit or get off the pot, not wander back to the pot the next day etc."
This to me... looks like a VERY Scummy thing to do. You stated back in Day 3 that you didn't find someone very controversial to be Scummy. You then state, you DON'T CARE if he gets lynched. The whole "shit or get off the pot" just REEKS as an argument, because that's pretty much a "Let's Lynch the guy and get it over with" sort of statement. But you would manage to avoid suspicion if you just stand by and encourage others to vote him. Which is what happens in your above posting. Now that we've lynched pleo, and we've got the blood on our hands, you pull out your "hey wait! I didn't lynch him, guys! YOU did" card. That whole reminder that you didn't vote for pleo is misleading, because you weren't exactly pro-NOT lynching him either. To me, that just looks terrible. Especially because it's hypocritical, which i'll come back to later in this post.

2. What the crap is up with "Strategizing in the third person"
I don't get it. Why would you NEED to strategize in the 3rd person to begin with. It's such an odd thing to say/do, and it doesn't explain why you DID it in Day 1 then. You did it once in Day 1, and then nothing... but it's such an odd thing to say "I haven't had TIME to strategize" why... Why would you NEED to strategize? Wouldn't your discussions with US in public be considered strategizing? This to me, just... makes no sense and I don't really understand it. If you want to explain, please do. What strategy? When do strategize normally?

3. Oh do we now. Hindsights 20/20. Glad to see you've suddenly become such a pleo fan now. You got examined once, and as I recall, he gave you a HUGE ass neutral score, one that I commented on for its oddness. But now suddenly, you're looking great in Pleo's eyes. The same person you advocated "not lynching" but I didn't see you sticking up for him then. You just wanted him shat out or make the town move on to a different target. That to me... is the biggest thing i dislike right now.
--Yesterday, you didn't care WHO got lynched it seemed, you just wanted the problem dealt with. You were happy to try to one-off your votes on your mechanical action- either Sinjin or Roosh. As long as someone ended up dead.
-That's either A. Reckless.
-or B. Really really scummy.
Especially since today now, you bring up your Towniness again and again, in your spiel, and using it to give you Townie cred- your interactions with Pleonast, even though they haven't been seen in a clear light at all. To me, it feels like you're quick to point your fingers at the people who lynched him, but you yourself know you weren't the biggest supporter of him either. You were content in wasting your vote rather than backing it up. Since according to you on Day 3- you pretty much didn't care WHAT happened to pleonast. As long as something got done. That "shit or get off the pot" comment really strikes me as just the bastard bystander making snarky comments while shit goes down. It wouldn't be so bad on its own, but now the next day you're pointing at the pleonast lynchers, and painting yourself to be a better person for it, really just irks me.

4. At this point, it's ridiculous. WHAT HAVE WE DONE?
Sinjin and I are both Suspicious to you. I got that. You keep mentioning that. But you got nothing to state more than that. No posts, nothings. So i went and checked out your last 20 of 55 posts to see where you mentioned your suspicions of us and what went down.

Night2.21- you call out my name, said I made a big deal out of Dio at the start of Day 2. Announce this is the start of your analysis.
Day 3.74- The next time my name is mentioned by you. This is where you state officially WHY we're so scummy:
--Sinjin looked scummy to me after night two, and now roosh is talking today about not wanting for vote for Pleo again "because then on the voting records that shows nothing". That's a coin flip for who I'm going to vote for. Because frankly, even expressing the belief that your vote should say anything about you is scummy--the only thing a townie's vote should say is "I honestly believe(d) these people I voted for are scum".
--... So sinjin DID something on Night 2. and I didn't want to vote for pleo 3x in a row, but wanted to place my vote elsewhere. Fine. So you rate us as equally scummy apparently. I would eventually go on to agreeing with you actually. I did go back to voting for pleonast, and then when asked where my OTHER vote would have gone had it not been pleo, I mentioned that as well (because others also agreed with me, that just voting for the same person without talking about anyone else is also really not helpful for us). But I guess I can't have it both ways. But that's fine. So I did that. What else did you discover. And I wonder what did Sinjin do that was so scummy on Night 2??

3.160: Accountability problems my ass. I will continue to vote the higher of sinjin or roosh until one is dead then the other is dead, unless either of them change my mind or someone puts new info out there to make me suspect someone else.
--So you've discovered nothing knew in the last whatever amount of days, since you're still sticking with the sinjin vote. Wow. Ever so helpful, ain'tcha, Zery?
3.161- the Shit on the pot comment.

Night 3. 50- you state that Kassia was probably right. Pleo wasn't going to breadcrumb with a vote.
Night 3.71- You point out that Kassia and Roosh go to the TOP of your suspicion lists for the typo i made (i left of Pleonast's voting of Kassia on my voting chart).
--Yeah, i made a mistake there. :shrug: So I get some heat for that, I'll take it.

Day 4, Reply #5 (That's FIVE)- You vote for Kassia, as you believe Pleo must have breadcrumbed.
4.65 -You state no, it's probably not kassia. And that pleo must not have even investigated her (this is a huge jump, without even considering perhaps investigated and simply NOT breadcrumbed. You just jump from "Breadcrumb!" to probably "Not investigated".
4.101- Oh look! It's the return of the mechanical action! You vote Sinjin. I guess you'll keep doing that unless either of them change my mind or someone puts new info out there to make me suspect someone else.
So basically... you ain't doing SHIT. Just telling the rest of us to do stuff FOR you.
This kinda pisses me off. Because you're not being helpful by stating "hey, I'm just gonna vote for A or B, until YOU guys give me a reason to stop." You're putting all the burden of proof onto US as a town to lead you along to a suspect. And then you get to pick yes or no. And no matter what, you come out smelling fresh as daisies. Because if they're scum, then "Hey! You knew it and you voted for them!" and if they turn out not guilty, you can do EXACTLY what you're doing right now. You'll either get to say "Well, it wasn't my fault, you guys were the ones that FOUND him suspicious, not me" (since you're stating that you're not gonna change your patterns unless the town convinces you to do so). OR If you don't vote for an innocent person but the rest of us do, you're gonna do what you're currently doing: sitting back on your ass and chastise the voters for voting for the Townie, and sticking with your mechanical action.

You're not helping the town, Zery, when you sit there and state that you find 2 people suspicious, but you will do no arguing or debating or anything to help out the cause. You'll only defend yourself, and wait for the rest of us to do Your work For you. It's lazy, unhelpful, and scummy. Especially when you use it to paint yourself as such a pro-town person ('because of past games'). You should know better, each game is a fresh start. I don't give a damn if you've ALWAYS been town in the last 40 games. That doesn't mean you can't be scum THIS time around. Each game is its own fresh system, and each person gets equal share of the suspicion from the start. Otherwise, you're basically just pulling up the Dotchan defense, "I just look scummy, but I'm always town! Trust me!" and then put up little signs and comments everywhere lamenting how you've been Town all the times in the past. What's next? Are you gonna put it into your sig too, to remind us?
Cry me a River Tam. For someone who wants the town to "shit or get off the pot", you seem quite content to sit on your own little pot for Sinjin and I....

And that's my next issues:
--The reason you found me suspicious at first... was the Dio comment. I pointed it out later (as drainbead used this against me too). Stating that even though I didn't vote for Dio, I must have been suspicious because I said he had a "magic bag", and that by stating such a thing, I was encouraging others to vote for Dio. Drainbead used this against me, and youv'e mentioned it as a reason to look at me, and frankly i think it's stupid. But if you're going to keep using it, then why not look at yourself. As i mentioned earlier, your comments are along the SAME vein. If my stating that Dio's got a "magic bag" is suspicious, then what do you make of your "I don't care if we lynch him or not, let's just shit or get off the pot" comments? It's JUST as encouraging of voting for someone, and I frankly dislike it.
Especially then when you come back to stating that you didn't vote for pleo, and shouldn't be held to blame for it either. That to me goes from being an an uncool comment, to one that becomes scummy.

--And Sinjin. You keep VOTING for sinjin...but in your last 20 posts, you've ACTUALLY NEVER FORMALLY Declared WHAT it is that you find scummy about sinjin. Me okay, I get it- I said "magic bag" and I made the typo. And I fought with sinjin for your entertainment. But what'd she do? At this point I'm curious... because I was quite anti-sinjin but only because of her actions with pleonast. Now that I know pleonast's alliance, my arguments vs sijin have dissipated.
But this isn't the case with you. As you've stated, you will always vote her until the town provides you with a better suspect or better reasons to vote for someone else (and apparently they haven't done anything like that enough for your liking).
But... I still wanna now know:
What's so scummy about sinjin?
It's one thing to state someone is scummy, and to harp that you find them scummy, it's another thing to actually TRY and get them lynched, and to actively take a hand in PARTICIPATING with the rest of us in this game.... Right now I just see you as pointing to sinjin, and myself, but you never really seem to give reasons or allow us to defend ourselves, or to do anything at this point.
Right now, you're just actively acting scummy. You speak up but only to defend yourself, and to mention that you find one of 2 people scummy, but you never give reasons why you feel that way, nor do you really try to convince the rest of us of your thoughts. You're acting WAY too passive, while actively communicating nothing.


And for that Reason, I want to UNVOTE Drainbead.
And VOTE Old Man Zeriel as the scummiest person here, with Drainbead at #2 now in my book.

--I get the image of you as a cantankerous old man just rocking in your chair there, whittling soap while we're running around trying to find scum. And every so often you pipe up and make some snarky comment to the rest of us. And then when we ask you for help, you just wave your soap carvings and talk about how busy you are carving your soap, acting too busy to help out. But then you complain about the Town not doing a good enough job, and talking about the good old days and all that nonsense....

So Zeriel, why don't you take your own advice get off YOUR damn pot.
Explain: What's so scummy about Sinjin? Convince US to vote for her.
Do you believe there was a breadcrumb or not? What are your thoughts on pleonast 's investigations then currently, as you feel he didnt' check out Kassia? And do you really feel like there's been no new information? Atarus's masonhood claim and his Nexus-9 information did nothing for you⁵? And what about your own neutralness in Pleonast's eyes? Do you really feel that you're cleared even with the highest neutral score?


5. This is why I just can't believe you're resorting to your "i've heard no new information so i'm gonna go back to voting for Sinjin/Roosh" It seems like utter bullshit to me, because I'm finding that I'm discovering new information all the time. The fact that you're not, is surprisingly odd.

[Captain Klutz]

episodeofblonde said:

Klutz, I am suspicious of kassia because of her being a Pleo-crumb. I'm not convinced that what you pointed out is evidence of her having a night action - what do you think of CIAS2's objection to your claim here? I think that new players shouldn't be assumed to be ignorant of basic game mechanics...

As I replied to CIAS2, Night actions are a basic game mechanic that anyone would know. However, the subtle detail of precisely when that information is obtained is not. I don't see it as intuitive and the certainty with which it was said told me that she must have a Night action.



Cookies, I can certainly understand that you have discussed other games with kassia, but again, it seems an odd detail to be mentioned (or remembered).



Death By Irony 4.87

Or maybe kassia did her homework and read up on previous games such as that aforementioned Conspiracy or Firefly?

I read most of the SDMB games (and some on other sites). That particular subtlety escaped me (even when playing), until I actually had a Night action.



Kat 4.102

Why not? I was a vanilla townie in the original Werewolf game, which was my first game, and I understood the mechanics of Night actions by the end of Day Three.

I'm curious - how did you find out the timing of when results are received?

[CatInASuit]

captainklutz said:

I read most of the SDMB games (and some on other sites). That particular subtlety escaped me (even when playing), until I actually had a Night action.

I'm going to ask a really dumb stupid CatInASuit question?

Considering that most games on the SDMB have had players waiting "patiently" for all Night Actions to be in, so they can be processed and the game continued, when else would you get the results of any Night actions but at the end of the Night?

The middle of the Night, the start of the Night, as soon as you make them?

What did you think happened before you found out?

[Captain Klutz]

I thought they would be reported toward the end of the Night, around the time of the dawn post (but not necessarily after). So, after awaiting all the Night instructions, the mod determines the results, sends them out and does the dawn. I imagined some short time for scum to at least report any results to the others, but no, they must wait until the following Night. Now for most players the precise timing doesn't actually make a difference, but for scum it does. This is why it pinged.

So yes, I thought they were reported at the end of the Night (as you said in your question). However, they are actually reported at the start of the Day (which is not quite the same thing).


And I really wish kassia had been allowed to respond to my question first.

[Drain Bead]

I'm in trial today at work and don't know when I can get to a computer much past 9 AM, so I don't want to screw over the town by delaying my role claim too much if I'm still in the lead by a lot. Can we get a vote count ASAP?

[CatInASuit]

captainklutz said:

I thought they would be reported toward the end of the Night, around the time of the dawn post (but not necessarily after). So, after awaiting all the Night instructions, the mod determines the results, sends them out and does the dawn. I imagined some short time for scum to at least report any results to the others, but no, they must wait until the following Night. Now for most players the precise timing doesn't actually make a difference, but for scum it does. This is why it pinged.

So yes, I thought they were reported at the end of the Night (as you said in your question). However, they are actually reported at the start of the Day (which is not quite the same thing).


And I really wish kassia had been allowed to respond to my question first.

Umm, since when did the scum have to wait until the following Night to report??

In all of the games so far, the results of the scum night actions have been added to the scum boards, for them all to see at the end of Night/start of Day.

The only instance I can see this happening is if the scum have a proper investigative role who cannot divulge their result until the scum are allowed to reconvene the following Night. As we haven't had one of those yet, Cookies role in Firefly was too character specific with an obvious result, I think you have said more than you meant to.

I will add you to the list of scum alongside zeriel and drainbead.

[CatInASuit]

Unofficial Vote Count

drainbead (3) - CIAS v.2, zuma v.2, Cookies
zeriel (2) - sinjin, Roosh
Kassia (2) - drainbead, captain klutz
Captain Klutz (1) - episodeofblonde

Come on people, we need more votes in here, we only have a day and a bit to go.

[zuma]

zeriel said:

I did think Pleo was acting scummy on day one, but after his claim and defenses, I didn't think he was--which is why I didn't vote for him.

I didn't notice this until Roosh quoted this post by zerial

My opinion of Pleonast was the opposite of zerial's. I (well, zuma1) did not like the Pleonast pile-on on day 1, based on what I'd experienced in previous games, where a vocal townie got jumped on. However, I found Pleonast suspicious as all get out after his role-claim, then amended role-claim, and his confusing strategy which has been discussed ad-nauseum regarding "confirmed town". And finally the now-apparent breadcrumb regarding Santo Rugger looked damning to those of us who were not aware of the restrictions placed on Pleonast.

A few of us were openly speculating that Pleonast was actually trying to get lynched due to his actions (and this is no smear on Pleonast, Storyteller[/b] put him in an unenviable position).

But to say that Pleonast did not seem suspicious after day 1 strikes me as strange. Not just strange, but bizarre. I was truly worried he was trying to get lynched and so did others. It makes sense now that we know of his restriction imposed by the mod, and what was his apparent hope of being resurrected by NAF.

[Drain Bead]

Ugh.

Role claim or not, folks? You tell me. I have about fifteen minutes before I'm AFK, and while I might have a chance to post it at lunchtime, I also might not. If I can't, it'll only give less than 24 hours to discuss it. I have the whole thing typed out and ready--I did that Sunday.

[Captain Klutz]

catinasuit said:

Umm, since when did the scum have to wait until the following Night to report??

In all of the games so far, the results of the scum night actions have been added to the scum boards, for them all to see at the end of Night/start of Day.

The only instance I can see this happening is if the scum have a proper investigative role who cannot divulge their result until the scum are allowed to reconvene the following Night. As we haven't had one of those yet, Cookies role in Firefly was too character specific with an obvious result, I think you have said more than you meant to.

I will add you to the list of scum alongside zeriel and drainbead.

Actually, in Firefly, the results were not added to the scum boards (well, the snitch on Day 2, from a failed kill, was. Investigative results weren't) .

And yes, Cookies role in Firefly is the exact one I was thinking of. I was surprised that Cookies couldn't say anything until the following Night (which is why we developed a simple code so she could tell us during the Day). Perhaps you can now see why kassia's statement pinged.

[CatInASuit]

captainklutz said:

catinasuit said:

Umm, since when did the scum have to wait until the following Night to report??

In all of the games so far, the results of the scum night actions have been added to the scum boards, for them all to see at the end of Night/start of Day.

The only instance I can see this happening is if the scum have a proper investigative role who cannot divulge their result until the scum are allowed to reconvene the following Night. As we haven't had one of those yet, Cookies role in Firefly was too character specific with an obvious result, I think you have said more than you meant to.

I will add you to the list of scum alongside zeriel and drainbead.

Actually, in Firefly, the results were not added to the scum boards (well, the snitch on Day 2, from a failed kill, was. Investigative results weren't) .

And yes, Cookies role in Firefly is the exact one I was thinking of. I was surprised that Cookies couldn't say anything until the following Night (which is why we developed a simple code so she could tell us during the Day). Perhaps you can now see why kassia's statement pinged.

Hmmm, given that Cookies role only had two results, dead River Tam or not dead River Tam, I would have thought the results of her investigation would have been obvious from the start of Day post. Its not like she could determine a power role was it?

I will wait for further clarification from Cookies on this one in case I am missing something else.

[zuma]

drainbead said:

Ugh.

Role claim or not, folks? You tell me. I have about fifteen minutes before I'm AFK, and while I might have a chance to post it at lunchtime, I also might not. If I can't, it'll only give less than 24 hours to discuss it. I have the whole thing typed out and ready--I did that Sunday.

Well, now that you've revealed you have a claimable role, you're a target of scum if you're town. I'd have waited for the 24 hours to discuss, and it's unfortunate you've done this now, and I would have waited, but you pretty much have to fully claim now.

I even find it suspicious you're claiming non-vanilla at this point, but be that as it may, I guess you have to claim now. Hopefully you're just a mason.

[storyteller0910]

DAY FOUR VOTE COUNT (PAGE FOUR)

drainbead (3) - CatinaSuit v. 2.0, CometotheDarkSideWeHaveCookies, zuma v. 2.0
zeriel (2) - sinjin, Roosh
kassia (2) - drainbead, Captain Klutz
Captain Klutz (1) - episodeofblonde

Eight votes have been cast; the Day will end in approximately 32 hours, at 5:00PM EST on Tuesday, December 11.